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teagone posted:Ignoring the PT exists, how would you rate OT Emperor as a villain, then? Where did he get all his stuff? I think part of the issue people have with Snoke is there's not another prequel trilogy for the sequels to explain how Snoke got all his poo poo/came into power. The expectation of characterization isn't fair when someone like Sheev had a whole other trilogy to build up his character that we see in the OT. The Emperor didn't need the Prequel Trilogy to work as a villain. Everything that happened in the PT was already known to you by implication in the OT. You already knew he was Space Hitler. You already knew that he built the Galactic Empire out of the Old Republic. You already knew he was a powerful Sith who corrupted one of the best Jedi to be his henchman. I mean, we don't even call him Palpatine, we still just call him the Emperor, because the character was established more in the OT than in the PT despite him being a side character in the OT. In very important ways the Emperor and the Empire are the same. It is his creation and everything about the Empire reflects the Emperor. We know where he got his stuff because we can all fill in the blanks when people start tossing around words like Empire and showing you how this Empire is occupying even barely livable deserts like Tatooine. The Emperor's death in ROTJ is also the death of the Empire - they are symbolically and thematically linked, right down to both dying at DS2's reactor. Snoke's death is completely meaningless in the movie in which it happens, even ignoring ROS's revisions... his death isn't even the climax of the scene it happens in. It changes nothing for the First Order or the Galaxy. That's how little he matters, despite being easily the most powerful space wizard we had seen to date. Snoke didn't need additional movies, he needed a role and a purpose other than enabling Kylo Ren to avoid responsibility for his own actions. He needed to mean something to the First Order, and the First Order needed to mean something itself. Even ROS' "Snoke as Puppet" could have worked. "The rabble needed an Emperor...so we gave them one." something like that. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 08:34
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I think you'll find we call him "Sheev".
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Jan 14, 2021 10:31
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The emperor really benefits from the gracefully simplicity of the empire in the OT. They're the government, he's in charge. Snoke then is hurt by the relatively confusing nature of the first order. Are they rebels? Are they a regional government? A religious group? Are they a faction in the galactic government? What's snoke's role then? Local governor? Pope? Rebel leader? With palpy we know enough about him based on knowing about the empire that when he shows up we easily fit the details into the framework. With snoke we don't have that luxury
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Jan 14, 2021 13:40
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I feel like everyone is being too generous wrt the Emperor's characterization in the OT. TFA's opening crawl gives enough information of the First Order's goal imo:quote:Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. and what Leia is doing to prevent that: quote:With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. What more is necessary, and why? There's a small scale conflict going between Leia's Resistance and the First Order that eventually escalates when the Hosnian system gets blown up by Starkiller base. What I deffo feel could have been better explained in the films is what exactly the Hosnian system was comprised of and what the New Republic loses when it was destroyed. It sort of gets muddled in Hux's speech: General Hux posted:This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand, will bring an end to the Senate! To their cherished fleet! All remaining systems will bow to the First Order! And will remember this… as the last day of the Republic! But otherwise, I'm not sure what else the story needed to provide regarding the First Order's motivations.
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Jan 14, 2021 14:38
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Ahh I see, the First Order are a clan of assassins (???)
