|
okay, so starfleet has these training simulators with fake starship consoles and fake viewscreens and stuff and they use them to run training scenarios. presumably there's a lot of different scenarios that teach cadets different things the kobayashi maru scenario is infamous because it's a no-win scenario: a freighter has a hit a mine in the klingon neutral zone, and the captain must decide whether or not to rescue the crew. if they try, they'll face an unbeatable number of hostile klingon vessels except, why would any cadet think that this is a particularly unusual exercise? if you only ran through the scenario once (and it's mentioned that kirk is unusual for having tried the kobayashi maru multiple times, so presumably most cadets only do it once), you'd think of the scenario as one where you either retreated without the crew or blew up your ship. wouldn't this happen all the time in training scenarios? is the expectation that you'll get a flawless S-rank on every simulation on your first try, and the kobayashi maru is the sole exception? i'd expect that you'd be getting your ship blown up all the time in training scenarios, and afterwards you wouldn't think that the scenario was "no-win," you'd just review your mistakes or whatever. furthermore, kirk's whole thing about "i don't believe in no-win scenarios" in wrath of khan is dumb because the kobayashi maru scenario seems to be basically programmed like an arcade game: an endless stream of enemies just spawns in front of you. it's framed as kirk being an anti-authority rebel, proclaiming defiant optimism in the face of a staid starfleet command, but really it's more like somebody yelling at nintendo because they didn't include a way to beat dr. mario
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 09:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 04:37 |
|
|
One time when I was very young I enabled the infinite health cheat and set out to complete the campaign of Dark Forces 2. The first level of dark forces 2 requires you to be brought to zero health in a futile attempt to gunfight with a sith apprentice and so if you have infinite health you can never progress in your military career and the developers all laugh at you. You end up impotently throwing grenade after grenade at this rear end in a top hat with a lightsaber's feet hoping that the developers set this challenge to complete after a certain amount of health has been depleted from the sith apprentice just in case you win. It wasn't. Kirk cheating the Kobayashi Maru worked similarly in my mind.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 09:42
|
|
|
The test exists to be challenged. There is no victory conditions but you get credit for creating edge cases they were un prepapred for. Kirk, iirc, got in trouble for cheating in both timelines so the point narratively is he doesn't want to admit that loss is possible that he will do whatever it takes to avoid that outcome, even if ostensibly he breaks the rules. Its also mentioned they update the sim and Riker's chosen path only makes sense if you assume they updated the sim to account for attempts at doing what the two Kirks did.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 13:02
|
|
|
It's special because all the other scenarios involve an abomination spawning from the transporter, or the ship being held captive by the holodeck.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 13:08
|
|
|
I thought it just had a reputation among students as the simulation no one had ever gotten a positive ending for. Also in the new movies they klingon aren't endless there's just a lot of them
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
Presumably, the point of mission simulation for Cadets who are aspiring to reach the lowest officer rank at the end of their education is to test their knowledge of Starfleet's doctrines, procedures and the ability to apply them to real-world scenarios they might face in the field, so as to prove that they are ready to face those situations. If you are presented with the scenario of, say, a freighter attempting to smuggle contraband or a malfunctioning bit of Space Infrastructure, there are clear right and wrong answers, things that the Rulebook specifically demands that you do and things that it demands you don't do. You have to follow those guidelines and also show your ability to adapt if things don't go the way they did in the textbook. The Kobiyashi Maru is a No-Win Scenario because it puts you in a position where there is no right answer based on Starfleet's rules. If you leave those space truckers to die because of a treaty or if you get your crew killed trying to save them because you violated the treaty, in both cases you're doing something Starfleet Rules say is wrong. That's why its described as a "Test of character," by Kirk when Saavak objects to it. Its testing how you handle a situation where there isn't a correct choice, because that's something an officer may have to deal with once they get out into space.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
Badactura posted:I thought it just had a reputation among students as the simulation no one had ever gotten a positive ending for. Also in the new movies they klingon aren't endless there's just a lot of them Yeah as presented across the shows and books, they aren't limitless. Its enough ships to feel realistic while just enough to be a nearly assured loss so if you want to go out guns blazing you can but you won't win. In one of the really lovely books a character completes the exam by using the Kyobashi Maru as a suicide bomb to heavily disable 2 of the 3 enemy vessels and manages to win the fight, although admittedly by triggering a war and killing everyone on the Kyobashi Maru.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 17:36
