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What is your indoor humidity like? Put up meters in various rooms, see if it's excessive. Then you have one more data point. I also wanted to know about the condensation on your windows, is the condensation between window panes, or is it on the inside, because I had trouble telling from the pictures. EDIT: Actually I noticed you swabbed a finger over the condensation, so inside it is. That is telling of high indoor humidity, or a very cold window. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 08:18
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I think indoor humidity is reasonable. Only have one gauge, but it says 35%. That condensation pic is from outside. I don't know if it's much of a clue, but there isn't condensation on the outside of other windows, and the first energy auditor saw it and mumbled something about "oh ya, you've got water right here." Likewise, frost. I think I get what you're saying Tezer, that if all I was seeing was frost in the eaves I might be just an overly worried home owner. Like when the oil change place shows you a corroded part to con you into buying a new one you don't need. It only looks scary to someone who doesn't know better. So, it's only because we know other things that we know there's a problem. Which, we know there's a problem, right? This is a large part of my frustration. It looks scary to me, but what do I know, and I know it's easy to get carried away when self diagnosing. For example I was convinced I had torn cartilage in my knee, and didn't believe the clinician saying I was fine. Even the MRI may not have convinced me if they hadn't pointed out swelling and inflammation, which reminded me I had femoral patellar syndrome earlier, and this was probably just that flairing up again. So I can't just rely on my own judgement. Motronic is saying I may need to make an emergency exit. You're saying the house might be in a certain sense totalled. I am truly thankful for both of your input. But we're just here posting on somethingawful dot com. None of the six professionals I have paid to look at it seem terribly concerned. I guess I should, if I have the funds and interest, find a contractor to perform an operation. With the understanding it may get Very Expensive, and may not fix the problem. Or I should convince my wife, based on internet advice and my own uneducated assessment, to sell at a loss and uproot our life. Or I should ignore it until things degrade to the point that emergency surgery is required. Or maybe there isn't really a problem 
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Dec 22, 2020 18:52
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If you have water dripping out of your ceiling when it isn’t raining (or really, even if it is raining) you definitely have a problem. How major of a problem is hard to say, but if you ignore water getting into your house, it will guaranteed turn into a worse problem than it is right now.
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Dec 22, 2020 19:26
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Ooh ok on the outside, well I guess it means a leaky window. So the idea is moist indoor air leaks out and migrates up into the eaves and causes condensation, which then causes frost and the ice dam problem?
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Dec 22, 2020 19:30
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Something like that, but clearly no one knows. At this point my plan is - Keep compiling data and sharing it with you jerks. - Keep talking to contractors until I find one that will take on the project - Maybe buy my own thermal camera - Maybe get drunk with my buddy and take down the interior trim. Maybe find some crevices we can jam backer rod into or something. I'm pretty hesitant to use spray foam or caulk or anything that I can't take back out. Oh and shopping/researching HRVs, and seeing if a roofer will weigh in on if that ridge vent should be extended Epitope fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 20:11
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Epitope posted:Which, we know there's a problem, right? This is a large part of my frustration. It looks scary to me, but what do I know, and I know it's easy to get carried away when self diagnosing. For example I was convinced I had torn cartilage in my knee, and didn't believe the clinician saying I was fine. Even the MRI may not have convinced me if they hadn't pointed out swelling and inflammation, which reminded me I had femoral patellar syndrome earlier, and this was probably just that flairing up again. So I can't just rely on my own judgement. There is a problem in that soffit, we know this because the area has already been repaired once and continues to be wet when it shouldn't be. Stuff can be quirky, and you could just treat that area as a 'wear item' and replace it every couple of years, or use composite material so it isn't susceptible to rot. The same way you can baby one knee that you're having issues with instead of getting surgery, if the injury isn't disabling. Honestly, I don't even think the soffit is a huge deal - I work on a lot of homes with wood trim and siding and there's always one area that due to various reasons (weird roof pitches, shaded so it doesn't dry, located right over a moist dryer vent) performs worse than other locations. What concerns me in your case is that you can't figure out why that soffit is an issue, which means that the issue could be more widespread and simply presenting in this location first. Like, we have a client right now that has two issues on the exterior of their wood siding/trim home. One is the roof trim, which we are just going to replace. It gets hit with a lot of water, it's twenty years old, no big deal. The other area is a 5x5 area of siding that is showing rot within three feet of the foundation on one side of the home. We aren't repairing that one until spring, because we want to figure out why it's happening - it shouldn't be rotting in that area faster than others, so we are concerned that repairing it may just hide a more systemic issue.
