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Yeah I'm familiar with the Munster rebellion in general terms, just wondered if docbeard had a favorite telling of that history.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:00
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Fritz the Horse posted:Yeah I'm familiar with the Munster rebellion in general terms, just wondered if docbeard had a favorite telling of that history. It relates to my own family history. Two Swiss Anabaptist/Mennonite brothers fled persecution in Switzerland down the Rhine on a raft in the latter half of the 17th century. They spent some time in the Netherlands, then crossed over to England and caught a ship to America in 1719. They joined the Pennsylvania Dutch community around Lancaster, PA (their original homestead still stands, apparently). After the American revolution, they moved to Canada to remain British subjects. The Great Depression sent my grandfather to the US to work for Ford, who then moved him to Michigan during WWII.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:25
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Reading the news lately made me think of this thread:quote:“Every tool has its value, and that great communicator who was Paul of Tarsus would certainly have made use of email and social messaging,” the pope said in the message, titled “Come and See”. You guys remind me a lot of Paul, if he had access to the internet. I think about his trollish argument in Galatians 5 a lot. "Oh, circumcision is so great? Why don't you go all the way and cut your whole penis off?" 
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Jan 25, 2021 19:32
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William Bear posted:You guys remind me a lot of Paul, if he had access to the internet. I think about his trollish argument in Galatians 5 a lot. And people say Martin Luther was the first poo poo poster.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:43
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Fritz the Horse posted:Yeah I'm familiar with the Munster rebellion in general terms, just wondered if docbeard had a favorite telling of that history. Nothing I've read recently, alas. I need to track down some of the old church history textbooks I used in high school because it was amazing how defensive they got about how the Munster Rebellion wasn't representative of Anabaptism as a whole. Deteriorata posted:It relates to my own family history. Two Swiss Anabaptist/Mennonite brothers fled persecution in Switzerland down the Rhine on a raft in the latter half of the 17th century. They spent some time in the Netherlands, then crossed over to England and caught a ship to America in 1719. I think my folks settled in Ohio (or at least that's where all the family history I'm aware of comes out of, though I don't really know much pre my great-grandparents leaving the Amish church to become Mennonites) or else I'd think we were distantly related. (There probably is a nonzero chance of that.)
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Jan 25, 2021 21:44
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White Coke posted:And people say Martin Luther was the first poo poo poster. There's a reason that people in the church were very happy about Paul's calling to go preach the gospel WAY OUT THERE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:45
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Started reading Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. I've only finished the first chapter but it's pretty engaging so far.docbeard posted:I think my folks settled in Ohio (or at least that's where all the family history I'm aware of comes out of, though I don't really know much pre my great grandparents leaving the Amish church to become Mennonites) or else I'd think we were distantly related. Could you speak to the differences between Anabaptist denominations?
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Jan 26, 2021 00:59
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The Cost of Discipleship is solid. Barth’s Humanity of God is a good follow up. I made a list of books my son’s godfather should give my sons if I died and they wanted to know what I believed: The Cost of Discipleship The Humanity of God Moral Man and Immoral Society The Irony of American History Dynamics of Faith
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Jan 26, 2021 01:39
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Thanks for the recommendations. I've also got C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity on my book shelf. I read it years ago so I'll probably pick it up again soon. What's the deal with your text/avatar combo? I can't figure out who the saint is.
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Jan 26, 2021 01:54
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White Coke posted:What's the deal with your text/avatar combo? I can't figure out who the saint is. I got the avatar with a red text for pissing somebody off. I used to post in the D&D religion threads regularly and someone gave it to me. I don’t know who it is. It grew on me over time so I just kept it when I changed the text.
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Jan 26, 2021 03:09
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I got the avatar with a red text for pissing somebody off. I used to post in the D&D religion threads regularly and someone gave it to me. I don’t know who it is. It grew on me over time so I just kept it when I changed the text. GIS says it's the martyrdom of St. Stephen.
