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Halloween Jack posted:All these star wars keep happening because of these global conflicts. Having a huge army just appear out of the "Unknown Regions" is deliberately jettisoning all the themes of Star Wars so you can have a big dumb space fight without actually writing a story. That sort of thing is actually far more appropriate to Star Trek than Star Wars. This was a really good post, and in a brief crossover episode with the Prequeldome I'd like to add that the reason the clone army doesn't fall into this trap is that it's only a manifestation of the ever-present power of the state - the protagonists are never unaware that the Republic could assemble a large military operation, they're just unaware that a competing faction has gone off and actually done it. It's 1969 and no-one is unaware that the US could be bombing Cambodia - they're just surprised to find out that they already are.
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Jan 14, 2021 21:26
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Guy A. Person posted:The issue with TLJ Luke is that he had to be written after and as a consequence of TFA Luke, who we already knew 1. had his star pupil and nephew turn to the dark side 2. had all his other pupils killed 3. went into hiding without telling his family. There's a very obvious answer to "why would this guy go into hiding and let the galaxy fall into darkness" which is "because he hosed up really bad and knows it". Nah. I don't buy SMG's explanation that TLJ is the only Luke story you can tell. Try this one on: He's looking for something even more important than catastrophic (civil?) war, something so dangerous he can't tell anyone who isn't worthy, so he entrusts his location to people he trusts to judge their worthiness. Let's call whatever it is the TFA2 Box. Why is the First Order pursuing Luke? What does Snoke want? Snoke wants the power of the TFA2 box, or wants to prevent Luke from having it, and Kylo knows Luke is pursuing it. Why doesn't he come back to save his family? "If you leave now, help them you could; but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." The TFA2 box is too important and dangerous. What happened with Kylo Ren? He succumbed to the dangers of the search for the TFA2 Box. Either Luke brought him along and it was a mistake, or Luke tried to leave him behind and Kylo doesn't understand why, or Kylo ignored Luke's instructions and was corrupted because of it. Why did R2 shut down out of sadness? He understood he had to stay behind but it broke his heart to both leave behind Luke and withhold his location from their shared family. It also gives a reason for R2 to randomly wake up, which TLJ does not: R2 realizes that Rey is worthy to join Luke in the search for the TFA2 Box. Also, what's the deal with Maz, another TLJ dropped thread? Well, in this hypothetical TFA2 she's another stay-behind who knows and trusts what Luke's doing, but sees Rey's potential. There. Luke is still a badass warrior-adventurer-sage, whose only failing was that he took on Kylo Ren as an apprentice out of filial piety despite the fact that he wasn't ready. Even then, Kylo's failing was his own, because a pure heart that believes in the yadda yadda yadda is in no danger from the search for Holy Grail or whatever. This TFA2 sounds like it would suck, but it would suck in a very hacky Abrams-y way. It follows directly in the footsteps of TFA's plot and structure and view of the OT characters. I still like TLJ Luke a lot better than the continuing adventures of Jedi Master And All Around Superhero (Who Is Married To A Hot Redhead For Some Reason) Luke. josh04 posted:This was a really good post, and in a brief crossover episode with the Prequeldome I'd like to add that the reason the clone army doesn't fall into this trap is that it's only a manifestation of the ever-present power of the state - the protagonists are never unaware that the Republic could assemble a large military operation, they're just unaware that a competing faction has gone off and actually done it. It's 1969 and no-one is unaware that the US could be bombing Cambodia - they're just surprised to find out that they already are. The problem is that the 1969 USAF, in this analogy, is unprotected children a short jump away from their enemies for a decade. Attack of the Clones is also a nonsensical movie. It's also why "mystery threats from outside the galaxy" sound unappealing. You don't even need to look to the EU: AOTC had a mystery army that nobody knew about for no good reason and it's a big part of why that movie was terrible. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 21:44
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Cease to Hope posted:It also gives a reason for R2 to randomly wake up, which TLJ does not: R2 realizes that Rey is worthy to join Luke in the search for the TFA2 Box. that's kind of lame, he's an astromech droid not master yoda. but not sure it's any lamer than him randomly waking up in TFA so knock yourself out
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Jan 14, 2021 22:10
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Cerv posted:that's kind of lame, he's an astromech droid not master yoda. Oh, it sucks incredibly bad. But it's lame in exactly the same way everything else in TFA is lame. You could even pad it out with even more hack poo poo: Luke foresaw all of this, and told R2 that no matter what happens, he can't tell anyone where Luke is gone until the Chosen One shows up. I like TFA despite myself, but man it's such hacky nonsense. It's not hard to imagine a sequel to it.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:13
