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First off, thanks Fritz for the great OP. Me, being an idiot, I was wondering why the religion thread was so quiet and then realized you all had taken my new OP advice and I hadn't noticed. If we're still playing the "what are you" game, I'm a lapsed Catholic. I was raised in the Church and wandered away around 17 or so, in large part due to LGBTQ poo poo. I'm as bog standard of a cist-het male as you'll ever find but I had a friend who a nun and a priest told me not to be friends with because everyone "knew" he was gay. He was not, just an exceedingly socially awkward dork, but in that small town meant that not having a bunch of dates in high school equaled everyone questioning your sexuality. It was kind of a weird non-issue of a thing, but it really got me asking a lot of questions that led to me bailing. I still identify as Catholic culturally. God knows I'm "The Catholic" to the elderly southern baptist relatives of my wife's, but it's not a part of my life in any way that would make an actual practicing Catholic say "yeah, you're one of us." Still, the training runs deep and I instinctively reach for non-existent holy water when I walk in the door of my in-laws church if I get dragged to a Christmas service or whatever. Despite that I've got a broad respect for all religious faiths, with the caveat that I get very critical and pissy when people try to impose their beliefs on others. I don't really know what I believe, personally, but I'd be lying to myself if I tried to claim that my own sense of morality doesn't draw a lot on that Catholic upbringing, albeit more in a "love your neighbor" sense than bullshit dogma about gays and abortion.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:09
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Josef, I don't think this thread is a healthy place for you right now. A lot of what you're posing disturbs me greatly, and I don't think that the conversations in here are doing you any good. Take some time off from this thread. Don't post in here. I wouldn't recommend reading it, although I can't prevent that. Take some time to take care of yourself. I'm worried about you. Please check your PMs. I don't do this lightly, because I truly believe that this need to be a space where people can express themselves freely, but reading the last few pages I'm deeply concerned about the impact that it is having on you. If you would like to post here in the future we can revisit it. This isn't anything permanent. But for the foreseeable future I think it's best that you and this thread part ways.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:19
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Hey Cy, you just confused the hell out of me by saying in the old thread that I still had bookmarked that you'd link to the new one and then failed to actually paste the link.  You forced me to out myself as a dedicated lurker over this, I blame you. Anyway, hi religion thread, doctoral student of philosophy over here and I enjoy your discussions a lot.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:28
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Glutes Are Great posted:Hey Cy, you just confused the hell out of me by saying in the old thread that I still had bookmarked that you'd link to the new one and then failed to actually paste the link. Goddamn, I am really bad at this.  (fixed the old thread) quote:
Turn Left Dale!!! NOOOOO
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Jan 23, 2021 01:31
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Glutes Are Great posted:Hey Cy, you just confused the hell out of me by saying in the old thread that I still had bookmarked that you'd link to the new one and then failed to actually paste the link. A visitor! Welcome! Would you like some coffee? Maybe a donut? Maybe two donuts? What brings you to St. Religionthread's today? 
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Jan 23, 2021 01:31
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Glutes Are Great posted:doctoral student praying for u What area of philosophy, broadly? If you don't mind my asking. Not that I know much about philosophy.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:33
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Oh, a new thread. Hope everyone is doing well. Personally, I think Catholicism is the way to go, but I know a thing or two about the Russian Orthodox Church. And like half a thing about Judaism.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:52
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Cyrano4747 posted:Goddamn, I am really bad at this. See, we both have something we can be ashamed for!! zonohedron posted:A visitor! Welcome! Would you like some coffee? Maybe a donut? Maybe two donuts? What brings you to St. Religionthread's today? I'll take all donuts and a lot of coffee, thank you. So since you asked, I actually started following you guys when the entire pandemic forced lock downs and I got entangled in discussions over whether it was possible, wise or necessary to go to church and it was something I didn't think that much about before, so I wandered around here and got curious how religious life was changed in what way when your life has to come to a certain halt. I wanted to simply ask you guys straight away actually, but you were in the middle of talks already and I enjoyed seeing the answers coming to me that way to see what you guys think or why you think and that's why I stayed. Although not religious myself, I kinda dedicated my life to Fritz the Horse posted:praying for u My main area as a student was metaphysics and epistemology, after I started working for the university I was kinda forced to swap over to focus on philosophy of mind and epistemology, which I still do now. We research and write about the question of knowledge and beliefs, perception and reality in conjunction with existence or the lack there of, mostly while violently fighting against the tendency to evaluate normative questions behind it.  I did do a very interesting course in Christian, Jewish and Islamic concepts of knowledge and opinion uhh i think two years ago now, too, so that's fitting! It circled around the question whether God was the one giving or allowing you knowledge, the ability to learn and collect knowledge or, in contrast to that, the human mind being free in its quest of doing either of those and whether any of those questions moved you in any direction with your faith as a whole.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:52
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To be fair, I think "dedicating [one's] life to being poor and annoying" is a pretty good description of a lot of religious orders!