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Dec 22, 2020 20:28
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Totally, thus the thread title. If I have to replace siding more often, ok. If I have to replace the rafters every 10 years, not ok!
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Dec 22, 2020 20:54
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Added more to my diagram I would like to continue testing whether there are air paths I can find and plug. Of course I'm obsessed with the trim, probably because it is most accessable. Could also look at the hose bibs (there's hot and cold) or the seam between the addition and the original back wall. Also maybe plumbing or heat supply routing. Here's thermal imaging of the spot I swear was breezy when the blower door was running. Before running the bathroom fans for a while and turning up the heat.  After running the bathroom fans for a while, and turning up the heat. Of course I was scrambling to get this much of a test cobbled together while the camera's owner told me I was barking up the wrong tree. Would love to be able to set up the camera and get a proper before and after pic from the same spot. Maybe with the trim down.  Visible light pic of that spot  album link https://imgur.com/gallery/0FTmKmV
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Dec 22, 2020 22:41
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This is making me feel a lot more positive about the medical system I experience. Yes it's crazy expensive and screws a lot of people over. But imagine if all the surgeons had to come to your house, and you can only find them by word of mouth. The x-ray tech will only do the x ray if he thinks he should. If you want a copy of the image, quick try and snap one with your phone. Radiologists only do Gundam, so if you want someone to look at your puny android body x ray better try a comedy message board.
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Dec 22, 2020 23:58
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OK so it looks like multiple leaks to me, and I guess the problem is a leaky vapor barrier (and perhaps a leaky window) and possibly shoddy insulation compounding the problem. Do you have overpressure or underpressure in your house? I mean does air naturally wanna flow in or out of springs and leaks. If you got overpressure, all these problems will be magnified and moisture will be pushed through whereever it can. Houses here are designed to have a slight underpressure indoors because that's better than the alternative.
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Dec 23, 2020 05:26
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I think overpressure, and ya seems to me that's contributing. The energy audit says 3.15 ACH50, which the last guy said "that's a tight house". It's got a basement with a garage, and the last two evaluators talked about the stack effect making it higher pressure up top. A lot of the stuff that is wet or frosty makes it seem like the house is just oozing through any opening it can. Almost all in the back though, the front/south side seems to have far fewer symptoms
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Dec 23, 2020 06:32
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Our ventilation system (centralized with heat recovery of the outgoing air) controls both in and out and the out is slightly over what is pulled in. You could achieve something like that by adding a fan or several to pull air out. You could also determine this by opening a window or door and check which way the draft goes. As long as there isn't any wind at the time. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Dec 23, 2020 |
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Dec 23, 2020 07:18
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The last evaluator called. He said he was thinking about it, and is still working on finding a name or two for me to call. Probably not a job for the winter anyway though. In the mean time, maybe I should pop off that trim and tape up that corner, see if the snow stops melting off the roof there. Feeling pretty smug rn
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Dec 24, 2020 23:25
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Finally managed to get photos from the 2015 roof job. This is clarifying, and puts me at ease at least a little bit. When talking to the subcontractor who did the rafters, he talked about a lot of damage around "the sun room" which I took to mean the skylight/window area. That is where I'm seeing continued symptoms, so that made me concerned the same problem was happening again. But these photos make it seem like he was talking about what I'm calling the loft. Maybe the ventilation they added will indeed prevent the same degradation recurring. Also, I doubt the alleged 1999 rafter job included the whole roof, which would mean the first set lasted 60 some years, not 16 years like I had feared. The bathroom fan damaged area is shown, though I remain far from convinced it was the heart of the matter. Indeed, the really area that is really frosty today is the very degraded decking at the bottom of this photo.  Guy kneeling near where I'm worried there's continued issues  Where there's a ridge vent now  So there are other cross members. Why did they put the vent stack through a rafter?  Sistered in 