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Cease to Hope posted:Nah. I don't buy SMG's explanation that TLJ is the only Luke story you can tell. I don't know what this is. I am not SMg and I didn't say it was the only Luke story you could tell, I'm saying that based on the story in TFA that TLJ was kind of written into a corner. So your pitch is fine and similar to the "searching for powers through the Jedi Texts" scenario I proposed,. In this version Luke still plays a hand in Ben's corruption and then bounces leaving everyone else to deal with the consequences, he's gone for years, and then he's on the exact planet that the map points to which means he seemingly hasn't been doing much "searching" --- if "searching" requires combing through the Jedi texts for clues why not do that while helping to stop the First Order. Han does outright say Luke left having felt responsibility for Ben's fall but maybe this is just a misunderstanding. If Ben was corrupted by the grail quest that does explain why he hasn't told anyone else tho I suppose and maybe would even keep it secret by lying about his reasons for leaving. I honestly think it's even less of a "TFA2" than TLJ was since you're taking the fairly straightforward story from TFA (Ben fell and Luke felt responsible and left) and then throwing a good chunk of that out, saying "well nah, actually I left for another reason but it did sort've contribute to Ben's fall but I don't feel guilt so much as I just want to find this weapon".
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Jan 14, 2021 23:25
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Guy A. Person posted:I don't know what this is. I am not SMg and I didn't say it was the only Luke story you could tell, I'm saying that based on the story in TFA that TLJ was kind of written into a corner. I know you're not SMG. He proposed basically the same argument a while back as I recall, that's all. Anyhow, why does Luke not come back? Because he's protecting the TFA2 Box, the Holy Grail, from the First Order and he can't afford to risk leading them to it, no matter what the cost. (A variation: because the TFA2 Box has been under attack all this time and he's been busy defending it.) Because he's working on unlocking it, or building it, or mastering it, or dismantling it, and that doesn't allow for doing anything else. Because he hasn't been in one place all this time; he just had a vision of meeting someone he had to meet here at this time and place, or only the place is prearranged and he knows the time because of something Rey did or something about Rey or something Rey has (like, say, his old lightsaber). All of these plots let TFA2 spend a ton of time telling a story about Luke doing some heroic poo poo in a cool and awesome way and Rey hearing this story and going "Wow you're the hero from all the stories I heard about, you're so cool" and then maybe getting sucked into the tail end of that adventure. Same plot as Han Solo. It doesn't throw away the Kylo Ren plot in TFA at all. Luke starts on the quest for the Holy Grail with Ben, Ben is corrupted by his inability to whatever, Luke feels responsible for pulling Ben along before he's truly ready and regretfully decides that this must be a solitary quest until he meets the Chosen One. He feels responsible but actually we see it's because Kylo Ren was a dickhole and Luke, goshdarnit, he was just too trusting with family to see the truth that his nephew sucked. Again, same plot as Han Solo. It also helps fill in what the gently caress the Final Order is or why Palpatine comes back, and what Snoke wants. Snoke builds the First Order to track down the TFA2 Box because it can be used to revive Palpatine (or is Palpatine, why not).
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Jan 14, 2021 23:51
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:The First Order is an organization that exists solely so Disney can bring Star Wars back to the status quo of blue lasers vs red lasers and sell the same shaped toys to us again. If they had been smart the antagonists would have been a completely new threat from outside the galaxy or some kind of internal rebellion (maybe even have some interesting plot conversations about the old rebels now being the ones fighting against a rebellious force) but that would require someone besides JJ Abrams to write the script and welp I agree that TFA was basically structured as "reset the setting so that it's back to plucky band of freedom fighters vs the big evil empire", but I disagree about the need for extragalactic invaders or whatever. I think the Resistance/First Order dynamic could have worked just fine if they hadn't insisted on making it a galactic-scale story. Throw it in some corner of the Outer Rim and make the story about a planet or star system that's under threat from an ~Imperial Remnant~ that's slowly creeping out and absorbing neighboring systems. The Republic doesn't give a gently caress because, idk, apathy, corruption, deficit hawks, whatever. So the heroes of the story are basically on their own to scrounge up resources and fight for their homes. The Empire doesn't have to be menacing the entire galaxy for them to be evil fascists that need to get their poo poo kicked in. If Disney still insists on the original trilogy characters making appearances, it's dead simple. Han's smuggling them weapons and other supplies; Leia's coordinating some extra-legal backchannel support (intelligence, maybe a nod on where to find a cache of old Rebellion equipment); Luke idk maybe one of the new heroes has got the midis and needs some guidance.