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Jan 23, 2021 01:54
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That sounds pretty cool and very relevant to religion. The only philosophy I've dabbled in is environmental philosophy and philosophy of science (especially how science and religion interact) and both of those at a pretty amateurish level. In the Before Times I gave talks to middle and high schoolers about climate change a couple times a year. One of my favorite gimmicks was asking the auditorium "do you believe in climate change?" and getting a roaring YES. Then I'd say NOOOO and the looks on kids faces are priceless. Varying mixtures of confused and indignant etc. "Science is not a belief system!" Then I'd talk for a bit about how science works. edit: a couple of times I've noticed some of the teachers get an alarmed look for a few seconds. "wait why the gently caress did we invite this climate denialist??" Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 02:00
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That's really cool! I always felt like scientific theory as a philosophical branch is extraordinarily important, especially nowadays where science is both either put into question by misunderstanding its structure, or used as a belief system just like you said. Religion being something else from that and, as easy as it sounds, the difference between a religious question, a philosophical question and a scientific question, is something that nowadays gets forgotten or ignored so easily. Not even just from a political perspective, but in a very fundamental way. It's scary.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:07
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Fritz the Horse posted:Then I'd say NOOOO and the looks on kids faces are priceless. Varying mixtures of confused and indignant etc. "Science is not a belief system!" Then I'd talk for a bit about how science works. I love everything about this
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Jan 23, 2021 02:26
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zonohedron posted:To be fair, I think "dedicating [one's] life to being poor and annoying" is a pretty good description of a lot of religious orders!
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Jan 23, 2021 03:33
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Hey I'll just say "hi" too - My family attended United Church of Canada services til I was like 7 years old I can remember attending exactly one religious service since then that wasn't a wedding or a funeral (a choral service at Yorkminster). I'm not really anything denominationally, but I'm a mostly-lapsed Renaissance scholar and I'm fond of reading about church history, theology, and just general religous studies questions, and I've found that there are often interesting posts in this thread, and usually pretty good vibes, so that has me bookmarking it and skimming it now and again, and then posting once every hundred pages or so.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:05
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I've been following various iterations of this thread for a few years now. I primarily just lurk here for the good vibes, and good discussions. I was raised as a Christian Scientist but, I'm currently a non-believer and, have been for close to 25 years.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:16
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Shaddak posted:I've been following various iterations of this thread for a few years now. I primarily just lurk here for the good vibes, and good discussions. I was raised as a Christian Scientist but, I'm currently a non-believer and, have been for close to 25 years.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:23
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Nessus posted:What's up with the reading rooms? This has long mystified me. Nothing all that mysterious. They're stocked with various CS books, and copies of The Monitor. Yes, you can purchase books there but, you can also just show up to a reading room and, read anything for free.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:38
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Shaddak posted:Nothing all that mysterious. They're stocked with various CS books, and copies of The Monitor. Yes, you can purchase books there but, you can also just show up to a reading room and, read anything for free. I'd love to hear more about Christian Science if you were inclined to share; I too have seen the reading rooms all over but haven't learned a single thing about it.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:48
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Glutes Are Great posted:That's really cool! I always felt like scientific theory as a philosophical branch is extraordinarily important, especially nowadays where science is both either put into question by misunderstanding its structure, or used as a belief system just like you said. Religion being something else from that and, as easy as it sounds, the difference between a religious question, a philosophical question and a scientific question, is something that nowadays gets forgotten or ignored so easily. Not even just from a political perspective, but in a very fundamental way. It's scary. Nth Doctor posted:I love everything about this That "gimmick" is kind of a rhetorical device to shock the audience and get them engaged and interested. The (very loose) definition of science I usually give is that science is "a tool for understanding the natural (physical) world." It's a lens through which we can study and understand the physical (knocks on the table), material world. Science ain't got poo poo to say about human