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Pete's response is most definitely motivated first and foremost by seeing Trudy take the lead on it - his wife making this kind of decision is antithetical to his whole "noble, stoic hunter returning home to a waiting dinner" fantasy - but there is also some fear of commitment at play there, not necessarily of adoption itself but of saying farewell to his youth. Pete very much likes being where he is, a relatively carefree guy with a lot of disposable income, a nice midtown Manhattan highrise apartment and a loving wife (who he occasionally steps out on.)The introduction of a child into that world, biological or not, is going to suddenly introduce stakes to his life and definitively close a chapter he's still enjoying.
JethroMcB fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 21:01
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This whole episode is about the different ways men react to the feeling of having their control challenged or threatened, especially by women, and how they attempt to regain that control. Pete has a temper tantrum like a child after Trudy moves forward their adoption plans, and reacts by terminating the Clearasil account run by his father in law. Roger sells his company in order to afford his divorce and remarriage, while Bert's sister invokes their mother to convince him to give up his life's work. After Joan reveals she's sexually experienced, Greg rapes her in a twisted attempt to assert dominance. Don's control was challenged by Betty, and he reacted by blowing up his life. But he, unlike the rest, has been given a chance to change. "Rebirth" is the term used. It remains to be seen what that means for his character, exactly. (And, as a foil to all of this, Peggy takes the reins on Popsicle and gets the office (to Paul's chagrin).) The Klowner fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 21:13
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And let’s be honest here, does anyone really think that Pete wants to be a father at all? He keeps finding reasons not to. And frankly he’s not really in a position culturally or maritally to freely say “I don’t want to have children” like someone in his shoes 40-60 years in the future. I have to wonder how the family dynamic would have changed if Pete was the only one to have kids and his father were still alive.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:29
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The poem I posted above is very worth a read, feels like there's a lot of relevant meaning in there.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:41
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Reading the poem made me think of the dude in the bar who just casually dismisses Don after a quick visual inspection makes him assume that Don is some all-business/no understanding of creativity guy. Some guy who probably hates "conformists" but still easily categorizes people based entirely on look alone. Which in turn reminds me of Paul, and how on paper a lot of what he does and says indicates a forward-thinking, more inclusive and open mindset but who invariably ends up mostly being all talk. I think it's kind of neat that for all his efforts to (look like he has) improve(d), he is the one guy in the office who is basically in the same place he was when the series started. Even Pete is at least getting bigger assignments/the notice of the likes of Duck, and while Ken hasn't been promoted he has produced and published writing that got the attention of one of the senior partners. Meanwhile the best that Paul has managed is to be creative's eyes and ears in California, a position he immediately got dumped out of when Don decided he wanted to go instead.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:20
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Wow I finally caught up with this thread again!!! Obviously the recaps are fantastic but the rest of the discussion is excellent too. This thread is exhausting to read, but in a good way, because there’s so much to chew on, and so many thoughtful posts. Excited for Jerusalem to finish this season (the finale is SO good) and get onto s3 where I will be watching along with the writeups!
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Jan 28, 2021 01:37
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sebmojo posted:The poem I posted above is very worth a read, feels like there's a lot of relevant meaning in there. Poem sucked. I'd rather contemplate my navel Edit: or some Blake or Poe or Frost. Gimme dat imagery, I need the pretty head pictures BrotherJayne fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 07:11
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BrotherJayne posted:Poem sucked. 
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Jan 28, 2021 07:23
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sebmojo posted:The poem I posted above is very worth a read, feels like there's a lot of relevant meaning in there. Yes a lot of resonance with the show and this season in particular, however it also sucked. Dirty beatniks so self absorbed they can only write about themselves, disgusting. If you told me paul kinsey wrote that I'd believe you.