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Presumably, the point of mission simulation for Cadets who are aspiring to reach the lowest officer rank at the end of their education is to test their knowledge of Starfleet's doctrines, procedures and the ability to apply them to real-world scenarios they might face in the field, so as to prove that they are ready to face those situations. But so every other scenario has a clear way to 100% perfectly complete it, and the cadets are expected to do so on their first try? I feel like the whole point of training scenarios is to present these sorts of ambiguous problems. In other words, every scenario should be like the Kobayashi maru! It's also unclear if there's any kind of grades or ratings that the cadets are getting. Every example of a Kobayashi Maru solution that we see doesn't seem to have affected the cadet's career at all. What are you learning if the only feedback you ever get is "okay cool?"
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 21:20
|
|
|
Star Trek II was the last of the original crew movies that I watched, and the opening Kobayashi Maru sequence was the most surreal movie-viewing experience I ever had. I honest to god thought I must have been dreaming or something, because it felt like it was making these connections based on what I already knew and had seen about Star Trek in these sort of dream-logic ways. "This uses the same music from Star Trek III? That can't be right, only the music from Star Trek I ever got re-used. That Vulcan lady played by Kirstie Alley is Saavik? They never recast in Star Trek, and why is she commanding the Enterprise? There are klingons in Star Trek II? What does this have to do with Khan again? Um, those Klingon ships on the view screen are CLEARLY the same shot from Star Trek I. Where's Kirk, anyway? This sure seems like a dramatic battle for the beginning of the movie, they're already abandoning ship. And now the viewscreen is sliding open and there's Kirk, I believe I have been grossly misinformed about this movie....." It wasn't until they made clear that it was a simulation that I finally accepted that I wasn't hallucinating.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
Aglet56 posted:It's also unclear if there's any kind of grades or ratings that the cadets are getting. Every example of a Kobayashi Maru solution that we see doesn't seem to have affected the cadet's career at all. What are you learning if the only feedback you ever get is "okay cool?" I don't get the impression there's any way to fail the Kobayashi Mark test unless you just totally crack under pressure or quit in the middle of it or something. It's there to ensure every cadet faces abject failure at least once during training.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2021 22:10
|
|
|
Presumably you do the test again from staff roles, and that would be graded. Its a good test too since you've got a captain trying to come up with whatever horseshit might work so you need to know in your role every obscure weird thing your function can do and suggest as needed to the person roleplaying the captain. Its basically a very in depth war game simulation like most militaries do except it has a guaranteed "you will lose something" built in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 02:37
|
|
|
starfleet is basically the best of the best among people who decided they really wanted to try hard in a society where nobody needs to try hard so its probably not unthinkable that a lot of them generally just ace every test, assignment and simulation to the point where maybe failing one is notable
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
Wait a sec, is Saavik the op? Saavik is that you?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 04:17
|
|
|
I prefer Mariner’s simulation in lower decks. At least she has fun with it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 04:18
|
|
|
Isn’t it just a trolley problem? Also there seem to be a pretty clear if slightly edgelordy answer: let the freighter blow up. If it blows up, you lose some miners. If you attempt rescue you start a war.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 09:21
|
|
|
Torquemada posted:Isn’t it just a trolley problem? Also there seem to be a pretty clear if slightly edgelordy answer: let the freighter blow up. If it blows up, you lose some miners. If you attempt rescue you start a war. As described in material I think the implication is since it is a simulation and not an actual war, lots of cadets go head to head with it to stretch their thinking and prove themselves. Like if you are told "there is no wrong answer, we merely measure you aptitude" you probably would want to show your stuff and try to impress the people reviewing your simulation run. Hell if you come up with something really clever it can get named after you or bonus commendations. Further, even if you plan to just fly past and follow regs I assume you'll be graded a) on how you did it and b) given pressure by the simulator to make you doubt your choices.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 15:41
|
|
|
The longer you wait you learn that the Kobayashi Maru has dozens of children on board and you hear their screams over the the speakers and members of your crew will threaten to mutiny if you don't try to rescue them. i just made that up but like Spock is fond of saying there are always (*Shatner pause*) possibilities.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 18:10
|
|
|
the whole thing is basically a rorshach test and it doesn't have good vidya game balance b/c it wasn't written by pro gamers that said i always thought the intent of the scene was to establish that kirk's a sore loser (and possibly not somebody you really want in command?)