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Jan 14, 2021 14:46
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The First Order is an organization that exists solely so Disney can bring Star Wars back to the status quo of blue lasers vs red lasers and sell the same shaped toys to us again. If they had been smart the antagonists would have been a completely new threat from outside the galaxy or some kind of internal rebellion (maybe even have some interesting plot conversations about the old rebels now being the ones fighting against a rebellious force) but that would require someone besides JJ Abrams to write the script and welp
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Jan 14, 2021 14:55
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teagone posted:I feel like everyone is being too generous wrt the Emperor's characterization in the OT. TFA's opening crawl gives enough information of the First Order's goal imo: Those blurbs don't explain anything, though? Apparently the sinister FO is doing all kinds of other stuff on the side if Leia needs to form a resistance against the terror that is inflicted on the galaxy by... The FO's search for Luke? What? All that information does is inviting more questions, which is fine because it's the beginning of the movie. But then the movie doesn't answer a single one of these questions, apart from vague "Destroy hope" poo poo.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:02
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They're literally less fleshed out and understandable than COBRA.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:13
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The first order demonstrably doesn't give a poo poo about Luke. All their resources are oriented against the resistance and the republic, after which it turns out that actually you don't need a superweapon to keep the Galaxy in line with fear. ( Kind of a strange position, considering.) Luke also clearly doesn't give a poo poo about the First Order, at any point. The ST transforms him from an ideologue to a self obsessed shitter who only is roused by danger to his direct family. Since JJ had no idea what the first order should be the films are hopelessly confused from the start.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:19
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sequel luke rules actually
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Jan 14, 2021 15:21
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Blue milk gags are fun and all but he kind does Jack and poo poo and is objectively terrible to his family. Until a redemptive act washes all that away or something? Like father like son smh
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Jan 14, 2021 15:34
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Like everything else, TLJ Luke is trying to be provocative and surprising without any actual idea of what the wider context is supposed to be.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:04
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I personally think Snoke should have been cut out entirely and replaced with some charismatic but normal ex-Imperial. Kylo falling into his orbit because they have "some good ideas" would have been a nice departure from just rehashing Anakin's fall 2.0, and allowed for more growing tension as Kylo becomes more ambitious and FO leadership realize they're in danger of their own tool turning on them. It would have also been a nice deviation from the implicit lesson that the only people who matter on a Galactic level in SW are force users.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:11
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I think I said it in the Mandolorian thread, but I reckon a lot of the Force Awakens problems would have been tempered had the macguffin been the plans to Starkiller base and not the map to Luke Skywalker. Yes, that brings it even closer to ANH, but with a purpose. If the characters know from the start that the First Order are planning to take out the senate, the central tension of the first half of the film is "we need to get these plans back to the Resistance so we can stop that from happening". That way when Hosnian Prime gets destroyed at the mid-point it is this devastating gut punch - the heroes are too late! As it stands in the actual film, we learn about the Senate in the same scene as its destruction, we haven't been given enough dramatic context to really feel the impact. That way, going to see Luke at the end feels more meaningful as well. Have Leia actually know where he is, she wants to respect his wishes and leave him in solitude but with thing as dire as they are she feels she has no other choice to but to send Rey to get him. That's what I think at least, thank you for indulging my fan fiction.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:16
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Vernii posted:I personally think Snoke should have been cut out entirely and replaced with some charismatic but normal ex-Imperial. Kylo falling into his orbit because they have "some good ideas" would have been a nice departure from just rehashing Anakin's fall 2.0, and allowed for more growing tension as Kylo becomes more ambitious and FO leadership realize they're in danger of their own tool turning on them. Doing something potentially risky? You'll never make it at Disney with that attitude.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:18
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:If they had been smart the antagonists would have been a completely new threat from outside the galaxy  The absolute shittiest ideas from the EU are exactly this. The Yuuzon Vhong and even worse, the Charon.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:22
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The First Order is something that rose from the ashes of the Empire, which is incredibly vague seeing as how it's been 20 years. Are they supposed to be like the remnant factions in the EU, just former imperial staff who are trying to remain independent? Outside of Snoke, nobody really seems like they're old enough to have been officers in the Empire, and that'd also mean that the Republic has left them around for so long without being concerned about a rival regime that is apparently still in open war with them. Are they a bunch of fundamentalists with nostalgia for some kind of halcyon days of the old Empire? All their stuff is shiny and new, despite being exactly the same as old imperial equipment, so it's not like they found some old supply caches. Are they some kind of underground terrorist organization instead of holding territory? That would make sense with kidnapping child soldiers, but then why do the few civilians in the movie seem to instantly know about them and treat them as an authority? Where do they get the money for all of this junk? Why is Leia's task force for dealing with the First Order called the Resistance? Does that mean that they do already own the territory she's operating in, and the "Republic support" is supposed to be secret? Why is the famous politician from the founding of the Republic now a clandestine military leader? Where is the non-resistance Republic army? Where is ANYTHING of the New Republic aside from Leia's smattering of run-down ships? Surely there must've been SOMETHING of note built up in those 20 years. ONE YEAR LATER posted:back to the status quo of blue lasers vs red lasers Green lasers. Karloff posted:I think I said it in the Mandolorian thread, but I reckon a lot of the Force Awakens problems would have been tempered had the macguffin been the plans to Starkiller base and not the map to Luke Skywalker. Certainly people wouldn't get so put off by grumpy hermit Luke if the movie hadn't set up his coordinates to be the ultimate macguffin as if he's somehow gonna save the whole galaxy on his own. Ending on a cliffhanger as to what he's gonna be like just got everybody's expectations up.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:27
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teagone posted:I feel like everyone is being too generous wrt the Emperor's characterization in the OT. TFA's opening crawl gives enough information of the First Order's goal imo: The question isn't what does the first order want, though its a bit schizophrenic between "find skywalker" and "overthrow the republic." In practice they do the second far more than the first. The question is what are they? The empire is the government, that's easy to contextualize. We know what the first order looks like and acts like but we don't know what context they do it in. What is their position in the greater universe of the story?
