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Nessus posted:I think some of these ideas aren't necessarily explicitly borrowed as derived from the same sources. Like a lot of people seem to read the Bible and independently reinvent Arianism. Fair point. I just remember reading up on the gnostics a long time ago, and thinking it sounded weirdly familiar.
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Jan 24, 2021 05:41
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Glutes Are Great posted:Later on, lesser known philosophers took the starting point Popper set to answer that part, for example Thomas Kuhn or Imre Lakatos, who started to define how falsifying science can or should work and where to draw a line. The latter is also relevant to the matter of science as a belief system, as, like with Popper, denying everything based on something being falsifiable is not very constructive, as is immunizing something against falsification. The latter is qua definition no longer actual science, the former though makes it sheer impossible to gain knowledge from science as you can put everything into question and destroy it that way. This obviously also raises the question of our ability to gain knowledge from theology and philosophy in general. Very interesting stuff to read, if you want to get into it! As I recall, Lakatos also expanded upon the idea of the secondary, embeded, hypothesis, cautioning that when a larger hypothesis is falsified a la Popper, it might actually still be sound but a secondary, perhaps unarticulated, secondary hypothesis might be the error. Basically this means "be aware of and state your assumptions" in my mind because its a process of refining theory over time. We scientists (I'm an evolutionary biologist, but I interact with the philosophy of science department) don't actually deal with the large scale, overarching theory in our day to day work, but pick around the secondary (or tertiary) hypothesis. Its a rare person (like Gould) that synthesizes large scale theory. Popper was interesting enough (until I hit the heavy symbolic logic), but Kuhn was a great read.
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Jan 24, 2021 06:23
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Yeah we do a lot of wild-rear end induction in my field (earth science broadly, oceanography/limnology specifically) because falsifying hypotheses about regional/global scale systems is uh not terribly feasible. We end up doing a lot of laboratory ("bottle") experiments and trying to extrapolate that to large-scale natural phenomena which requires a ton of hand-waving. My absolute favorite thing about my and related fields is the underlying assumption of "assuming equilibrium / steady-state..." because lol that the real world is ever in equilibrium. It's just a necessary assumption to make a lot of modeling and extrapolation work. But like, religion and spirituality are examples of things that are definitely not falsifiable (mostly) and definitely outside the scope of science. At some point I should reprise my rant on uniformitarianism vs. catastrophism which is very relevant to the historical interaction between religion and science. edit: I should also add my field involves processes that occur on geologic timescales which again, not falsifiable in any reasonable sense. Like I can confidently state that the cooler climate of the Cenozoic era we live in is largely due to silicate weathering of the Himalaya uplift which started ~60-70 million years ago. Just lol falsifying things which occur on a timescale of "tens of millions of years" Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 09:37
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Fritz the Horse posted:edit: I should also add my field involves processes that occur on geologic timescales which again, not falsifiable in any reasonable sense. Like I can confidently state that the cooler climate of the Cenozoic era we live in is largely due to silicate weathering of the Himalaya uplift which started ~60-70 million years ago. Just lol falsifying things which occur on a timescale of "tens of millions of years"
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Jan 24, 2021 10:20
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Just wanted to share that our youngest child will be babtised in about an hour. It's weird, having to stream the babtism from your home to all the relatives and recording it for those who can't participate in the live version. We can only have our own family, the godparents and the priest here and we're at the safety limit. All will be wearing masks, which, I assume, will be discussed with the little fellow a lot when he grows up.