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Jan 15, 2021 01:12
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Cease to Hope posted:It also helps fill in what the gently caress the Final Order is or why Palpatine comes back, and what Snoke wants. Snoke builds the First Order to track down the TFA2 Box because it can be used to revive Palpatine (or is Palpatine, why not). And it's not like Luke dealing with Sith spirits while in isolation is a concept that wasn't explored during the trilogy's development: 
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Jan 15, 2021 01:14
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Halloween Jack posted:No, it couldn't. It's an inherently bad idea for Star Wars. Aye, but what would the social realist of something unknowable be? Say a giant death star eating gorilla appeared, and before the rebels got too glad the gorilla starts popping x wings into his mouth like M&Ms. This would cause huge social and economic upheaval, confusion, strange new alliances, bicycle thieves, gaps in supply chains, insurrections, and everything down from that. And how would you approach that spiritually, with "the force?" it is to ask.
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Jan 15, 2021 01:47
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I'd use the force to communicate with the giant gorilla and explain that the rebellion fights for star peace.
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Jan 15, 2021 02:48
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FunkyAl posted:Aye, but what would the social realist of something unknowable be? Say a giant death star eating gorilla appeared, and before the rebels got too glad the gorilla starts popping x wings into his mouth like M&Ms. This would cause huge social and economic upheaval, confusion, strange new alliances, bicycle thieves, gaps in supply chains, insurrections, and everything down from that. And how would you approach that spiritually, with "the force?" it is to ask. Right, these are just the times for "We must forge an alliance with the Space Nazis to fight the giant gorilla" type stories.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:15
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star wars give me one 44 minute episode where we can't engage violently with the giant planet eating gorilla because it has just as much right to life as we do
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Jan 15, 2021 05:33
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I wouldn't say that Star Wars is inherently political exactly. The original trilogy was defined most by the sort of nostalgia from being inspired by pulp, old movies, and a bit of fairytales to fill the gaps, and all that gets wrapped up in this sort of uniting aesthetic that actually makes everything feel like it has its own story. On a simple level, that's because of like junkpile visual aesthetics where everything's run-down like it's old and beaten up and you're not sure how it was supposed to work when it was new, but it's not working like that now. That gives a sort of implied story to the item. On a more complex level, most of the characters generally do act like they have their own stories, Leia was on her own mission that got caught, and then here's Luke who's gotta pick up farm equipment with his dad, and he has plans with friends and for the future, and eventually that falls apart and he walks into a bar and some extra who's setting the scene as a place where people die all the time turns out to be the next big character. The prequels had some of that, but there was also the intent to design the type of world that all this junk came from when it was newer, design the halcyon golden age that corrupted into the iron age of the original trilogy, which is a bit of a weird idea. It got crossed with some classical history and I think Lucas on top of having more direct creative control had some newer baggage about morals, weirder opinions on romance from being divorced, and lacking the stellar editor that he had in his ex-wife. He managed to create a political landscape, but couldn't quite present it in a way that would have broader appeal. The sequels didn't have that sort of broad pulpy nostalgia, it had very hyper-specific nostalgia for just Star Wars (or at least, some elements of it). It's set up sort of as more of a soap opera, where the world mainly exists for the sake of the characters (hey, here's some original trilogy characters! Look at them!) but the characters only really exist for the sake of the story, so they lack a lot of extraneous details, and it feels less plausible for them to split up doing their own stuff or living their own lives. Certain important details about characters get left in a superposition of being able to read many possible states at once, which can create audience engagement without hemming in writing possibilities that could be restrictive with specifics. And just like how characters are kinda scant on weird details, objects generally lack much storytelling of their own. Lots of shiny, smooth things, most of the ships aren't weird and distinctive, they're clearly variations on already well-known Star Wars ships. Where did they come from? Well they came from that movie you've already seen, obviously.
