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teagone posted:You should be comparing the Snoke/Kylo Ren dynamic to the OT's Emperor/Vader dynamic, not the PT's Sheev/Anakin character dynamic. Pitting Snoke against PT Sheev isn't a fair comparison considering how integral Sheev is to the PT's story. Snoke, by comparison, is just a prop for Ben's story, much how the Emperor was to Luke's in ROTJ. The comparison of character roles is almost 1:1 between Snoke/Emperor in TFA:ESB and TLJ:ROTJ. I feel like that's how you should approach Snoke's character. Expecting him to be super nuanced is fine, but I don't think it was necessary since the ST clearly is supposed to be Ben and Rey's story much how the OT was Vader and Luke's. The Emperor wasn't a prop for Vader in ANH. Vader was just a monster at that point, imagine how lovely ANH would have turned out if they tried to shoehorn in some of the stuff about Anakin/Sheev we got in the PT, but it's only exposition by Tarkin and Obi Wan. That's how Snoke feels. And I'm getting more and more amazed that the argument against Snoke being a lovely character is that he is a lovely character, apparently. I am just not able to look at the way he was introduced and handled in the ST and go "good enough".
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Jan 13, 2021 05:23
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indigi posted:this is rationalization. nobody knew the FO could track them through hyperspace, so this isn’t why he sacrificed all the bombers; he did it to prove he’s mister big dick TLJ would have been improved by this comeuppance being more explicit I think It would still suffer from not finding a good way to link Poe learning to trust versus Rey learning to grow past Luke, but it would be a start.
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Jan 13, 2021 05:49
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Grendels Dad posted:The Emperor wasn't a prop for Vader in ANH. Vader was just a monster at that point, imagine how lovely ANH would have turned out if they tried to shoehorn in some of the stuff about Anakin/Sheev we got in the PT, but it's only exposition by Tarkin and Obi Wan. That's how Snoke feels. The Emperor wasn't even a character in ANH. I made a clear distinction that Snoke's appearance in TFA is more akin to the Emperor's appearance in ESB. The Emperor exists in ESB as an exposition dump that bolsters Vader's character. [edit] Grendels Dad posted:I am just not able to look at the way he was introduced and handled in the ST and go "good enough". We just disagree about the purpose of Snoke's character on a fundamental level I guess. I enjoyed the reveal of him just being some punk-rear end bitch in service to Ben's story. teagone fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 05:54
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It was pretty clear from the start that the sequel trilogy is terrified of establishing context and stakes, possibly as an overreaction to the prequels, but then they just keep doing it and seem equally terrified of acknowledging the previous movie. You really are supposed to be a cranky, concussed toddler at Disneyland- shut up and enjoy the flashing lights and smiling people, oh gently caress oh poo poo here's the stuff you remember never mind none of that mattered, oh hey have a fun twist on things oh gently caress oh poo poo no no nevermind that doesn't matter, look it's luke and han and yoda and please stop being mad and buy our toys oh gently caress we forgot to make anything new to make toys of
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Jan 13, 2021 06:14
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teagone posted:
I guess we do. My gut reaction to the reveal was the same, but as with so much of the ST, thinking about it afterwards made it seem cheap and lazy.
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Jan 13, 2021 06:17
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You really are supposed to be a cranky, concussed toddler at Disneyland- shut up and enjoy the flashing lights and smiling people, oh gently caress oh poo poo here's the stuff you remember never mind none of that mattered, oh hey have a fun twist on things oh gently caress oh poo poo no no nevermind that doesn't matter, look it's luke and han and yoda and please stop being mad and buy our toys oh gently caress we forgot to make anything new to make toys of Lmao, I won't deny this is absolutely how Disney handling Star Wars has felt.
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Jan 13, 2021 06:17
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teagone posted:Lmao, I won't deny this is absolutely how Disney handling Star Wars has felt. The entirety of Disney's time with the Star Wars franchise has been Kathleen Kennedy slowly going insane trying to figure out what the gently caress Star Wars fans will actually like enough to stop being mad over and the answer is loving nothing. Star Wars Fans deserve nothing but a size 37EEE hiking boot delivered straight to their face by that rocket sled that evaporated a car on that one episode of MythBusters.