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Jan 24, 2021 11:22
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Valiantman posted:Just wanted to share that our youngest child will be babtised in about an hour. It's weird, having to stream the babtism from your home to all the relatives and recording it for those who can't participate in the live version. We can only have our own family, the godparents and the priest here and we're at the safety limit. All will be wearing masks, which, I assume, will be discussed with the little fellow a lot when he grows up. I think my favorite example of covid and sacraments lately was a Jewish friend of mine who got married in October. Her fiance, now wife, is blind on top of that. Given the circumstances, the entire wedding was conducted as a skype video conference with everyone except the rabbi, even the brides, in jeans-and-t-shirt standard.  https://i.imgur.com/0PXx3X4.mp4 Edit: Sound on. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 14:12
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Cythereal posted:I think my favorite example of covid and sacraments lately was a Jewish friend of mine who got married in October. Her fiance, now wife, is blind on top of that. Given the circumstances, the entire wedding was conducted as a skype video conference with everyone except the rabbi, even the brides, in jeans-and-t-shirt standard. Just felt like boasting again that my cat allows the bellyscratch. But only if she is being cradled upside-down in my arms like a baby. Then it is okay. At all other times it's cause for murders. My cat is very old and has many rules. Which pets are allowed is entirely based on which sleeping spot she's in. We can cuddle at night if I'm lying on my right side, but if I'm on my left side, that is *incorrect*. I'm saying I think my cat has set herself up as the head of a religion and I am her one cultist trying to extrapolate meaning from a million apparently-random rules and I am sure she has a greater purpose in mind, but I cannot comprehend it.  (in this position belly scratch is okay but don't withdraw your hand too fast, lest you be seized)
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Jan 24, 2021 14:34
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CrypticFox posted:They expire after one day by default, but you can change that. This is a permanent invite link to the discord: https://discord.gg/8GFHu4Tczz I'm dropping this in the OP. If you'd all prefer it not be there I can remove it.
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Jan 24, 2021 15:40
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Hey all. I'm a lifelong Christian but a bit of an ecumenical mutt. I grew up Presbyterian though my dad was president of a Baptist seminary. I went to a Baptist church when I was in graduate school but am now attending a United Methodist church while teaching at a Nazarene University. I really appreciate the tenor of conversation in these threads that I've read, hope to contribute a bit more in the future.
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Jan 24, 2021 17:26
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ManifunkDestiny posted:ecumenical mutt Good username material.
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Jan 24, 2021 17:37
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ManifunkDestiny posted:Hey all. I'm a lifelong Christian but a bit of an ecumenical mutt. I grew up Presbyterian though my dad was president of a Baptist seminary. I went to a Baptist church when I was in graduate school but am now attending a United Methodist church while teaching at a Nazarene University. I really appreciate the tenor of conversation in these threads that I've read, hope to contribute a bit more in the future. Welcome! What's a nazarene university?
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Jan 24, 2021 21:20
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Tias posted:Welcome! What's a nazarene university? One of the six universities in the US that is affiliated with and financially supported by the Nazarene Church of the US
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Jan 24, 2021 23:12
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fun fact about the church of the nazarene is that while they are generally more conservative, they are also one of the first denominations in america to have women pastors. i think they're a good example for why one should remember that western christianly in america doesn't just break down into the three categories we typically talk about of catholic, evangelical, and mainline
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Jan 25, 2021 00:03
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HopperUK posted:My old boss was a big fan of Kali as I recall, but my boss now is more into Shiva. I used to work with a young guy who had a little statue of Ganesha on his desk. Love the statue game in Hinduism! Not really in the mood to effortpost on my phone rn but Ganesh/a is EASILY the most popular Hindu minor deity. He's cute, he's distinctive, and he's the god of luck, business, and entrepreneurship - so he's pretty handy to have on your side in day to day life. and the origin story of his head is very, very funny
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Jan 25, 2021 01:27
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Fritz the Horse posted:I see a lot of people posting about their political leanings. As I'm sure you know as a longtime reader in these threads, things sometimes get a little heated around political/doctrinal issues but mostly the thread is chill. I think the key is this is not a debate thread, we're not going to change each other's minds on abortion/right-to-life and such but we can learn from the discussion. Personally I thought the IVF discussion last fall was interesting and not something I'd really given much thought previous to then. I'd also like to hear more conservative peoples' opinions on matters of theology out of curiosities sake, but I know that for some people there are opinions that given even a chance to be heard are very hurtful and alienating so I don't know how free ranging such discussions could be. GreyjoyBastard posted:and the origin story of his head is very, very funny Not one he's likely to forget I'd imagine.