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Jan 15, 2021 07:20
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King Kong becomes a Jedi
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Jan 15, 2021 08:19
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SlothfulCobra posted:And just like how characters are kinda scant on weird details, objects generally lack much storytelling of their own. Lots of shiny, smooth things, most of the ships aren't weird and distinctive, they're clearly variations on already well-known Star Wars ships. they made an entire movie to explain the stupid dice in the millenium falcon (and also some other stupid things about the millenium falcon)
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Jan 15, 2021 13:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:I wouldn't say that Star Wars is inherently political exactly. Lucas explicitly said the original film was an allegory for Vietnam told from the POV of the Vietnamese. Palpatine was an explicit analog to Nixon and later George W. Bush. Politics is in Star Wars’ DNA.
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Jan 15, 2021 13:47
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Yea, I really don’t need Star Wars to become a battle of Galactic Citizens vs The Other. That’s not Star Wars and it’s not what I want to see in 2020 either. Disney would absolutely never subvert it either, it’d just be unholy mobs getting slaughtered by righteous fascists like in Avengers
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Jan 15, 2021 14:04
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Grendels Dad posted:Right, these are just the times for "We must forge an alliance with the Space Nazis to fight the giant gorilla" type stories. The giant gorilla ate most of the space nazis. He also ate most of anybody else who was on a ship, Warrior Merchant or Man. He eats machines and factories. Droids are on the run. TATOOINE, with its underground means and methods of trade, has become a new capital. CORUSCANT, the jewel of the republic, stands a wreck. Soup lines are everywhere. Famine abounds. In these worst of times, powerful rival gangs of JEDI, SEPERATISTS and LOYALISTS have risen, each with their own vision for the future of democracy, and the GALAXY.... Then you pan down, see coruscant in the poo poo, like in that movie they didn't use. Buildings are a mess, but there's also grass growing back everywhere so it's got that going on for it. And there's flags and clotheslines and there's still life, there's people rounding up votes for elections and that's our protag, a Youngling who can't get anyone to take his Jedi flyers. The election's also gangs of new york level crooked, people get their arms chopped off, there's like a tamany hall machine, but then a bunch of commandments or like a code of hammurabi appear scorched on one of the buildings in a lightsaber. nobody knows who done it, there is a furious search but none can find. more appear despite efforts, and eventually i think the deal is multiple people make rules and cross them out and it becomes like the silly beginning of a democracy, the protagonist meets the og artist and she is a graffiti jedi, who hatched a bright idea. But really, the tamany machine does not like it at all and they start sending hits out on people, same with the organized leadership of the respective gangs. Just spitballin here
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Jan 15, 2021 18:10
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Barudak posted:"Another deathstar?!?" I like that a character in TFA actually says this, and the response from JJ is, "Tch, yeah, we WISH it was another death star! This is like a completely different thing!" Cue the hologram projector showing.. a MUCH BIGGER death star.
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Jan 15, 2021 18:44
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All you guys talking about a giant gorilla Star Wars, you know Clone Wars basically did King Kong, right? Palpatine found out about some giant monster that awakened on a distant world, managed to capture it and brought it to Coruscant to somehow use for military research purposes, only for it to break free and rampage through the city. The Zillo Beast had a whole thing going where it was a tragic figure on top of being a threat, and the true antagonist was Palpatine and his machinations making the situation worse in spite of the wishes of the Jedi and the scientist, and that's how the show kept sight of the interpersonal drama that it works better with. Even if you tried to construct movies around that sort of giant massive threat, you'd still have to write the threat to be interesting in itself, and you'd have to come up with a complicated interpersonal dynamic for the people you have fighting it, or else it'll be boring.
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Jan 15, 2021 19:09
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SolarFire2 posted:I like that a character in TFA actually says this, and the response from JJ is, "Tch, yeah, we WISH it was another death star! This is like a completely different thing!" Cue the hologram projector showing.. a MUCH BIGGER death star. it gets even better as it goes on with: "well all right how do we stop it then?" "exactly the same way as the death star" Even a basic level of creativity reveals how a planet-sized death star would be best destroyed by the original death star
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Jan 15, 2021 19:21
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Grendels Dad posted:Right, these are just the times for "We must forge an alliance with the Space Nazis to fight the giant gorilla" type stories.