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Jan 28, 2021 07:24
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Gaius Marius posted:Yes a lot of resonance with the show and this season in particular, however it also sucked. Dirty beatniks so self absorbed they can only write about themselves, disgusting. If you told me paul kinsey wrote that I'd believe you. Why you gotta come along and say it better? I feel like Kinsey when Peggy upstaged the hell out of him
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Jan 29, 2021 03:02
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Gaius Marius posted:Yes a lot of resonance with the show and this season in particular, however it also sucked. Dirty beatniks so self absorbed they can only write about themselves, disgusting. If you told me paul kinsey wrote that I'd believe you. In that way, Mad Men is very much a product of it's time. Self-made conventional compassionate conservative from America's heartland is a romantic soul who is cool on a level that those lefty loser city-slickers can never reach. He even helps out women and blacks based on their individual merits because it is all about the individual which he can see irrespective of identity whereas the left only sees the group they belong to though homosexuality remains inherently deviant. He can tolerate that deviance but also feels it ought be exploited. I had missed a lot of the Christian imagery when I watched it but that plays into it too. It's all very W's America.
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Jan 29, 2021 04:47
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Don Draper is a terrible human being.
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Jan 29, 2021 05:58
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Re: Pete and Adoption Everything Pete has is inherited but he despises (or begrudgingly tolerates) his biological family. He has no insight into this, of course, as he places huge prominence on demanding a biological heir.
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Jan 29, 2021 08:03
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sebmojo posted:Don Draper is a terrible human being. Counterpoint: Don is more human than you or I
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Jan 29, 2021 08:49
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Don Draper is a man who loves life. Don Draper is a man who will not sacrifice his love nor his values.
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Jan 29, 2021 08:53
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Capntastic posted:Re: Pete and Adoption ...does he? It almost seemed like he didn't actually want kids aside from having to do what was expected of him.
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Jan 29, 2021 09:35
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BrotherJayne posted:Counterpoint: Don is more human than you or I did i stutter
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Jan 29, 2021 09:42
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pentyne posted:...does he? I feel like he would be fine with kids if it happened automatically without intervention; and despises that others are seeing him unable to provide this. It might be the first time in his life he's front and center with any sort of difficult problem, and loathes the idea of the problem existing at all-- but refuses the idea of the solution not "coming" from him.
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Jan 29, 2021 09:52
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Pete is a complex character. He's the best character on the show. If children are a burdensome obligation (something he was undoubtedly told many times) why would you go out of your way to adopt? If having children will make your spouse (the only person who loves you in an unqualified manner), why wouldn't you give them what they want? Why does your spouse love you, when you are a grimy unlovable person (something you undoubtedly know to be true)? What is wrong with them? Why can't you provide your spouse what they need? Why can't you succeed? When you look in the mirror, you don't see what is wrong with you. You aren't the most handsome man but you basically look fine. So why does everyone treat you like some hideous goblin? And what the gently caress is wrong with the one person who doesn't? Why do they accept you? Are they having their father give you money to mock you? Is that what it is? Are you some kind of a joke, a doormat to them? gently caress them! You just want to be loved but you are clearly unlovable so why does this seemingly normal person love you? Are you just some loving clown? You are creative, your ideas are just as good as Don or Paul. OK, maybe not as good but they are still pretty solid ideas and at least worth considering. Why do people see greatness in them and just treat you like a joke? And then there is Rodger. He's got a lineage. But you've got a better lineage. Why do people respect him when he's at least as much of a fuckup as you are. Why doesn't anybody love me and what is wrong with the people who do love me? Set a timer and say that to yourself everyday at the top of the hour every hour. And a few times in between. Maybe ever 15 minutes or so when you are stressed or just are alone like when you take a poop or just close your eyes for a moment. Live in that skin for a while. Then Pete makes total and complete sense.
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Jan 29, 2021 10:07
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To me, Mad Men is about a group of men and women who work in advertising in the 1960s and run into various problems.
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Jan 29, 2021 10:44
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Seems like a TV show to me?