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Jan 14, 2021 16:43
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They’re the precursor to the Final Order. Did you even watch the movies
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Jan 14, 2021 16:50
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SlothfulCobra posted:The First Order is something that rose from the ashes of the Empire, which is incredibly vague seeing as how it's been 20 years. Of course, none of this is clearly conveyed in the films. I incorporate the TV shows into my reading of the films, but none of the novels or comics. Because they don't supplement the films, they're written as apologism for all the ways they hosed up, patching "plot holes" and whatnot.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:53
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Halloween Jack posted:
Just because it was done poorly in EU books from 30 years ago (which are basically a half step up from fanfiction anyway) doesn't mean it couldn't have been written by someone who isn't a hack and can come up with a good antagonist instead of Bigger Emperor (and also the emperor).
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Jan 14, 2021 16:55
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Sheeev
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Jan 14, 2021 16:57
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Just because it was done poorly in EU books from 30 years ago (which are basically a half step up from fanfiction anyway) doesn't mean it couldn't have been written by someone who isn't a hack and can come up with a good antagonist instead of Bigger Emperor (and also the emperor). I have some bad news about the quality of writers selected for SW projects.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Like everything else, TLJ Luke is trying to be provocative and surprising without any actual idea of what the wider context is supposed to be. The issue with TLJ Luke is that he had to be written after and as a consequence of TFA Luke, who we already knew 1. had his star pupil and nephew turn to the dark side 2. had all his other pupils killed 3. went into hiding without telling his family. There's a very obvious answer to "why would this guy go into hiding and let the galaxy fall into darkness" which is "because he hosed up really bad and knows it". There's potentially other explanations but a lot of them require overlooking plot points in TFA. If he was kidnapped/lured into a trap why would R2 know about his location and keep it a secret for so long (and why wouldn't he just force message Leia for a ride home). If he went to find some ancient Jedi texts to learn sick new moves, why did he not leave any kind of message for his family and, again, why did R2 hide this for so long. There's also always the "he blamed himself for Ben's fall even tho it wasn't really his fault" but this is likewise an incredibly selfish and short-sighted to abandon everyone for so long until some girl he didn't know came and gave him a pep talk. Basically I'm unconvinced you can take the ending of TFA and turn that character who was running from his problems into a wise bad rear end.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:03
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It's not like TLJ's explanation works particularly well either, though - it still doesn't explain why there's a map. The obvious explanation for me would be that he's guarding something - granted, that'd still leave the question of why he didn't bother filling anyone in on what he was doing, but make it some dark side weapon or somesuch nonsense, something he can't risk anyone even knowing about, and it sort of works.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:15
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Guy A. Person posted:The issue with TLJ Luke is that he had to be written after and as a consequence of TFA Luke, who we already knew 1. had his star pupil and nephew turn to the dark side 2. had all his other pupils killed 3. went into hiding without telling his family. There's a very obvious answer to "why would this guy go into hiding and let the galaxy fall into darkness" which is "because he hosed up really bad and knows it". Here: The school we saw fall in TFA was one of many, Luke either directly or indirectly has founded hundreds of different schools as he went from world to world but never ran them in his quest to bring back the force to the galaxt. After the school he founded and managed personally failed he withdrew to study forbidden texts from beyond the Jedi's collection to better help him understand where he went wrong. The First Order wants this collection as a secondary objective because they believe it will give them more techniques and methodology to train more and better Knights of Ren or leverage the power of the force to win wars. The map would be a note to Leia and Han to find him if they felt they could forgive him for his mistakes. Then in TLJ we'd have disinterested teacher Luke still but its because he is unsure of what he did wrong. Between the two of them and recounting his past to Rey and breaking her idealized propaganda version of OT events they crystalize what it was the separated Luke and Anakin both from the Jedi and how Rey inherits that to unlock her own potential.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:26