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Jan 26, 2021 03:12
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White Coke posted:Could you speak to the differences between Anabaptist denominations? The ones I know about, sure! The big two that most people have heard of are the Mennonites and the Amish. The Amish, of course, are the group that most people know a little bit about, plain dress, horses and buggies, no electricity hooked up to the home, etc. It's not really about shunning technology or modernity so much as it is about separating oneself from the wider world. This can lead to some odd technicalities like having mobile phones being okay as long as they're not stored in the home, can't own an automobile but can ride buses or hire people to drive you around, etc. The way I heard it expressed to me is that it's up to the local bishop to interpret what's okay and what isn't, so different Amish communities can have different standards. There are groups, usually referred to as "Old Order Mennonites" or something similar that do the same kinds of things but the mainstream Mennonite church is not particularly distinct from other Protestant groups (I think the Methodists in particular are quite close to us in both worship style and theology) with the exception that we are, like the Quakers/Friends (and like the church that Bonhoeffer was part of, I believe) pacifists. There are also groups like the Hutterites that I don't know much about, and the Church of the Brethren, who are very similar to Mennonites. (I think there are minor differences in the way we baptize people.)
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Jan 26, 2021 14:06
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White Coke posted:Started reading Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. I've only finished the first chapter but it's pretty engaging so far. for those of you who aren't familiar, dietrich bonhoeffer was a german pastor and theologian who also, you know, actively worked to stop the nazis
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Jan 26, 2021 14:15
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Fritz the Horse posted:Also I am neither a mod nor an arbiter of what is/isn't acceptable in this thread. We have a pretty great community of posters and lurkers who understand the bounds of what's accepted in this thread vs. liable to cause drama. I'm confident we can self-police just fine. Yup, this is more or less how this place operates. But, just to clear something up: I'm actually the IK of this thread. Back a few months before I got admin'd (I think like a year and a half ago) this thread was kinda in a rough spot and some of the other mods had noticed that I was occasionally active in it so I agreed to IK it. I did a few thing to try and smooth poo poo out and I've been minding the shop ever since. Fun fact, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on the forums to hold all three levels of forums authority at once: - I'm an admin, - I'm the mod of TFR and SAL, - and I'm the IK of this thread. It's like I'm playing a game of forums Crusader Kings and I've managed to become emperor, king of a section of my own empire, and then a duke who is a vassal of a king in a neighboring kingdom but who is also under the jurisdiction of my empire. The forums power structure is very HRE, is what I'm saying. Anyways, if something in this thread is bothering you just PM me. Or file a report, I keep an eye on this thread specificaly. edit: typing that I just realized that I might be the only IK with access to the forums reports.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:19
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Lutha Mahtin posted:for those of you who aren't familiar, dietrich bonhoeffer was a german pastor and theologian who also, you know, actively worked to stop the nazis And executed by the nazis out of spite just weeks before the end of the war.
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Jan 26, 2021 17:20
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The only stuff I remember about hutterites are that they still practice communal ownership of property and anti-resistance, that is, whatever the government of their locality does to them, they do not react against it.