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Dec 30, 2020 23:52
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Pulled together an informative experimental result. Initial observations The moisture/condensation that gathers on the outside of the one window is especially present in current weather conditions. I noticed it was changing pretty fast. Running the sink had a noticeable impact. Method No special tools, just running the faucet in two different ways and a bit of tape. Both sink methods are full bore hot. The first way is with the retractable hose faucet stuffed down the disposal (so very little humidity is produced above deck). The second way is with the faucet in its normal position, and splashing water around the sink (so lots of humidity is produced above deck). The sink run is performed without and with painter's tape around the window trim. Results I started with multiple hours of no occupants in the house. There was almost no condensation on the outside of the window after that. Then I ran the sink with the faucet down the disposal. No condensation formed on the window after full five minutes of running. I let it all rest 30 minutes, and still observed no condensation. Then ran the hot water with the faucet in its holster, splashing around the sink. Within a minute or so lots of condensation was observed on the outside of the window. So, there is indeed significant vapor drive with the sink on. It's only, as far as I can see, on the one side of the one window (there are 4 windows right by the sink). Also, it's not coming from a drain line or a supply line. That's good news at least.  Finally, the next day I taped up around that window and repeated the above deck hot water. Tape blocks the path, which was confirmed by removing the tape and watching the condensation form again.  Maybe who I need to call is an window installer to properly seal the windows?
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Jan 2, 2021 19:30
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Clear packing top on every seam anywhere in your house maybe? They make that heat and shrink window film for exactly this purpose (but usually to stop drafts coming in).
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Jan 3, 2021 01:59
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Clear packing top on every seam anywhere in your house maybe? They make that heat and shrink window film for exactly this purpose (but usually to stop drafts coming in). That film is for the glass itself, not the seams. I would, in order of preference, -rip the windows out and replace with a solid section of roof. - caulk the interior of the windows until a suitable time that the above option can happen. Those windows in that roof are such a bad idea.
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Jan 3, 2021 03:15
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I think packing tape might screw up paint, but I have started going to town with painter's tape. I'm concerned that even removing the skylights may not be enough to rectify things. But optimistic (haha...) that removing skylights and properly sealing the window and possibly adding ventilation will be enough.
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Jan 3, 2021 06:42
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JLC has an article on using smoke to find air leaks, it's in their print edition but I don't think it's online yet. Here's a random PDF that has it though, starts on page 33 of the PDF: http://www.bowe.cc/techlib/pdf/Journal_of_Light_Construction_vol39_no1_1604611416.pdf
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Jan 4, 2021 01:15
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Even if there were no issues with your home, ripping out the skylights would be a good idea. Do it.
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Jan 4, 2021 02:39
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[Excited Borat voice] Great success! I believe I have located the dragon's lair. Neither of the last two kings of this realm got this far, and many of their maidens were devoured. I still need to find a knight that can slay it, but this finding should at least increase my odds. Before  shoveled, then a dusting of snow  shoveled more  take down trim, add backer rod   Brown is my addition, black stuff higher up was there.  taped  latest snow  It's only been a day, so hopefully I'm not jumping the gun. Current mood: Maury You are NOT the Father. Ya I made some poor decisions, but maybe I'm gonna get away with it without being saddled with bottomless financial burden.