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Angry Salami posted:It's not like TLJ's explanation works particularly well either, though - it still doesn't explain why there's a map. Yeah I definitely feel that, but also that just puts even more of the blame on TFA, since the whole contrivance of "Luke fled but there's a secret map to him that R2 is protecting"...doesn't make a lot of sense in any scenario. quote:The obvious explanation for me would be that he's guarding something - granted, that'd still leave the question of why he didn't bother filling anyone in on what he was doing, but make it some dark side weapon or somesuch nonsense, something he can't risk anyone even knowing about, and it sort of works. I feel like with that one his goal should be "go anywhere where that thing isn't" since apparently everyone in the galaxy doesn't know about that thing is but is looking for him. So he'd be better off going to the opposite end of the galaxy and leading the bad guys on a wild goose-chase, letting whatever dark weapon fade into obscurity.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:26
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Vernii posted:I have some bad news about the quality of writers selected for SW projects. The Mandalorian seems to have figured it out at least .
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Jan 14, 2021 17:26
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Note my script would be immediately rejected because it provides setting details for whats happening in the rest of the galaxy and potential weaknesses and concerns the First Order has
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Jan 14, 2021 17:28
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I feel like this is functionally really close to what we got and what I described in my "Luke blames himself" scenario, with some extra details thrown in (like, not sure why the "hundreds of schools" really factor in). So instead of being depressed by his failure he's just honestly confused. He goes to read the Jedi version of "how to be a successful people manager" self-help books, but he still leaves a cryptic map and doesn't tell his friends, disappearing for years and not taking responsibility to combat the rise of fascism again. Instead of making one really huge and potentially unforgivable mistake, he's just kind of a giant flake in this version. I think the obvious thing JJ wanted to do was to be like "okay so Luke is Yoda now and Rey goes to train with him in the second one" but he just kind of half-assed it. I also realize I've set myself up to spend the entire day responding to different pitches on how you could make a competent Luke out of the ending of TFA; I don't want to do this but might not be able to restrain myself.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:53
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Karloff posted:I think I said it in the Mandolorian thread, but I reckon a lot of the Force Awakens problems would have been tempered had the macguffin been the plans to Starkiller base and not the map to Luke Skywalker. "help me Luke Luke-Luke Luke luke-luk-ie, you're my only hope"
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Jan 14, 2021 17:59
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Barudak posted:Here: one of the more amusing points in the EU is that Luke's academies got blown up, infiltrated, raided, subverted or kicked out so often he eventually just said gently caress it and built a Jedi Academy Spaceship
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Jan 14, 2021 18:01
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Guy A. Person posted:I feel like this is functionally really close to what we got and what I described in my "Luke blames himself" scenario, with some extra details thrown in (like, not sure why the "hundreds of schools" really factor in). So instead of being depressed by his failure he's just honestly confused. He goes to read the Jedi version of "how to be a successful people manager" self-help books, but he still leaves a cryptic map and doesn't tell his friends, disappearing for years and not taking responsibility to combat the rise of fascism again. Instead of making one really huge and potentially unforgivable mistake, he's just kind of a giant flake in this version. I don't think you can completely fix the issues TFA brings with just the second film for reasons you noted. For why I added more schools it gives Luke something to have been doing for a while and a reason for him to identify himself as the issue. If he thinks he is the problem but everyone else is fine and has a handle on things, going into exile where he doesn't communicate with the rest of the galaxy is fine. Hell, it makes it an easy and character building moment for Rey to break through his "I wont deal with you act" as we can have her define what she wants and stands for and Luke can go "oh gently caress I have to do this no matter my fears or reservations". It also lets you revisit this in the third film and have a wonderful and massive Knights of Ren vs. Other Schools showdown as one if your cornerstone fights for your final battle and this will generate an infinite number of videogames, comics, spinoff shows and films until you need two scrooge mcduck money vaults
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Jan 14, 2021 18:18
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Luke leaves and prepares to go on a years long journey of discovery about the Jedi and leaves a vague map so the ten trillion secret one-of-a-kind-very-last-one Sith apprentices don't follow him but his friends can find him if they really need him for something, and when Rey catches up to him he's just like "what do you MEAN there's a new empire" and also "why did you call yourselves "resistance" there wasn't anything to resist when I left you were in charge", "What's a snoke is that like a death stick"
RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 18:25
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"Another deathstar?!?"