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Jan 26, 2021 17:50
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There are a lot of Hutterite colonies in the Dakotas and yes they do communal ownership. They have little self-sustained communities out in the middle of nowhere. They don't entirely shun modern technology and enthusiastically make use of modern agricultural/industrial machinery. My uncle did a lot of electrical work for Hutterite colonies, they have big poultry and meatpacking shops. They sell a lot of produce to local grocery stores. You'll run into groups of Hutterites at like Walmart all the time. A family of people in traditional clothes, talking in German, then they take their Walmart stuff out to the car. edit: the historical background of the Hutterites and others on the northern Plains is they're largely Germans from Russia. Catherine the Great (German herself) invited German settlers to farm the Volga region with guarantees they wouldn't be conscripted into the army and would have freedom of religion. Quite a few Anabaptist groups took that offer, they were often not welcome in much of Europe because they refused to serve in the military or pay taxes that would fund the military. The exemption from conscription and freedom of religion didn't last and most of them emigrated starting in the 1860s. Many settled in the northern Plains because they were experienced in dryland agriculture and familiar with steppe climates. German Russians have a reputation for being more conservative/traditional than other German immigrant groups. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 18:35
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the older generations of "germans from russia" have a really amazing accent that is tinged with characteristics of german and russian. sadly i bet there aren't many of them left these days
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Jan 26, 2021 20:05
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Fritz the Horse posted:edit: the historical background of the Hutterites and others on the northern Plains is they're largely Germans from Russia. Catherine the Great (German herself) invited German settlers to farm the Volga region with guarantees they wouldn't be conscripted into the army and would have freedom of religion. Quite a few Anabaptist groups took that offer, they were often not welcome in much of Europe because they refused to serve in the military or pay taxes that would fund the military. The exemption from conscription and freedom of religion didn't last and most of them emigrated starting in the 1860s. Many settled in the northern Plains because they were experienced in dryland agriculture and familiar with steppe climates. German Russians have a reputation for being more conservative/traditional than other German immigrant groups.
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Jan 26, 2021 22:07
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There is also a sizeable community of Russian-speaking Germans in Kazakhstan, mostly Protestants, and some Catholics. They established some villages there back in the 19th century, and then later many ethnic Germans were deported there from all over USSR.
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Jan 27, 2021 00:05
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Paladinus posted:There is also a sizeable community of Russian-speaking Germans in Kazakhstan, mostly Protestants, and some Catholics. They established some villages there back in the 19th century, and then later many ethnic Germans were deported there from all over USSR. yup those are the remnants that didn't bail My great-grandmother (everyone refers to her as grossmutter) was still alive when I was a toddler, she grew up speaking German and taught herself English by doing her children's grade-school homework. That side of the family were part owners/editors of Dakota Freie Presse which was the major newspaper for German Russians globally. An interesting thing I did not know, quote:In 1924, the DFP became the first paper published in the United States to be allowed re-entry into the Soviet Union. It's an important ethnic group in the region but doesn't have much cachet in the broader culture. I think a lot of that is because of the World Wars, German language and identity in America got very unpopular. (for whatever reason an unusually large proportion of the posters in this thread are from the Upper Midwest)
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Jan 27, 2021 02:20
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Apologies if this is straying too far off-topic, but can anyone recommend any good books on the topic of German immigration to the US, particularly the Upper Midwest? My mother's family is German Catholics in Minnesota (and my grandfather spoke German as his first/home language, which I only learned a few years ago). I'm going to ask my mom about what family history she knows and if anyone on that side has done any genealogical work, but a general book on the history of those immigrants would be really interesting.
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Jan 27, 2021 02:33
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Antivehicular posted:Apologies if this is straying too far off-topic, but can anyone recommend any good books on the topic of German immigration to the US, particularly the Upper Midwest? My mother's family is German Catholics in Minnesota (and my grandfather spoke German as his first/home language, which I only learned a few years ago). I'm going to ask my mom about what family history she knows and if anyone on that side has done any genealogical work, but a general book on the history of those immigrants would be really interesting. Well, related to my previous post, one of the owner/editors of Dakota Freie Presse wrote a book on migration of the Volga Germans. There are a couple copies that are family heirlooms. It just so happens to be completely digitized and free! A son of Colonia the forgotten by Gustav Gottlieb Wenzlaff https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b28459&view=1up&seq=9 That might be more specific than what you're looking for if what you want is a more general text. This is about the history of the Russian Germans and one family's migration to the Dakotas.
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Jan 27, 2021 02:41
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That sounds really cool, thanks!
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Jan 27, 2021 04:05
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Also up on skimming some of that book, I should note it has some pretty gross glorification of The German Race and talks about how Russian Germans were purer than those back in the German Empire. It was published in 1937. So, y'know.