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Jan 13, 2021 06:36
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The only Disney Star War I don't like are Rogue One and Solo, otherwise everything else they've produced has ranged from fine to my favorite Star War ever, lol. [edit] Oh poo poo, I forgot Episode 9 exists  gently caress that movie.
teagone fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 06:49
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Because I hate myself I watched one of those Youtube videos about how The Last Jedi is terrible and one of their criticisms crystallised a lot of the fervent hate of the film. They complained about how Fin didn't have a character arc in TLJ and posited their own replacement. What they suggested went a little bit like this: "Fin should fight Phasma and lose because his power level is lower, then he should learn some new skills and powers and fight her again and draw, then he should learns some new power and fight her for a final time and win and complete his heroes journey" What this narrative genius described is a videogame, and not a very good one. This "superior" replacement arc is about Finn increasing his power level until he exceeds the bad guys power level, then he wins. It's not a character arc, Finn doesn't change perspective, doesn't learn anything, doesn't come to new understanding. He just gets better skills. Finn's actual character arc has problems, especially if one wanted him to take more of a centre stage, but it's still a proper arc. He starts off with a certain perspective, learns throughout the story the flaws in that perspective, and develops and changes his world view and becomes a changed person and still manages to get a climactic fight in. This youtuber was arguing a that the films should have been more simplistic, and more boring. A lot (not all, chill) of the criticisms revolve around this kind of thinking; Luke should have been a cool badass, Poe should have been a cool badass. All these characters should have been always right, and just got more powerful, until they're more powerful than the bad guys. Then they win. Anything more complex than that is "ruining my ChilDhOoD" Plus, I still don't get how The Last Jedi gets more poo poo about Finn than Rise of Skywalker. Again, there are problems with the interpretation in TLJ, especially considering the wider context BUT, at least he still does something and has an arc. ROS just has Finn standing around in the background until it's time for him to scream REEEEEEY for no reason. His one interesting line "Rey, I have something to tell you..." seems to be an editing mistake, as it's never followed up on. Also, to add to the Snoke discourse. I love TLJ but I think a minor flaw (and yes, it is minor) is that they don't fill out Snoke's backstory before killing him. Yes, the Emperor also didn't have that level of background originally, but, Star Wars is a different now, and TLJ is a sequel to 6 films that did explain all of that. It wouldn't need much, just a few lines to flesh out who he is instead of farming it out to the EU. But the decision to kill him was a good one, because Ren is the far more interesting character.
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Jan 13, 2021 06:54
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I agree that Ren was by far the most interesting character, but that is very much an observation made after the fact. Being interesting is not a finite resource and Ren turning out interesting doesn't make it ok that every other character is kinda bad.
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Jan 13, 2021 07:14
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Karloff posted:Also, to add to the Snoke discourse. I love TLJ but I think a minor flaw (and yes, it is minor) is that they don't fill out Snoke's backstory before killing him. Yes, the Emperor also didn't have that level of background originally, but, Star Wars is a different now, and TLJ is a sequel to 6 films that did explain all of that. It wouldn't need much, just a few lines to flesh out who he is instead of farming it out to the EU. But the decision to kill him was a good one, because Ren is the far more interesting character. I feel like any way you could fill in a backstory for Snoke, without taking away from his shallowness which adds to his status as a crumbling facade before getting murdered as part of Kylo Ren taking control as the main villain would be strange. Within the events of the film, having this information being provided at I guess the Casino Planet would be a way to weave it into the overall lines of information without muddying up any of the other stories (have Snoke explained by Luke or Kyle Ren to Rey would add more gravitas to Kylo's act as "rebellion" rather than the new hotness punting away the literally old and busted imo). And people love to talk about the pacing of TLJ as it is.
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Jan 13, 2021 08:21
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Make the Casino Planet Snoke's homeplanet, it would at least explain the robe.
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Jan 13, 2021 08:26
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Karloff posted:They complained about how Fin didn't have a character arc in TLJ and posited their own replacement. What they suggested went a little bit like this: "Fin should fight Phasma and lose because his power level is lower, then he should learn some new skills and powers and fight her again and draw, then he should learns some new power and fight her for a final time and win and complete his heroes journey" Even in Episode 9, a version of Phasma who knows that the First Order will turn on her the moment she's no longer useful would have made a lot more sense as a spy than Hux. Finn being in contact with her throughout the movie would also have been a better secret for Finn to keep rather than just being Force sensitive or in love with Rey or whatever.
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Jan 13, 2021 08:27
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karmicknight posted:I feel like any way you could fill in a backstory for Snoke, without taking away from his shallowness which adds to his status as a crumbling facade before getting murdered as part of Kylo Ren taking control as the main villain would be strange. Within the events of the film, having this information being provided at I guess the Casino Planet would be a way to weave it into the overall lines of information without muddying up any of the other stories (have Snoke explained by Luke or Kyle Ren to Rey would add more gravitas to Kylo's act as "rebellion" rather than the new hotness punting away the literally old and busted imo). And people love to talk about the pacing of TLJ as it is. why not remove casino planet, make the whole movie feel less like the events take place over 45 actual minutes, and add in a couple scenes in the first half where characters just talk to each other without being epic or quippy so that they can just be like "yea snoke loving sucked he ruined everythings and heres how"
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Jan 13, 2021 08:34
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Because he's such a shallow character, Snoke's death has absolutely no impact. Is it Kylo finally getting revenge on the monster who corrupted him? Is it Kylo turning on another mentor because of his lust for power? Is it Kylo overthrowing a cruel tyrant, only to fail to break the cycle by taking his place? I have no idea what motivates him because his relationship to Snoke is barely sketched out. And without any idea of what Snoke or the First Order is like, the potentially interesting change of Kylo seizing power doesn't mean anything; what's he going to do differently? I don't know, because I don't know what Snoke was doing in the first place! I mean, sure, Rise dropped the ball on doing anything with that plot point, but it's as much of an empty mystery box as any of the things Last Jedi ignored and discarded.