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Sore loser, probably. But the movie's case is definitely that command is where Kirk belongs. The Kobayashi Maru in the movie is more of a personal thing about how Kirk has avoided facing mortality and can't fully appreciate life as a result.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
Torquemada posted:Isn't it just a trolley problem? Also there seem to be a pretty clear if slightly edgelordy answer: let the freighter blow up. If it blows up, you lose some miners. If you attempt rescue you start a war. SidneyIsTheKiller posted:The longer you wait you learn that the Kobayashi Maru has dozens of children on board and you hear their screams over the the speakers and members of your crew will threaten to mutiny if you don't try to rescue them. i just made that up but like Spock is fond of saying there are always (*Shatner pause*) possibilities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdTfyKkaQ_Y This video gives a decent gist of what it entails as well as what various characters do to try and beat it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2021 20:22
|
|
|
My winning strategy would be to kill the ship myself and defect to the Klingons
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
Hilarious how every time the KM test seems to be depicted in shows or books its to show how fuckin rad some character is by showing them beating the test in some way (except for saavik lol and apparently sulu who just said I'm not gonna push my luck)
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
SidneyIsTheKiller posted:The longer you wait you learn that the Kobayashi Maru has dozens of children on board and you hear their screams over the the speakers and members of your crew will threaten to mutiny if you don't try to rescue them. i just made that up but like Spock is fond of saying there are always (*Shatner pause*) possibilities. IIRC not sure if they pipe in the cries from the abandoned orphan toddlers but apparently some of the crew do mutiny in the exercise if you decide to fly on by, or so I read somewhere
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
A real-world example might be interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6fSUaZlsWw The Space Shuttle astronauts trained repeatedly for a variety of possible scenarios. The Shuttle design unfortunately was such that certain failures at certain points were irrecoverable and would at minimum lead to loss of vehicle (if not the astronauts as well). One such scenario would be too many main engines failing too early. The video above shows one such scenario: the Shuttle is ultimately doomed by the consecutive failure of all three main engines and cannot get to a runway. It ends with the crew hopefully managing to bail out while the orbiter is still in the air. (Ditching the Shuttle was extremely unlikely to work; the stall speed is just too high and there's no way you're surviving a 200mph ditch into the water.) So in this example, the simulation supervisor (Sim Sup) is likely watching and evaluating the crew's responses to make sure they're going through their checklists and doing everything they can to save the ship, and later themselves. There's nothing they could do to 'win' the scenario.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:If you leave those space truckers to die because of a treaty or if you get your crew killed trying to save them because you violated the treaty, in both cases you're doing something Starfleet Rules say is wrong. this seems like a problem with Starfleet's rules? imo the real problem with the Kobayashi Maru is that the computers and poo poo all catch on fire and the crew has to play act being hurt or dead or whatever. like what is that, what does that bring to the training. why is Mr Logical Spock pretending to be dead.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
Seems like a real lovely treaty if you can’t notify the other signatory that “hey, we need to enter the neutral zone for a rescue, don’t blow us up”
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 00:54
|
|
|
Sir DonkeyPunch posted:Seems like a real lovely treaty if you can’t notify the other signatory that “hey, we need to enter the neutral zone for a rescue, don’t blow us up” I'm guessing someone tried to do that in one of their runs and it crashed the simulation, like how one of the apocryphal tellings of how Nog beat the Maru test was he that he thought like a Ferengi and just bribed the Klingons into going away and the program crashed because lol federation post-money economics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 01:24