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Jan 4, 2021 20:58
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If you want something done, Do It Yourself In what will surprise probably no one reading this, that tape and foam didn't stop the hot spot entirely. Maybe it slowed it down some, though of course there's a million uncontrollable variables. Also, I have since found one more possible air exfiltration culprit. I bought my own thermal camera, and I scrounged a blower (wow, blower doors are pricey. (I haven't priced fog machines, thank you for another document Tezer)). Why it wasn't possible to get this done by the not-one-but-two pros I hired specifically to do it, I still don't really understand. But whatever, got it done now. Using those tools, I found another area that is probably very much involved. Maybe it should have been obvious just from looking, or at least been higher on my suspicion list, but I thought this area was above the hot spots. Also I bet I was swayed by a hope that there weren't flaws with the loft. Crush all hope.In any case, I am glad to have the tools to set me straight. Blower window. Wife not pleased  Wide view of latest suspected problem area (knife board visible to orient you)  Close up, visible light  Before and after running blower   Exterior view of hot spot (blower not running)  I still have more playing around with these More details on this spot. There are some super sweet early adopter LED light bars on top of the cabinets. The power cord is routed through the microwave chimney hole through the drywall/rafter box thing. The microwave chimney pipe is very sloppily installed. Lots of possible air paths to chase after. Also, the switch plate for those LED bars isn't well sealed (cold after running blower), and it is in the wall right below the hot spot. The outlets on that wall are well sealed (still warm after running blower). Maybe the LED install is the root cause  Another clue about how the bottom corners of the loft were done. It seems on both sides that the bottom corner was not sealed carefully. On the opposite side the spray foam that they used to insulate the roof oozed inside. I found a nerf dart there. The dart had been sitting there for long enough to leave a permanent shadow on that spray foam. I don't think there have been kids here since 2015, so that foam might be from before the 2015 roof job. I could be wrong about whether there were kids, and I suppose retired surgeons can play with nerf too.
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Jan 12, 2021 00:59
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Wait, is that rafter/ box thing vented to outside? What the gently caress? Also that LED wiring is atrocious.
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Jan 12, 2021 02:48
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Elviscat posted:Wait, is that rafter/ box thing vented to outside? What the gently caress? Not sure what the intention is. There is a large gap between the pipe and the drywall, you can stick a finger in. Whether that space is part of the interior by design or by laziness I couldn't say.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:33
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Epitope posted:I think packing tape might screw up paint, but I have started going to town with painter's tape. Be careful with the painters tape - if you leave it long enough it'll be difficult to remove. Clear caulk is definitely your best bet (or whatever color that blends in nicely). If it were me, I'd just go crazy with caulk anywhere you can find air leaks. You might want a smoke pencil (or some smoky incense) to help find exactly where the air leaks are. If you do this while the house is under pressure you're effectively doing directed air sealing devicenull fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 00:34
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Thanks, good to know. Ya I've seen that article, and that's sort of my strategy. I don't want to do anything permanent though. I'm just trying to gather information. Find out "oh hey the skylights are only half the problem" before paying to replace them and *then* finding there is a whole other problem area.