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Jan 13, 2021 08:59
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It’s Kyle Ren taking charge of his life and acting on his own terms. For once he’s the master of his own destiny. Everyone has pulled him in every direction and it’s broken him. But rise never followed up because he immediately gets in cahoots with palpy.
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Jan 13, 2021 10:53
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indigi posted:this is rationalization. nobody knew the FO could track them through hyperspace, so this isn’t why he sacrificed all the bombers; he did it to prove he’s mister big dick Doesn't matter if nobody knew that the FO could track them because his actions still retroactively saved their asses. If the film wanted to convey that he hosed up or was in the wrong, then this was a bad way of showing it. It would have been better to show how his actions hurt the fleet and how admiral holdo was right to chew him out for it. If the aim was to show Poe being in the wrong, then the film goes about a poor way of showing that, which is my point. It keeps doesn't commit to its ideas
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Jan 13, 2021 11:19
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Yeah, "he couldn't have known that at that point" might technically be a good reason to chew him out... but he got proven right pretty much right after, making the whole thing a weak-rear end source for conflict. edit: he should have been more of a douche about it if that was his arc. When the FO catches up with them he could have gone "Well, it sure is swell those guys don't have a dreadnought, eh?" Grendels Dad fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 11:38
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teagone posted:Would mainstream media be too confused if in 2015 Disney released Star Wars: Episode X - The Force Awakens? well now it will be Star Wars: Episode X - The
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Jan 13, 2021 11:40
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The comedy option is the reboot of the sequel trilogy.
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Jan 13, 2021 11:44
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The wiki says 8 bombers and 4 starfighters were lost taking down the Dreadnought which had 200,000 personnel. That is just a massive victory. And even when the First Order used admin commands to spawn another fleet what were 8 bombers going to do against that? They had 3.75 Star Destroyers for every bomber. If they wanted Poe to do some reckless action that backfired maybe they shouldn't have had him massively succeed.
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Jan 13, 2021 12:00
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could those bombers have even fit in the rebel command ship? they seemed far too large for the hangar we see 
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Jan 13, 2021 12:18
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The movie's constantly wanting to have its cake and eat it too in alluding to wider context but not committing to any detail at all.
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Jan 13, 2021 12:29
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Isn’t Poe himself the one who calls it a fleet killer? Perhaps he was exaggerating
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Jan 13, 2021 13:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Isn’t Poe himself the one who calls it a fleet killer? Perhaps he was exaggerating Not impossible. But hard to tell, the ship is introduced as imposing and capable of great destruction.
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Jan 13, 2021 14:22
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One of the strong bits is the brief moments with the dreadnought's captain. Kind of a deal with TLJ is the individual scenes are often really good in a classic style, they just don't stitch together as a whole.
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Jan 13, 2021 14:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The movie's constantly wanting to have its cake and eat it too in alluding to wider context but not committing to any detail at all. Sounds just like how Disney operates tbh, lol.
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Jan 13, 2021 14:51
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I still don't really get why after Finn pretty graphically slices up his former brothers in arms for the whole rest of the movie, he just leaves his horrible boss alive.Edgar Allen Ho posted:Isn’t Poe himself the one who calls it a fleet killer? Perhaps he was exaggerating I thought he called it a planet killer anyways.
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Jan 13, 2021 17:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:I still don't really get why after Finn pretty graphically slices up his former brothers in arms for the whole rest of the movie, he just leaves his horrible boss alive. I actually had a different interpretation. I found Phasma's "end" in Force Awakens unnecessarily sadistic. Under threat of death the heroes manage to get what they need out of her, and rather than leave her, or even shoot her, they decide to drop her into a trash compacter where she will suffer a horrifying and painful death. Yes, she survives. But they didn't know that. As far as Finn, Solo and Chewbacca knew she would be spending her last moments in utter terror, screaming for help as the walls closed in, feeling all her bones getting crushed before the end came. The weird head movement she does when the trash compacter gets mentioned is meant to be funny, but I just felt a swell of pity for her. In Revenge of the Sith Anakin slips further towards the dark side because he kills a unarmed (lol) man, but he does so quickly, and I imagine mostly painlessly. It is seen as unequivocally wrong in the series to kill a person at your mercy. Not only do Finn, Solo and Chewbacca do that, they take extra effort to make sure that the person they're killing suffers unnecessarily before hand. They committed a war crime is what I'm saying.