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Jan 14, 2021 18:34
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If you really want to have Kylo Ren have beef with Luke have it be that before he left he asked for training and Luke said "no, I don't know how to do that I'm going to go do my self-discovery thing and see if that helps" and as a moody teen he took it too personally like he wasn't worthy or something then Snoke force-skypes him like three months later e: Then on his self-discovery he watches the prequels and is like "son of a bitch it really is like poetry" RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 18:38
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Barudak posted:For why I added more schools it gives Luke something to have been doing for a while and a reason for him to identify himself as the issue. Ahhhh okay I assumed the other schools were before his failure with Ben, this makes sense.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:47
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The best way to have handled the luke kylo thing imo is to have Luke be the one that pushed him to the dark side by being an overbearing teacher and Kylo a slow grower. Have Luke feel the pressure to restore the jedi to greatness, so he's in turn training Kylo really hard, who's a slow grower and is resenting Luke for pressuring him, and Luke being frustrated with his lack of progress. Snoke sees an opening and turns Kylo against luke, Han is furious with both Luke and Leia because they cost him his son and tells them to gently caress off, and Luke feels so bad he decides to go into exile. It's basically the same beats only Luke doesn't entertain the idea of fratricide, he's still very much guilty of Kylo falling, and it echoes how Obi-wan failed Anakin for that delicious poetry angle
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Jan 14, 2021 19:00
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Just because it was done poorly in EU books from 30 years ago (which are basically a half step up from fanfiction anyway) doesn't mean it couldn't have been written by someone who isn't a hack and can come up with a good antagonist instead of Bigger Emperor (and also the emperor). Star Wars is essentially political, and has a degree of social realism that's lacking in, say, Burroughs' Barsoom. All those Death Stars and lightsabers have to come from somewhere; this is emphasized when we learn that they run on the same nonrenewable resources. The stupidest thing in Rise of Skywalker isn't that Palpatine can use the Force to disable a fleet of ships, but that he built a fleet of ships in the galactic equivalent of North Sentinel Island. This understanding is present in the major influences on Star Wars. The Comanches who abducted John Wayne's niece weren't bug-men from another dimension, they were indigenous people suffering under colonialism. Jesus didn't come to Ben Hur from the moon; he came from an oppressed ethnoreligious minority. The conference room scene in ANH explains that the purpose of the Death Star is to be the One Weird Trick that makes fascism sustainable. Totalitarianism is hideously inefficient--nightmarish bureaucracy, people only working because they're held at gunpoint, and the skyrocketing cost of policing everywhere all the time. The Death Star allows you to literally hold everyone in the galaxy at gunpoint. As an example, let's say that the big threat was the Chiss Ascendancy, launching an attack from their little kingdom past the Outer Rim. Okay, but where did they get the industrial capacity to do that? What was the Empire doing while they did it? It would be like the remake of Red Dawn where North Korea somehow invades and occupies the United States. The entire point of the prequel trilogy is that fascism didn't come out of nowhere. It was the result of various forms of social rot, exploited by someone with vision (however terrible), and it was welcomed by a lot of people who wanted change. From the Republic and the Separatists, to the Empire, to the New Republic, people in this setting understand themselves to be part of a global ("galactic") society. All these star wars keep happening because of these global conflicts. Having a huge army just appear out of the "Unknown Regions" is deliberately jettisoning all the themes of Star Wars so you can have a big dumb space fight without actually writing a story. That sort of thing is actually far more appropriate to Star Trek than Star Wars. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 19:36
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I get what you're saying but ultimately even a mystery unknown enemy from somewhere else is better than a carbon copy of the same old bad guys but with the serial number filed off. They should have provided better context for the FO, because they essentially are an unknown, outside force that just appears with little explanation to the audience.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:21
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