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Jan 13, 2021 06:48
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I woke up at 3am again, and couldn't get back to sleep (is increased insomnia from covid, politics, or house stress?). I figured I'd come update this thread. Instead, I got pulled into water intrusion clean up in addition number 3 (other side of the house). Somehow these jokers screwed up drainage on the downhill side of the house. Water dripped on the wife's brand new- worn it once just around the yard- parka, and filled its hood with brown water. Maybe she'll be more open to considering moving now? Anyway, rafters or whatever. I did more taping and blowing and thermal imaging. The skylights are just sieves, they for sure gotta go. Oh and they're dripping again, but that's kinda "of course" at this point. Found out a bit more about the kitchen vent stack. Hopefully it is fine above where the microwave installer's poo poo show ends. I was alarmed originally when seeing the pipe at the top much closer to the wall than the pipe in the middle, but the walls above and below are off set. Hopefully it's one piece of pipe, not a questionable junction in the rafter space. Also, when running my blower window, the roof hot spot cools off, then turning on the microwave fan, the top of that chimney gets warm but the hot spot does not. Not conclusive (intruding hot air could be getting sucked back in the skylight, hell ya), but maybe a good sign. I tried looking at the microwave fan's impact without the blower-window on, but it was hard to see if the hot spot gets hotter when the microwave fan is on. Maybe if i put the camera on a tripod and set the scale to fixed instead of auto-scale... Ahem! Where was I? Right. The LED outlet wiring routing continues to seem quite suspect. Here's some pics. Here's before running any blowers.  Here's after running the blower window for a while, microwave vent off. There's tape and foam on the obvious holes, though it isn't terribly effective.  Here's keeping the blower window on, and turning the microwave fan on also. Maybe this means the vent does not empty into all the cold spaces? The cabinet above the microwave stayed cold for a while though, so might not mean that.  Close up of the LED business above the microwave.   Here's the same spot from another angle. This is when the microwave fan has been running for 10 minutes (and blower window still), so seems unrelated to the microwave vent. Is the cold stripe up the wall and onto the mini ceiling coming from a fountain of cold air from the outlet? Or is the wall/rafter box getting cold from air moving behind the drywall? I should tape that outlet and run it all again.   Finally, here's the switch that operates the two outlets up there (one above and one below the drywalled rafter box thing). First pic from a prior blower run before foaming and taping, then my foam job, then the current blower run. I think this was a reasonably effective tape job compared to some of my other foam/tape jabs. The outlet which before was relatively hot is now maybe colder than the switch plate.    Ok, I think that's my findings. Oh, one more. The hot spot gets cold when running the blower. Even with all the tape and foam, it's hot again within an hour or so. Good to know how effective my work is? :P Thanks for reading, see you next week for another installment of man versus house, northern exposure edition
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Jan 19, 2021 22:07
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What is that box the microwave vent runs through?
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Jan 20, 2021 03:43
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I would just get a microwave that vents back into the room and seal up that hole where the pipe runs through. Yes obviously venting outside is better, but with all your issues...gently caress it. seal up that vent pipe hole.
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Jan 20, 2021 04:23
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Ya that vent is on the list still for sure The box is the original roof, I assume there are rafters in there. Uh, the lower outlet is actually on an interior wall! I didn't realize that. Where's the cold coming from?
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Jan 20, 2021 07:08
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Could be drafting down the wall to the outlet from the attic space. That original roof protruding into the living space is a horrorshow. I would encourage you to fix the vent rather than replace with a ventless hood, that's just gonna more humidity in your house.
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Jan 20, 2021 09:31
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Just how much humidity does a microwave produce? Never even heard of the concept of a vented microwave before.
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Jan 20, 2021 10:10
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It's a combo microwave/vent hood for the range, the venting's not for the microwave, it's for the stovetop.
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Jan 20, 2021 10:44
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Elviscat posted:Could be drafting down the wall to the outlet from the attic space. Hmm, while I feel I am experiencing a horror show, the protrusion wasn't something that struck me. Do you mean the way it was executed, or that it's even there? Here's the current list for a GC, if we can find one who's worth a drat that doesn't just nope out immediately. -Turn skylight to roof (need to decide how much eave, especially on the side) -Seal the window that clearly leaks. Do we need to remove (replace with wall) that window too? Might depend on the foundation... -Seal the attic corner -Fix/seal the LED outlet wiring -Seal the kitchen vent pipe through the rafter box. (Also verify the pipe itself is installed well) -Extend the ridge vent so it connects and we have ridge vent along the entire roof Also, I forget not all of us are carefully constructing a 3d model in our brain. For those not being driven mad by grappling with house, maybe this helps:   The hot spot is over what was originally eave, but now is roof of the kitchen addition
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Jan 20, 2021 15:36
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Epitope posted:Here's the current list for a GC, if we can find one who's worth a drat that doesn't just nope out immediately. Except for removing the skylights, this is largely a 'while you are here' list on a larger project, and even the skylight one I wouldn't do unless it was a customer with an existing relationship. I know you need to get this done, just cautioning you that it's a really unattractive list. Small piddly items. It's a list made for a handyman, except handymen aren't really trained in air sealing. It's going to be a frustrating process to find someone (sounds like it already has actually) and I sympathize. Are you using the blower door to pressurize or depressurize your house, I didn't see that detail but perhaps I missed it.