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Jan 13, 2021 18:09
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Everybody complains about Poe because he dared to have a military operation that took casualties in the middle of an active war zone and yet somehow nobody but me ever talks about how Leia didn't buy enough space gas that weekend before the fight even loving happened.
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Jan 13, 2021 19:14
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reignofevil posted:Everybody complains about Poe because he dared to have a military operation that took casualties in the middle of an active war zone and yet somehow nobody but me ever talks about how Leia didn't buy enough space gas that weekend before the fight even loving happened. Look, they were surprised by the FO and had to get out of there fast. Never before has a vastly superior military force ambushed a resistance force's hideout like that, they were totally caught with their pants down. Ninja edit to say that they were probably as surprised as the viewer, since they ended the last movie with an overwhelming military victory and then the next movie opens with the FO kicking their poo poo in.
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Jan 13, 2021 20:54
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Karloff posted:I actually had a different interpretation. I found Phasma's "end" in Force Awakens unnecessarily sadistic. Under threat of death the heroes manage to get what they need out of her, and rather than leave her, or even shoot her, they decide to drop her into a trash compacter where she will suffer a horrifying and painful death. Also, they blew up a planet
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Jan 13, 2021 21:04
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also it's difficult to fit Rey's multi-day training with Luke into the 3-6 hour chase timeline of the rest of the movie
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Jan 13, 2021 21:21
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It can sort of work if the almost totally detached storylines aren't going concurrently. Which it sort of has to to make the scroll credits work, because her story starts 5 minutes after the last movie but the Empire took over the entire galaxy in the time between movies. I guess the weird cross-galaxy conversations would have to go through some kind of time warp? Iunno.
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Jan 13, 2021 21:52
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reignofevil posted:Everybody complains about Poe because he dared to have a military operation that took casualties in the middle of an active war zone and yet somehow nobody but me ever talks about how Leia didn't buy enough space gas that weekend before the fight even loving happened. Leia getting pissed off at Poe for successfully blowing up the super duper battleship makes no loving sense. After the agonizing back and forth with Hux over the comm Poe flies in and specifically takes out the ship’s anti star fighter guns. Presumably because part two of this plan is for the bombers to fly in and destroy it. Once the guns are out Leia is like “great job Poe mission accomplished now let’s leave”. Poe seems rightly confused by this because the only possible reason for what he just did would be for the hilariously slow bombers that they already have deployed and ready to go to drop their bombs and blow up the ship. So Poe pretends not to hear what the senile aristocrat says and carries out the plan with complete success. But hey characters learning lessons is what happens in stories right so Poe needs to change and grow. Bad Poe. Reckless.
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Jan 14, 2021 00:51
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indigi posted:also it's difficult to fit Rey's multi-day training with Luke into the 3-6 hour chase timeline of the rest of the movie Particularly when she is having calls with Kylo to make it clear that this is all happening in one timeframe.
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Jan 14, 2021 02:08
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Here's a question - why the hell do they jump to the middle of nowhere in the first place? They didn't know they were being tracked, so presumably their initial plan was just "Fly to Crait, use the abandoned bunker there as our new base." But they don't hyperspace to Crait directly, instead they jump to the edge of the system and decide to do the rest of their travel at sublight, even though they know they barely have enough fuel to reach Crait.
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Jan 14, 2021 04:22
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Angry Salami posted:Here's a question - why the hell do they jump to the middle of nowhere in the first place? They didn't know they were being tracked, so presumably their initial plan was just "Fly to Crait, use the abandoned bunker there as our new base." Eh, I'm not too bothered by this because it's not a huge stretch to imagine they have bases and safehouses all over the place, maybe even ones stashed with resources. It's just that they can't go there when the FO is directly behind them. Or did they already mention going to Crait that early in the movie? It wouldn't surprise me.
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Jan 14, 2021 04:59
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Angry Salami posted:Here's a question - why the hell do they jump to the middle of nowhere in the first place? They didn't know they were being tracked, so presumably their initial plan was just "Fly to Crait, use the abandoned bunker there as our new base." maybe it’s a different fuel for hyperspace and sublight travel
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Jan 14, 2021 07:09
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indigi posted:maybe it’s a different fuel for hyperspace and sublight travel Yes and no! They mention that they only have fuel for one more jump when debating whether they should escape at the beginning, then the ticking clock element of the chase comes from them slowly running out of fuel. It could either be the same fuel and they simply don't have enough left for a jump, or they are running out of two kinds of fuel.
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Jan 14, 2021 07:21
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