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Jan 27, 2021 04:30
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An argument I've see pop up is: religious experiences can be caused by drugs like LSD, or by medical conditions like schizophrenia, so therefore any and all religious phenomena are explicable by these means and therefore "untrue". On a secular, materialistic level this appeals to me because I just want some kind of an answer. The biggest hole in this is that so much of it isn't falsifiable since we have no way of testing whether Joan of Arc was schizophrenic, or if Moses was high when he saw the burning bush, etc. Another red flag is that the people I see pushing this theory aren't neuroscientists or anything like that, they're just random people so I don't know how removed this argument is from its sources. Can anyone with more knowledge speak to this issue?
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Jan 27, 2021 05:08
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White Coke posted:An argument I've see pop up is: religious experiences can be caused by drugs like LSD, or by medical conditions like schizophrenia, so therefore any and all religious phenomena are explicable by these means and therefore "untrue". I don't know the people in specific so I can't speculate as to motive. I think that if you are not religious, or associate religious experience with bad experiences, an explanation which dismisses the religious experience in this manner would be very appealing. It would dismiss the topic entirely, to the intensity that you prefer, whether it be "this is all founded in the artistic expression of people who we would now consider mentally ill" to "everyone who subscribes to a religious philosophy or otherwise identifies thus is either insane, weak-willed enough to obey the insane, or both." I do not think that you can so easily dismiss what I guess you could call the religious inclination. It is part of human psychology, if you want to be strictly materialistic about it. I think it is often suppressed, or is channeled into negative forms. I regularly get irritated at English-language Buddhism discussions because (e: English speaking, typically white) people seem to need to have a ritual structure around engaging with the dharma in order to get over their own hang-ups. Nessus fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 05:34
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That's a weird take on inductive reasoning, I guess. As someone who has significant experience with psychedelics I really don't consider it similar to religious experiences. That's just me though.
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Jan 27, 2021 05:36
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ProperGanderPusher posted:We're already a couple pages in, but here's my reintro. I've been around since the original liturgigoon megathread. I was raised atheist, spent a few years in Rome (in a radtrad bubble) in my early adult years, and finally became Orthodox about eleven years ago. I mostly lurk around these parts since like a few other posters I lean heavily traditional and conservative and I'm careful about when to reveal my power level. zonohedron posted:Sometimes I don't contribute to a conversation because I'm generally-speaking socially conservative, but not because I think the thread will tar and feather me, more because, generally speaking, I figure nobody wants to hear "well sure you all think this and do that, but the Church teaches such-and-such" unprompted. It's not noteworthy, funny, or helpful. I'm in the same spot, in that if someone really wants to know what "I" think about an issue, they can look it up in the Book of Common Prayer/St. Augustine or the Catechism of the Catholic Church/St. Thomas (for 99% of things, and see the BCP for the odd things that differ). Most folks here, at least going back to the first and following iterations of this thread, weren't particularly interested in that. I suppose it might be that in more recent iterations of the thread there is a wider audience. White Coke posted:I'd also like to hear more conservative peoples' opinions on matters of theology out of curiosities sake, but I know that for some people there are opinions that given even a chance to be heard are very hurtful and alienating so I don't know how free ranging such discussions could be. Because traditional teachings of the Church (or a particular tradition within it) are generally easily obtainable from official documents, it has been less important to really spell it out. There are also a lot of folks in this thread who disagree with Sts. Thomas and Augustine (and not just Eastern Orthodox!!) and particularly disagree on matters related to self-identity and can take it somewhat poorly when you articulate those things, so I just kinda stopped. Honestly what it comes down to, and I know I've said this in previous iterations of this thread, I get into theological debates within my diocesan structures and within the national church where the consequences are significant to the diocese/church, and I mostly read this thread to relax, not argue even more. If people were actually very curious about some element of Church teaching, I might be willing to talk about it, but I'd be far more interested in the minutiae of silly hats, when to put them on and when to take them off (liturgics), Anglican church history, English spirituality, and the ascetical tradition more broadly. Speaking of silly hats:  A few bishops, a few saints, and an American senator wearing what one can only assume are sarum style pontifical gauntlets.