culture, philosophy, morality, religion, spirituality, etc. I live and teach on a Native American reservation, so a large part of my job is being culturally conscious and relevant. Spirituality and traditional beliefs are super important and I want to recognize and validate them while also boosting confidence in (Western) science. To get somewhat more into philosophy and science, most claims regarding religion and spirituality are not falsifiable. That is, it's not possible to prove them wrong. "A Creator exists." Well, I can't disprove the existence of a Creator entity. And that's very much outside the realm of the natural (physical) world of science. Karl Popper is a good reference for a lot of this stuff though again, I'm really a novice on the philosophy end. I'm a lab scientist by training, I just care about this stuff. I've linked this before but I think Gould's Non-Overlapping Magisteria is a good starting point for discussion of the relationship between religion and science: http://www.blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/449/Gould%20Nonoverlapping%20Magisteria.htm quote:If religion can no longer dictate the nature of factual conclusions properly under the magisterium of science, then scientists cannot claim higher insight into moral truth from any superior knowledge of the world's empirical constitution. This mutual humility has important practical consequences in a world of such diverse passions. Note that Gould is an evolutionary biologist, not a philosopher or theologian.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:00
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I think some of the "belief in science" is because there has been the relentless framing for a lot of people of "do you believe in But that's then the binary they've created: you choose one or another, or both, even if the choice is essentially meaningless and logically incoherent.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:17
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Slimy Hog posted:I'd love to hear more about Christian Science if you were inclined to share; I too have seen the reading rooms all over but haven't learned a single thing about it. Here's the quick and dirty version. You'll have to bear with me here, as I haven't been in Sunday School since I was 14, and I've probably forgotten some things. Christian Science was started in the late 19th/early 20th century (I'm a little hazy on the specific date) by Mary Baker Eddy. I don't remember the exact details but, as I recall, she suffered some kind of accident/illness/injury and, started hearing the voice of God. Christian Science came about during a time of great scientific discoveries and, is an attempt to treat Christianity as a science. The way I see it now, it sounds more like an attempt to take some of the ideas of primitive Christianity and, dress them up with sciencey sounding buzzwords. If I recall correctly, the basic idea goes like this: In the beginning, God created us as beings of pure spirit (with no physical component). And in that initial state, all was well, we understood the true nature of reality, and the true nature of our relationship with God. Though we are beings of spirit, we are imperfect, and as imperfect beings we are susceptible to Error. That is where the illusion comes in. You see, an error crept into our understanding of our true relationship with God. As pure beings of spirit, we cannot suffer from ailments of a physical nature. Death, injury, and illness (and even evil) don't actually exist. They are an illusion created by Error. The physical world, itself, is an illusion created by our belief that we are separate form God. This is where Practitioners come in. They're basically the faith healers of CS. Instead of a laying on of hands, though, it's more like a therapy session. They talk you through your problems, and help you to realize that your problems only exist because you think they do. Have an injury, or illness? It will disappear once you come to understand that injury and illness do not exist. Stuff like that. That brings us to the J-Man. Jesus was a pure being of spirit and, knew this. He was capable of seemingly miraculous deeds because he knew that the physical world wasn't real. He popped in to show us that we are not bound by self-imposed limitations. If we can understand the true nature of our spiritual union with God, then we will transcend the illusion of the physical world and, will exist in perfect union with God. P.S. I made it through Sunday school, but didn't join the church as an adult. So I suppose it's possible that there are some things I'm misinterpreting. Apologies if this is a bit disjointed, it's primarily stream of consciousness (and I'm drunk). It's most of what I could remember from 25 years ago (at least without researching it, that is).
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Jan 23, 2021 07:03
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That just sounds like neo platonism with scientific characteristics.
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Jan 23, 2021 07:31
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Glutes Are Great posted:My main area as a student was metaphysics and epistemology, after I started working for the university I was kinda forced to swap over to focus on philosophy of mind and epistemology, which I still do now. We research and write about the question of knowledge and beliefs, perception and reality in conjunction with existence or the lack there of, mostly while violently fighting against the tendency to evaluate normative questions behind it. Now that right there? That sounds like a fascinating question to argue in the face of omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence.