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Jan 15, 2021 19:24
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To destroy a Death Star... they must become a Death Star. Star. Wars.
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Jan 15, 2021 19:24
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Robot Style posted:And it's not like Luke dealing with Sith spirits while in isolation is a concept that wasn't explored during the trilogy's development: "hey hey rear end in a top hat you know I'm here turn around"
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Jan 15, 2021 19:34
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Grendels Dad posted:To destroy a Death Star... they must become a Death Star. The Force Awakens really should've taken most of its cues from the best star wars novel, Darksaber
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Jan 15, 2021 19:34
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SolarFire2 posted:I like that a character in TFA actually says this, and the response from JJ is, "Tch, yeah, we WISH it was another death star! This is like a completely different thing!" Cue the hologram projector showing.. a MUCH BIGGER death star. From JJ himself: "It is very much — and it's acknowledged as such in the movie — apparently another Death Star. But what it's capable of, how it works, and what the threat is, is far greater than what the Death Star could have done. Starkiller Base is another step forward, technologically speaking, in terms of power."
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Jan 15, 2021 23:05
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kilus aof posted:From JJ himself: "So how do we blow it up."  *big laugh moment*
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Jan 15, 2021 23:06
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kilus aof posted:From JJ himself: "But the exact same thing, thematically speaking."
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Jan 15, 2021 23:15
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kilus aof posted:From JJ himself: I'd say it sucking up the sun is pretty devastating, but apparently nobody in the movie seems to worry about that. Like. That sun. It's gone. That system is hosed, you guys.
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Jan 15, 2021 23:16
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Starkiller Base is the setup part of a joke that had the punchline cut from the movie. While the Empire was building ever more ridiculous Death Stars, the Republic was devising ever more ridiculous ways for X-wings to blow them up, culminating in a ludicrously enormous ship designed to break through a planetary shield and spit a couple of protagonists into the battle to blow the whole thing up in one shot: 
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Jan 15, 2021 23:22
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Robot Style posted:Starkiller Base is the setup part of a joke that had the punchline cut from the movie. While the Empire was building ever more ridiculous Death Stars, the Republic was devising ever more ridiculous ways for X-wings to blow them up, culminating in a ludicrously enormous ship designed to break through a planetary shield and spit a couple of protagonists into the battle to blow the whole thing up in one shot: That would have worked quite well with the Casino Plant twist in TLJ. Too bad. edit: Also, that is where all the fuel went! Grendels Dad fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 23:31
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Lmao. When you must carry on the tradition of space triangles, but more, you get a space triangular prism.
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Jan 16, 2021 02:59
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it's an entire ship based on that scene from return of the jedi where the star destroyer crashes into the death star 2 
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Jan 16, 2021 03:44
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nine-gear crow posted:Lucas explicitly said the original film was an allegory for Vietnam told from the POV of the Vietnamese. Palpatine was an explicit analog to Nixon and later George W. Bush. Politics is in Star Wars’ DNA. He has a habit of making poo poo up after the fact though.
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Jan 16, 2021 08:01
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Grendels Dad posted:I'd say it sucking up the sun is pretty devastating, but apparently nobody in the movie seems to worry about that. yeah I always thought this was the more devastating (and cooler) weapon of the base, but it goes unremarked upon
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Jan 16, 2021 08:34
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Han Solo gave his only Sun for this franchise.
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Jan 16, 2021 08:47
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reignofevil posted:Han Solo gave his only Sun for this franchise. Han Nada
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Jan 16, 2021 09:24
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feedmegin posted:He has a habit of making poo poo up after the fact though. He was saying this in interviews in the late 70s. It’s in his early script notes that were scanned in for those big books that came out recently. The whole reason he made the movie is because Apocalypse Now didn’t work out for him.
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Jan 16, 2021 20:05
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feedmegin posted:He has a habit of making poo poo up after the fact though. Yeah, Lucas is an unreliable narrator at the best of times, but the one consistent factor in his life has kind of been that he's super liberal and really hates Republicans.
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Jan 17, 2021 00:08
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feedmegin posted:He has a habit of making poo poo up after the fact though. This is being a creative
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