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Jan 27, 2021 06:00
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PantlessBadger posted:I'm in the same spot, in that if someone really wants to know what "I" think about an issue, they can look it up in the Book of Common Prayer/St. Augustine or the Catechism of the Catholic Church/St. Thomas (for 99% of things, and see the BCP for the odd things that differ). Most folks here, at least going back to the first and following iterations of this thread, weren't particularly interested in that. I suppose it might be that in more recent iterations of the thread there is a wider audience.
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Jan 27, 2021 06:04
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White Coke posted:An argument I've see pop up is: religious experiences can be caused by drugs like LSD, or by medical conditions like schizophrenia, so therefore any and all religious phenomena are explicable by these means and therefore "untrue". Personally I’ve never had a spiritual experience. I am a Christian for the reason Justin the Martyr gave: "This is the only philosophy which I have found certain and adequate." When I was younger I was freakishly active. I was in multiple sports, Scouting, quiz bowl competitions, multiple martial arts and I did thousands of hours of community service. This was basically needed to keep me sane when I was younger. Anyway at some point I looked at the service I was doing in my community and wondered why am I doing this? I demanded that God tell me and give me a reason. I never got answer. Years later I’d even realize that the crisis itself was a consequence of having a weird brain. I’m not a Christian because of a spiritual experience. I am a Christian because I find the event of Jesus as the Christ, the only certain and adequate explanation and answer for my question of: “What does it mean to be?”
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Jan 27, 2021 06:30
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Nessus posted:While I absolutely understand and respect if you don't want to do this, what often interests me is hearing about how people understand and engage with their beliefs and positions rather than just wanting them live-searched and quoted. This doesn't mean "tell all the little ways you're heterodox" or anything, either. And when there's an opportunity to do that and I think it'll be interesting and funny, I'm (perhaps overzealously) delighted to do so. A couple threads ago I used the hypothetical, "Suppose someone comes in asking for suggestions for grape juice and rice wafers for a communion service. If they're not Catholic, I will happily invest some time looking at gourmet juice sites. If they are, I will happily encourage them never to suggest using invalid matter for a communion service ever again, and delightedly advise them to forget they ever had such an idea." A lot of the time folks are talking about their wonderful rice wafers at their wonderful $random_Protestant_denomination gathering and I am happy to see their happiness but don't really have anything to add. White Coke posted:An argument I've see pop up is: religious experiences can be caused by drugs like LSD, or by medical conditions like schizophrenia, so therefore any and all religious phenomena are explicable by these means and therefore "untrue". "People with epilepsy sometimes smell something burning prior to having a seizure, therefore every time anyone smells something burning, it's explicable by brain misfires." "But sometimes things catch fire and people smell it." "You can't prove they're not hallucinating the smell!"
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Jan 27, 2021 16:00
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White Coke posted:An argument I've see pop up is: religious experiences can be caused by drugs like LSD, or by medical conditions like schizophrenia, so therefore any and all religious phenomena are explicable by these means and therefore "untrue". In a sense, everything we experience (up to and including the idea of experience, and the idea that there's a 'we' to experience things, and ideas in general) is through the mechanism of electrochemical reactions in our nervous systems, because that's how human bodies work. Whether that makes experiences, ideas, or consciousness 'untrue' or not is certainly something that can be argued, but I have yet to see a compelling argument that such a distinction actually matters much.
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Jan 27, 2021 17:02
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It's me, I am the mushroom smoking bog mummy No, seriously, wide experience with 2CX, ketamine, LSD, shrooms and a great deal of other entheogens, and I got to say that the religious experience couldn't be forced that way. It can be a focus for religious practice, but I wouldn't say it's necessary, nor does it provide a lasting insight.