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Jan 23, 2021 08:46
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Fritz the Horse posted:To get somewhat more into philosophy and science, most claims regarding religion and spirituality are not falsifiable. That is, it's not possible to prove them wrong. "A Creator exists." Well, I can't disprove the existence of a Creator entity. And that's very much outside the realm of the natural (physical) world of science. Academically speaking, Popper counted and still counts as quite extremist in his ideas about science being a collection of theories that are falsifiable, as he demanded that but never got around to do it the other way, describing what science does or how it works. For example, that comes into play when you try to differentiate between scientific cultural studies, say the science of history for example, and asking analytical or normative questions about it. Say, you want to research the pantheon of an ancient religion based on theories you develop and understanding how their gods were described, which, in part, will never be falsifiable. Later on, lesser known philosophers took the starting point Popper set to answer that part, for example Thomas Kuhn or Imre Lakatos, who started to define how falsifying science can or should work and where to draw a line. The latter is also relevant to the matter of science as a belief system, as, like with Popper, denying everything based on something being falsifiable is not very constructive, as is immunizing something against falsification. The latter is qua definition no longer actual science, the former though makes it sheer impossible to gain knowledge from science as you can put everything into question and destroy it that way. This obviously also raises the question of our ability to gain knowledge from theology and philosophy in general. Very interesting stuff to read, if you want to get into it! Liquid Communism posted:Now that right there? That sounds like a fascinating question to argue in the face of omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence. The most basic and also most provocative question he asked about it was, if you read the Bible and learn from it, is it your free mind reading, understanding and believing that is the fundament of your biblical knowledge (or even faith) from now on, or is it God himself sharing a part of his knowledge with your mind? Does asking this question, let alone answering it, change or influence your faith in any way? If God challenges you to be critical about your own knowledge and think for yourself to really embrace him and his grace, that must also include the knowledge you have about him and thus enable critical thinking about your own religion. The professor was mainly focusing on asking these questions and causing raising eyebrows among the students to work on this, but he implied that in his own view, your faith has to be justifiable in front of reason and questioning knowledge about God to understand how he shares knowledge with you is not the same as denying his omnipresence or omnipotence, even though the initial gut reaction might be that we shouldn't ask questions only God could answer. He basically argued that reason is not an enemy of faith but that you can find faith within reason and it's natural for humans, whose reason d'etre is to be curious and question everything, to go down that road and enable meta discussions about your own faith without abandoning it. As such, he pretty much openly engaged with Nietzsche's idea of how our increasing focus on science for the past 300 years has damaged or killed the faith in God and argued that this wasn't the case at all, but that we always had and have to confront our faith with reason and learn from it, neither blindly accepting everything someone says about it, nor blindly rejecting the very idea of faith or God by swapping it for our faith in science.
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Jan 23, 2021 10:54
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Hello. I am a non-church-going christian still looking for the right church. I still give tithes to my parents' church since it's gotta go somewhere. I noticed in the old thread that there's a link to a discord but the invite link is busted. Fritz, may I get a fresh link? I don't mind if it's quiet and I promise to keep it civil.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:35
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Shaddak posted:If I recall correctly, the basic idea goes like this: In the beginning, God created us as beings of pure spirit (with no physical component). And in that initial state, all was well, we understood the true nature of reality, and the true nature of our relationship with God. Though we are beings of spirit, we are imperfect, and as imperfect beings we are susceptible to Error. That is where the illusion comes in. That is not an idea that I as a Jew living in Israel ever encountered in the real world, but it seems rather close to ideas I've read about in some Gnostic influenced roleplaying games. Is Gnostic influence a thing in modern Christian sects or is this purely by chance?
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Jan 23, 2021 19:18
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We're already a couple pages in, but here's my reintro. I've been around since the original liturgigoon megathread. I was raised atheist, spent a few years in Rome (in a radtrad bubble) in my early adult years, and finally became Orthodox about eleven years ago. I mostly lurk around these parts since like a few other posters I lean heavily traditional and conservative and I'm careful about when to reveal my power level. I'm mostly here for the church pix and fun historic fact chat.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:25
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sb hermit posted:Hello. I am a non-church-going christian still looking for the right church. I still give tithes to my parents' church since it's gotta go somewhere. I PM'd you a fresh link. Apparently they expire after one day, so it's not really productive to post them in the thread. ProperGanderPusher posted:We're already a couple pages in, but here's my reintro. I've been around since the original liturgigoon megathread. I was raised atheist, spent a few years in Rome (in a radtrad bubble) in my early adult years, and finally became Orthodox about eleven years ago. I mostly lurk around these parts since like a few other posters I lean heavily traditional and conservative and I'm careful about when to reveal my power level. I see a lot of people posting about their political leanings. As I'm sure you know as a longtime reader in these threads, things sometimes get a little heated around political/doctrinal issues but mostly the thread is chill. I think the key is this is not a debate thread, we're not going to change each other's minds on abortion/right-to-life and such but we can learn from the discussion. Personally I thought the IVF discussion last fall was interesting and not something I'd really given much thought previous to then.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:35