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Jan 20, 2021 15:57
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Tezer posted:Except for removing the skylights, this is largely a 'while you are here' list on a larger project, and even the skylight one I wouldn't do unless it was a customer with an existing relationship. I know you need to get this done, just cautioning you that it's a really unattractive list. Small piddly items. It's a list made for a handyman, except handymen aren't really trained in air sealing. It's going to be a frustrating process to find someone (sounds like it already has actually) and I sympathize. Ya  I've only set it to depressurize. I probably could put the fan outside if I wanted to go the other way, though i'm not sure the fan would withstand being stored outside. My home brew rig takes a lot of time and effort to place into the window, so I'd want to have my to-do list in order.
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Jan 20, 2021 16:05
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Epitope posted:Ya Since you're depressurizing, the cold temperatures observed at the kitchen hood ducting is understandable. Even if the roof cap has a damper, it won't be a good one so you will be drawing in exterior air down that ducting when you depressurize. this will show coldest where the ducting passes through other layers (like in your image) because at those points the ducts are cooling the materials that the duct is in contact with. Maybe the damper could be improved, maybe the ducts could be sealed better, but overall it's not a result that is surprising. It sounds like you've figured this out, just laying it out clearly to avoid more people saying you should rip the duct out.
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Jan 20, 2021 16:35
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OK so it's for the range, a must have IMO then. Negative pressure is the common way to build here, never had that issue. The vent is insulated at any rate, with a kind of "sock".
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Jan 20, 2021 18:54
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Epitope posted:Hmm, while I feel I am experiencing a horror show, the protrusion wasn't something that struck me. Do you mean the way it was executed, or that it's even there? So outlet gaskets are a thing, so you don't really have to rig that up from caulk saver. Honestly, if it were me I'd pull the outlet out and caulk where all the wires come in with fireblock caulk. How are you on patching drywall? I wonder if you might be better served by getting someone to come in and dense pack cellulose into the walls. This would involve a bunch of holes drilled into stuff, but might solve a bunch of your wall leakage issues. Except for your skylight issue, a bunch of those tasks look like they'd be better served by an insulation/siding company, rather then a GC. Maybe look at BPI certificated people near you?
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Jan 22, 2021 02:49
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Thanks, Tezzer also shared that link. I did manage to get one guy out who has a cert (BA). He's probably the best one I've gotten on site, but he declined to work on it. He quoted me $500 on the phone, then charged me $100 and left. While he didn't say anything very negative out loud, I take that as confirmation of what's being said here- poo poo sucks and no one wants to deal. Also, the only certifications anyone in town has are BA, EA, and QCI. Seems like there's others that would be ideal for me, but sadly none in town. AC and Heat Pump Professional (AC) Whole House Air Leakage Control Installer (ALC) Building Analyst Professional (BA) Crew Leader (CL) Energy Auditor (EA) Envelope Professional (ENV) Heating Professional (HEAT) Healthy Home Evaluator (HHE) Infiltration & Duct Leakage (IDL) Multifamily Building Analyst Professional (MFBA) Multifamily Building Operator Professional (MFBO) Manufactured Housing Professional (MH) Quality Control Inspector (QCI) BPI Rater (Rater) Retrofit Installer Technician (RIT) On my screwing around trying to diagnose- I put some tape on that outlet above the microwave. I didn't plug it up all the way, just over the top such that air coming out wouldn't go up the wall. The wall above it and little ceiling still got cold in the same pattern, so I think there's a good sized air path in that rafter box thing and down the interior wall.
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Jan 22, 2021 21:00
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