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Jan 27, 2021 17:51
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Nessus posted:I don't know the people in specific so I can't speculate as to motive. I think that if you are not religious, or associate religious experience with bad experiences, an explanation which dismisses the religious experience in this manner would be very appealing. It would dismiss the topic entirely, to the intensity that you prefer, whether it be "this is all founded in the artistic expression of people who we would now consider mentally ill" to "everyone who subscribes to a religious philosophy or otherwise identifies thus is either insane, weak-willed enough to obey the insane, or both." It's not the people saying it so much as that I keep seeing it pop up, so I was curious if anyone else had encountered it. And that it had a certain kind of appeal because it was an attempt at a comprehensive explanation, even if it isn't as comprehensive as it thinks. zonohedron posted:"People with epilepsy sometimes smell something burning prior to having a seizure, therefore every time anyone smells something burning, it's explicable by brain misfires." That was my biggest issue with that line of thinking, it's sort of a godless God-of-the-Gaps argument. docbeard posted:In a sense, everything we experience (up to and including the idea of experience, and the idea that there's a 'we' to experience things, and ideas in general) is through the mechanism of electrochemical reactions in our nervous systems, because that's how human bodies work. And that was another thing that occurred to me, how exactly are we supposed to experience religious phenomena, if experiencing it through our senses is "proof" that it isn't real?
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Jan 27, 2021 21:43
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m not a Christian because of a spiritual experience. I am a Christian because I find the event of Jesus as the Christ, the only certain and adequate explanation and answer for my question of: “What does it mean to be?” I know it’s not really the same, but sometimes, if the night is particularly dark, I believe almost solely because I want with all my heart to be with my father again.
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Jan 28, 2021 05:56
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I know it’s not really the same, but sometimes, if the night is particularly dark, I believe almost solely because I want with all my heart to be with my father again. One of the last things my aunt Ruth said to me before she died was "I get to see your mom" (my mother, her sister, having passed a year or two before) with an expression of sheer joy in the midst of the terrible pain she was in. I'm not saying it's exactly why I believe (I'm not sure there's a satisfying answer to that question tbh) but the chance to be reunited with some people, and reconciled with others, is certainly a thing I think about sometimes.
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Jan 28, 2021 10:46
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so i have a weirdly personal question. can something be a miracle if someone had to suffer/die for it to happen. so like 12 or so years ago, i was on dialysis for like 3 years because my one kidney had decided to eat poo poo and stop working. basicaly the whole experience was awful and hellish and one of my moms catholic friends gave us some Lourdes water because gently caress it. my mom does it to me and a couple weeks later, i get a kidney, a perfect matched one genetically or some poo poo. its been working for 13 or so years now and shows no signs of stopping and all my religious friends and relatives say its a miracle i feel like i should be happy and i am but someone died so i could have that kidney ai know they chose to give up their organs after death and it was there time and such. but it feels hosed up to call it a miracle and such. i will never know who that person was and i always feel bad thinking about how it could have been some mother or some father and that my "miracle" was the worst day in someone's life. i guess i still feel weirdly guilty about it.
Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 07:15
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i feel like i should be happy and i am but someone died so i could have that kidney ai know they chose to give up their organs after death and it was there time and such. but it feels hosed up to call it a miracle and such. i will never know who that person was and i always feel bad thinking about how it could have been some mother or some father and that my "miracle" was the worst day in someone's life. I imagine such feelings are common for people that receive donated organs. I don't think you have anything to feel bad about.
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Jan 30, 2021 07:21
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We DESPERATELY want to fit a narrative on events that happen. Miracles, God's will, blessing or curse, etc. This can order the world from a perspective, but completely falls apart in these circumstances. And we want to inflict our narratives on others. Did God kill someone to provide you a kidney? This is the silliness that crops up. The fact is we do not know WHY you received a kidney, only THAT it happened. I wouldn't personally call this a miracle. That word has a specific definition, which varies depending who you ask. Typically something that can't naturally happen or be explained by nature. In your case, we have systems for distribution. Someone planned ahead to benefit a stranger if the occasion transpired. It did, and although unlikely, it isn't naturally impossible to find a match. In my mind, it's more worthwhile to remember your donor, thank them, and honor their death how you feel you should. Also survivor's guilt is very real, like said previously.
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Jan 30, 2021 07:58
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