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Jan 25, 2021 03:37
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White Coke posted:I'd also like to hear more conservative peoples' opinions on matters of theology out of curiosities sake, but I know that for some people there are opinions that given even a chance to be heard are very hurtful and alienating so I don't know how free ranging such discussions could be. Fundamental disagreements about the deepest parts of the human experience are likely to be hurtful and alienating from time to time. This thread has been able to handle those disagreements in a pretty genial live-and-let-live way. Why not continue? If it's too intense for some, there's always every other thread on the forums.
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Jan 25, 2021 04:43
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White Coke posted:Not one he's likely to forget I'd imagine. I always love retelling this one. Shiva's wife - let's call her Parvati for the purposes of this story, Shiva comes sauntering up to come visit his wife and is confronted by this short dipshit with a stupid little pointy stick. "Halt! The Goddess has commanded me to keep you from entering!" "Really? Are you serious? I'm her husband, and a god, you little moron!" "I have been told to bar the way against even gods, and so I shall!" So, being a reasonable, level-headed dude like most of the pantheon, Shiva chops his head off and continues on. "Hey wife, good to see you!" "Hey husband, great to see you too! I assume you met our son on the way in, were you impressed with his bravery?" "Our... uh... excuse me, I forgot to wash the cat. Be right back." Shiva calls his minions together. "Alright, folks. This is a vital, top secret, and extremely urgent mission. I want you guys to go find the head of a living creature and bring it back to me. PROMPTLY." The first of his minions to return has an elephant head in hand and he rapidly attaches it to the body of the son he inadvertently decapitated, as his wife emerges from her bath. "See? Good as new!" and that's why ganesh is the god of luck: because he didn't bleed out before his idiot father could find a replacement head Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 05:15
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White Coke posted:I'd also like to hear more conservative peoples' opinions on matters of theology out of curiosities sake, but I know that for some people there are opinions that given even a chance to be heard are very hurtful and alienating so I don't know how free ranging such discussions could be. Captain von Trapp posted:Fundamental disagreements about the deepest parts of the human experience are likely to be hurtful and alienating from time to time. This thread has been able to handle those disagreements in a pretty genial live-and-let-live way. Why not continue? If it's too intense for some, there's always every other thread on the forums. I may be wrong here, but I think the thread can handle things like "my faith tradition believes that marriage is only between a man and a woman" or "I believe reproductive matters are up to the individual choice of a woman." Many of us will disagree, but that's OK. imo the problem has been posters pairing statements like the above with support of applying those to society or people that don't share their beliefs. It's one thing to hold sincere beliefs based on your religious tradition, it's another to post here that you think those beliefs should be imposed on people who don't agree with you. Does that make sense? "I support X" is probably not going to offend people unless you make it personal by also saying "X should be law" or "I support a theocracy enforcing X." edit: Also I am neither a mod nor an arbiter of what is/isn't acceptable in this thread. We have a pretty great community of posters and lurkers who understand the bounds of what's accepted in this thread vs. liable to cause drama. I'm confident we can self-police just fine. That said, there are several mods and an admin watching this thread and I'm sure you could PM them and get a quick response if someone is trying to cause trouble. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 05:15
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Shiva calls his minions together. "Alright, folks. This is a vital, top secret, and extremely urgent mission. I want you guys to go find the head of a living creature and bring it back to me. PROMPTLY." The first of his minions to return has an elephant head in hand and he rapidly attaches it to the body of the son he inadvertently decapitated, as his wife emerges from her bath. "See? Good as new!" Shoudn't it be the body of a living creature? 