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Jan 29, 2021 10:47
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Escobarbarian posted:To me, Mad Men is about a group of men and women who work in advertising in the 1960s and run into various problems. Hey now. Some of them work in research. Regarding Pete, he's kind of the most important character in the show along with Peggy as their saga is one of change and growth. It's a story of two people who start at complete opposites in terms of family, wealth, and social privilege and learning to grow beyond that as they progress in their fields. In 2 seasons Pete has gone from the scummiest boy in the room to somewhat capable of understanding he isn't going to have success dropped in his life by virtue of birth. Peggy has lucked into a serious career beyond typical "women's work" by being great at it but also because Don wanted to shove it in Pete's face. Peggy taking the office was a huge deal for her both professionally and socially, enough to put Kinsey on edge, and Roger pretty much called it out saying she was confidant enough to ask while tons of her "peers" i.e men with several years experience and ivy league pedigrees were too afraid to even ask. It's a small sign that the metrics of success are changing and things aren't always going to be automatically given to the privileged as a matter of course. It started with Pete being denied the head of accounts job by Don in what was a power play and is slowly extending to other areas (really starting to see a pattern here). pentyne fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jan 29, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 11:47
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Escobarbarian posted:To me, Mad Men is about a group of men and women who work in advertising in the 1960s and run into various problems. Hmm... I don't see it.
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Jan 29, 2021 12:03
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Escobarbarian posted:To me, Mad Men is about a group of men and women who work in advertising in the 1960s and run into various problems. Clearly you've never seen the show. It's right there on the wikipedia page: quote:Mad Men (Japanese: マッドメン, Maddōmen) is a Japanese media franchise created by Akira Toriyama in 1984. The initial manga, written and illustrated by Toriyama, was serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump from 1984 to 1995, with the 519 individual chapters collected into 42 tankōbon volumes by its publisher Shueisha. Mad Men was initially inspired by the classical 16th century Chinese novel Journey to the West, as well as Hong Kong martial arts films. The series follows the adventures of the protagonist, Don Draper, from his childhood through adulthood as he trains in advertising. He spends his childhood far from civilization until he meets a teen girl named Betty, who encourages him to join her quest in exploring the world in search of the seven orbs known as the Mad Men, which summon a wish-granting dragon when gathered. Along his journey, Draper makes several other friends, becomes a family man, discovers his alien heritage, and battles a wide variety of villains, many of whom also seek the Mad Men.
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Jan 29, 2021 16:35
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The Klowner posted:Clearly you've never seen the show. It's right there on the wikipedia page: God I hope fanart exists of this
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Jan 29, 2021 16:52
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this thread is so highfalutin, even the shitposts are effortposts
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Jan 29, 2021 20:32
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VinylonUnderground posted:It's all very W's America. I see where you’re coming from, but I definitely had an opposite read. I viewed Don’s public persona, the rugged alpha male he tries to be, as a trap that’s ultimately his primary obstacle. Don is celebrated by his peers for being some cool cowboy alpha, but the arc of the show reveals layer-by-layer how hollow that is. I viewed it as more of a condemnation of the stoic masculine ideal you’re describing. It’s the main reason he feels alone and unhappy.
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Jan 31, 2021 00:44
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The show goes to great lengths to show how hollow Don is but it's the whole "you can't make an anti-war" movie. Showing that man be professionally recognized, becoming incredibly wealthy, banging hot women and owning the libs because he's unbelievably awesome is. . . not the rebuke of the conservative culture of the aughts Mad Men's creators think it is. Sure, Don is hollow on the inside or whatever but if you think about the hierarchy of needs, Don can afford to be self-indulgent about his hollowness. And it's not like there are counterweights to Don's emptiness. Sure Don's broken but so are Peter, Rodger, Cooper, Peggy, Betty, etc. Confessions of a Mask this ain't because Don's hollowness is a shared phenomenon because of the "man in a grey suit" era as opposed to something really special about Don.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:16
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Is it trying to be a rebuke of the conservative culture of the aughts? How?