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If you hit the edit (on desktop) or cog (mobile) button next to the invite link field, you should be able to set it to never expire. Thanks for entertaining my silly hell question, all!  I’m actually surprised Dante made that all up, since I was under the impression the older churches have built up a pretty detailed cosmology of angels and such.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:44
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Fritz the Horse posted:I PM'd you a fresh link. Apparently they expire after one day, so it's not really productive to post them in the thread. They expire after one day by default, but you can change that. This is a permanent invite link to the discord: https://discord.gg/8GFHu4Tczz
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Jan 23, 2021 22:21
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Siivola posted:If you hit the edit (on desktop) or cog (mobile) button next to the invite link field, you should be able to set it to never expire. The Christianity Cinematic Universe.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:38
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Nessus posted:I wonder how much was Dante's original creation and how much was the like... penumbra of ideas that develop around a religion which don't go against it, but aren't doctrine, or even theologically related. Like the various theories and practices in Tibetan Buddhism do connect back to core Buddhist ideas in a way that the details of devotion to a Jizo statue in Japan do not. Please, the term is heterodoxy! And it is everywhere.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:47
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Night10194 posted:Please, the term is heterodoxy! And it is everywhere. I remember hearing a piece of particularly detailed trivia here from a Catholic. One might well hope and pray, and believe, that God will take everyone to Heaven, and that nobody will be in Hell except maybe Satan. But you have to allow for the possibility to be in line with the Catholic perspective. Similarly, you don't have to believe that witchcraft is active, common, or anything like a reasonable explanation of phenomena observed now, but you have to admit the theoretical possibility.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:54
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Nessus posted:What's it mean exactly? Is that the stuff which is like "this doesn't go against the teachings, but it doesn't go towards them either." Yes precisely. It's stuff that isn't heresy, isn't necessarily orthodoxy, and isn't a problem.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:55
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Gaius Marius posted:That just sounds like neo platonism with scientific characteristics. By popular demand posted:That is not an idea that I as a Jew living in Israel ever encountered in the real world, but it seems rather close to ideas I've read about in some Gnostic influenced roleplaying games. I'm going to have to say yes to both of these. Now, I don't know enough about the founding of the sect to know if this was intentional. I definitely get the impression, though, that Eddy borrowed a lot of old ideas. As far as gnostic influence in modern Christianity goes, I'm not sure. I've never read of another modern sect with similar ideas.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:10
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Shaddak posted:I'm going to have to say yes to both of these. Now, I don't know enough about the founding of the sect to know if this was intentional. I definitely get the impression, though, that Eddy borrowed a lot of old ideas. As far as gnostic influence in modern Christianity goes, I'm not sure. I've never read of another modern sect with similar ideas.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:17
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I’m late to the what are you thing. Grew up Methodist in a big congregation. Married a seminary student and am now ELCA Lutheran. I like Christian existentialism and Tillich a bit too much, bordering on being obsessive about it.
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Jan 24, 2021 01:10
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Fritz the Horse posted:I see a lot of people posting about their political leanings. As I'm sure you know as a longtime reader in these threads, things sometimes get a little heated around political/doctrinal issues but mostly the thread is chill. I think the key is this is not a debate thread, we're not going to change each other's minds on abortion/right-to-life and such but we can learn from the discussion. Personally I thought the IVF discussion last fall was interesting and not something I'd really given much thought previous to then. Sometimes I don't contribute to a conversation because I'm generally-speaking socially conservative, but not because I think the thread will tar and feather me, more because, generally speaking, I figure nobody wants to hear "well sure you all think this and do that, but the Church teaches such-and-such" unprompted. It's not noteworthy, funny, or helpful. Among the things I appreciate about the thread: I don't have to qualify what I mean by "Catholic Church" most of the time. (I have posted places where I needed to explicitly disclaim that I meant the worldwide organization in full, unimpaired communion with the Pope, because otherwise if I said "the Catholic Church does not ordain women," people would point out that the Anglicans did and the Anglicans thought they were part of the Catholic Church so how dare I &c. &c.)
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Jan 24, 2021 01:38
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m late to the what are you thing. Grew up Methodist in a big congregation. Married a seminary student and am now ELCA Lutheran. I like Christian existentialism and Tillich a bit too much, bordering on being obsessive about it. to you i say: post boldly
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Jan 24, 2021 02:44
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Fritz the Horse posted:I PM'd you a fresh link. Apparently they expire after one day, so it's not really productive to post them in the thread. I remember at least one poster who was a novice nun (Aisha?) who was more or less drummed out of this thread and called a bigot for opposing women’s ordination. I guess that one instance left a bad taste in my mouth. A lot of the worst shitstirrers who I won’t name appear to be banned now so at least there’s that.
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Jan 24, 2021 03:40
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