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Jan 25, 2021 05:20
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Captain von Trapp posted:Shoudn't it be the body of a living creature? i feel like perhaps early South Asians were not seasoned anatomists
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Jan 25, 2021 05:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So, being a reasonable, level-headed dude like most of the pantheon, Shiva chops his head off and continues on. "Hey wife, good to see you!" "Hey husband, great to see you too! I assume you met our son on the way in, were you impressed with his bravery?" "Our... uh... excuse me, I forgot to wash the cat. Be right back." post/av text combo
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Jan 25, 2021 05:30
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Captain von Trapp posted:Fundamental disagreements about the deepest parts of the human experience are likely to be hurtful and alienating from time to time. This thread has been able to handle those disagreements in a pretty genial live-and-let-live way. Why not continue? If it's too intense for some, there's always every other thread on the forums.
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Jan 25, 2021 05:42
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Fritz the Horse posted:edit: I should also add my field involves processes that occur on geologic timescales which again, not falsifiable in any reasonable sense. Like I can confidently state that the cooler climate of the Cenozoic era we live in is largely due to silicate weathering of the Himalaya uplift which started ~60-70 million years ago. Just lol falsifying things which occur on a timescale of "tens of millions of years" I'm a paleontologist. There are ways to frame the work in a falsificationist framework, mostly stemming from establishing the inferential validity. But yeah we can't exactly run an experiment in the lab. Gould speaks in detail about this. re: Church of Nazarene: there was one at the end of my street where I would catch my bus to school every day. I always wondered what their deal was. Of course, my church was across the street from our house, and the bible college my parents met at two blocks away so I'm sure I asked when I was a kid and was told "they aren't 'real' Christians," like every other sect that wasn't ours.
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Jan 25, 2021 06:05
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I always love retelling this one. hahahahaha that's great
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Jan 25, 2021 06:09
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Fritz the Horse posted:edit: No but you're the bestest horse in these here parts, and that counts for a lot.
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Jan 25, 2021 06:21
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I can confirm, Commandment #11 is "Fritz is the best horse" (#12 is eat some veggies you guys, ffs)
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Jan 25, 2021 06:27
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I agree with Fritz. Talking about how our beliefs affect how we live is super important. Arguing that beliefs, especially regarding one's behavior, should be enshrined in law is way beyond the purview of our thread.
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Jan 25, 2021 06:36
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Bilirubin posted:I'm a paleontologist. There are ways to frame the work in a falsificationist framework, mostly stemming from establishing the inferential validity. vertebrate or inveterbrate? I went to grad school with a bunch of invert paleontologists. no need to answer if it'd doxx you too much  I'm a biogeochemist. all the paleontologist friends I had were wizards with sed-strat which is totally outside my area of expertise
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Jan 25, 2021 06:48
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Fritz the Horse posted:vertebrate or inveterbrate? I went to grad school with a bunch of invert paleontologists. no need to answer if it'd doxx you too much Cool hi! Biochem is something I missed but am getting via a current student in spades. I'm vert but my undergrad was in geology so I know both invert and sed-strat (and structure) pretty well. (I liked chemistry so much in ugrad I almost switched to metamorphic petrology for my focus, its so cool)
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Jan 25, 2021 06:59
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By popular demand posted:I can confirm, Commandment #11 is "Fritz is the best horse" ThePopeOfFun posted:I agree with Fritz. Talking about how our beliefs affect how we live is super important. Arguing that beliefs, especially regarding one's behavior, should be enshrined in law is way beyond the purview of our thread. Nth Doctor posted:No but you're the bestest horse in these here parts, and that counts for a lot. Thanks guys :S Here is me enjoying my dinner, I hope you all are enjoying a similarly high-fiber diet:  ThePopeOfFun posted:I agree with Fritz. Talking about how our beliefs affect how we live is super important. Arguing that beliefs, especially regarding one's behavior, should be enshrined in law is way beyond the purview of our thread. What I was trying to get at is expressing your personal beliefs is fine. Suggesting the religious beliefs/doctrine you adhere to should apply to others is going to ruffle some feathers. Just