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Jan 31, 2021 01:21
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sebmojo posted:Is it trying to be a rebuke of the conservative culture of the aughts? How? Like Science Fiction, period pieces reflect the time they are made in more than the time they represent. The self-made wealthy Conservative Everyman owning snobbish liberal elitists absolutely speaks to popular conscious of 2007 and 2008. Talking about Don's emptiness as a counter to that is absolutely what they wanted to convey if you listen to their interviews but given how the character of Don Draper was and is received, uhhh, they didn't do a great job communicating that.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:38
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i mean i guess, I just don't see that wealthy everymen owning liberal elites is a big or even particularly noticeable part of MM - there's a couple of scenes with hippies/beatniks, but i didn't feel like don owned them, it was more just a culture clash? if you have an interview link handy it might help me understand what you're getting at.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:49
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VinylonUnderground posted:Like Science Fiction, period pieces reflect the time they are made in more than the time they represent. The self-made wealthy Conservative Everyman owning snobbish liberal elitists absolutely speaks to popular conscious of 2007 and 2008. Talking about Don's emptiness as a counter to that is absolutely what they wanted to convey if you listen to their interviews but given how the character of Don Draper was and is received, uhhh, they didn't do a great job communicating that. yeah because 2007 was the only time in history there was a culture perception of self made men owning a bunch of ivory tower intellectuals.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:54
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pentyne posted:yeah because 2007 was the only time in history there was a culture perception of self made men owning a bunch of ivory tower intellectuals. But having a conservative (anti)hero in 2007 is absolutely making a statement.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:56
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Don is obviously very unhappy, and people who don't watch dramas closely don't watch Mad Men for long, because they think nothing happens.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:04
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VinylonUnderground posted:But having a conservative (anti)hero in 2007 is absolutely making a statement. you're like the equivalent of the Harry Potter fan who says every bad guy is just like Voldemort
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Jan 31, 2021 02:12
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sebmojo posted:i mean i guess, I just don't see that wealthy everymen owning liberal elites is a big or even particularly noticeable part of MM - there's a couple of scenes with hippies/beatniks, but i didn't feel like don owned them, it was more just a culture clash? It's hard to find old interviews but it shouldn't be surprising that Weiner was very public about how he felt people weren't "getting" what he was trying to say with Don Draper and how he is a tragic character as opposed to captain awesome. But Weiner glamorizes his subject to the point that it's hard not to walk away with sympathy towards the captain awesome interpretation. Weiner clearly likes womanizing very much. He also likes wealth very much. Mad Men is opposed to the conservative values Don represents in the same way Paths of Glory is antiwar.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:19
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Yoshi Wins posted:Don is obviously very unhappy, and people who don't watch dramas closely don't watch Mad Men for long, because they think nothing happens. Don can afford to be unhappy in the self-indulgent way he is. Mad Men was a major cultural phenomenon. Up until 2012, it was easier to strike up a conversation with a stranger by talking about Mad Men than Breaking bad. VinylonUnderground fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 02:21
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pentyne posted:you're like the equivalent of the Harry Potter fan who says every bad guy is just like Voldemort It's literally the reverse.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:22
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VinylonUnderground posted:It's hard to find old interviews but it shouldn't be surprising that Weiner was very public about how he felt people weren't "getting" what he was trying to say with Don Draper and how he is a tragic character as opposed to captain awesome. But Weiner glamorizes his subject to the point that it's hard not to walk away with sympathy towards the captain awesome interpretation. Weiner clearly likes womanizing very much. He also likes wealth very much. Mad Men is opposed to the conservative values Don represents in the same way Paths of Glory is antiwar. This seems like it's the interview you are thinking of. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 02:27
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You might want to spoiler an interview that talks about things several seasons in advance of this thread.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:42
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