to use a personal example: I'm a gay horse. I'm not offended if someone here posts along the lines of "my religious tradition believes marriage is between a male horse and female horse and does not recognize same-sex horse unions." I respect your beliefs and tradition even if I disagree. Where I would get prickly is if you suggest your tradition or personal beliefs should be applied to society as a whole. There's a difference between "I personally or my tradition believes X" and "I would like a society where X applies to you" because that makes it personal. edit: Bilirubin posted:Cool hi! Biochem is something I missed but am getting via a current student in spades. I'm vert but my undergrad was in geology so I know both invert and sed-strat (and structure) pretty well. sweet! we went fossil hunting all the time as kids, I have a large collection of Cenozoic mammal fossils. lots of ?camel? and ?toed horse? teeth, bone fragments, petrified wood etc. I'm in South Dakota, we have lots of fossil beds 'round here Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 07:03
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Hello new thread. I'll reserve this space to write a longer introduction later, but I am a "super Jew." Like went to yeshiva, studied for orthodox ordination as a woman. I'm marrying my partner, a progressive rabbi, and I live with him and his father, an Orthodox rabbi. [More Jewy stuff goes here] Nice to see you all again
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Jan 25, 2021 08:51
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Cool, a prestige class! What powers does it afford you?  ((you too!  ))
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Jan 25, 2021 09:13
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WrenP-Complete posted:Hello new thread. I was literally just thinking about you and your beloved a minute before scrolling your post onto view! I can't recall: have you guys set a date yet or are you awaiting the after times?
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Jan 25, 2021 14:04
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Fritz the Horse posted:Many good words about how to discuss tough subjects without them getting too personal. I agree, well said. Still, I feel I need to comment "out loud" on what you said, for the benefit of the thread in general if not anyone else: Christianity has missionary work, to use computer terms, hardwired into it. Jesus straight up commanded us to bring the message about him to the whole world and make everyone his disciples through babtism and teaching. He certainly didn't mean us to force faith or any specific way of life on anyone but that command does contain the idea that the most important thing in life is to follow Jesus. (What that means depends on who you ask.) In even more plain terms, Christianity is fundamentally more or less at odds with pretty much everything else in the world. So, depending on your faith tradition or your own personal faith, some things might be so close to the core that they are hard to discuss. That doesn't we shouldn't try. We have sailed through some pretty rocky waters here in the past, and luckily most people agree with radical manifestos such as "everyone should be equally precious" or "don't be a dick".
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Jan 25, 2021 14:26
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My faith tradition explicitly doesn't hold that its beliefs should be enshrined in secular law (partly because of what happened the last time Anabaptists tried that), to the point that the question of whether we should vote in elections is still being asked among Mennonites today and it's recent enough in the grand scheme of things that the answer was even sometimes "yes". What this thread has (mostly) been good at in the past is seeing each other as people, rather than just as opposing viewpoints to be shut down, and that's why I think we've often been more successful than expected in discussing contentious things. I think if someone's made uncomfortable by a specific discussion then that discussion should probably end (or at least be taken elsewhere), but beyond that I don't think we need shy away from grappling with what we see as important.
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Jan 25, 2021 15:44
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docbeard posted:(partly because of what happened the last time Anabaptists tried that) Hmm what happened??
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Jan 25, 2021 16:28
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Fritz the Horse posted:Hmm what happened?? It turns out that apocalyptic sex cults are not actually that great a time.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:31
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docbeard posted:It turns out that apocalyptic sex cults are not actually that great a time. Good thing we've all learned that lesson from history and nobody has tried it since.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:36
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Fritz the Horse posted:Hmm what happened?? https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-48-prophets-of-doom/ Sorry it's behind a paywall
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Jan 25, 2021 17:11
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_rebellion
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Jan 25, 2021 17:17
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