|
|
|
Sir DonkeyPunch posted:Seems like a real lovely treaty if you can’t notify the other signatory that “hey, we need to enter the neutral zone for a rescue, don’t blow us up” fam how do you think they're gonna do exciting episodes about going into the neutral zone with this kind of lax attitude towards crossing lines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 02:17
|
|
|
why can't you go into the neutral zone anyway, the name implies there aren't any rules for either side about going there
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 02:44
|
|
|
The only side that gets to blow up a bunch of innocent colonies in enemy space and then retreat into the neutral zone are the Romulans.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 02:53
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:A real-world example might be interesting: There's a story that French train drivers are trained similarly. During a test in which an alarm will sound if they don't do as instructed, sometimes they just fire the alarm, to see how the trainee reacts when something unexpected and not in the rules happens.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 04:38
|
|
|
indigi posted:why can't you go into the neutral zone anyway, the name implies there aren't any rules for either side about going there Warships are generally frowned upon in neutral territory.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 05:38
|
|
|
then it’s not neutral it’s “demilitarized”
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 07:06
|
|
|
Aglet56 posted:except, why would any cadet think that this is a particularly unusual exercise? if you only ran through the scenario once (and it's mentioned that kirk is unusual for having tried the kobayashi maru multiple times, so presumably most cadets only do it once), you'd think of the scenario as one where you either retreated without the crew or blew up your ship. wouldn't this happen all the time in training scenarios? is the expectation that you'll get a flawless S-rank on every simulation on your first try, and the kobayashi maru is the sole exception? i'd expect that you'd be getting your ship blown up all the time in training scenarios, and afterwards you wouldn't think that the scenario was "no-win," you'd just review your mistakes or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 08:35
|
|
|
indigi posted:then it’s not neutral it’s “demilitarized” Based on the context of various Star Treks the rules of the Neutral Zones seem to be that 1) they're not part of any nation's polity and neither power exerts any political authority or can establish any permanent settlements or outposts there 2) the Klingons can go into their Neutral zone, the Romulans can't go into their neutral zone (but do so under Cloak anyway), and the Federation doesn't get to go into either neutral zone. Asymmetrical treaty obligations are a staple of how the Federation conducts diplomacy. Their society and thus their government places a premium on peaceful relations above and beyond most other potentially competing interests when it comes to other nation-states, so they're often more than willing to give up a lot on paper to get there, especially after the TOS era Klingon Cold War was settled.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 08:49
|
|
|
even though they treat it as "oh no going into the Zone is an ~act of waaaar~" the feds do get away with violating it too without actually kicking off a war. fuckin' picard charged in because his buddy found a secret ancient alien site and decided the romulans simply couldn't be allowed to have it.
Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jan 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 09:10
|
|
|
Aglet56 posted:except, why would any cadet think that this is a particularly unusual exercise? if you only ran through the scenario once (and it's mentioned that kirk is unusual for having tried the kobayashi maru multiple times, so presumably most cadets only do it once), you'd think of the scenario as one where you either retreated without the crew or blew up your ship. wouldn't this happen all the time in training scenarios? is the expectation that you'll get a flawless S-rank on every simulation on your first try, and the kobayashi maru is the sole exception? i'd expect that you'd be getting your ship blown up all the time in training scenarios, and afterwards you wouldn't think that the scenario was "no-win," you'd just review your mistakes or whatever. also i think part of the idea is that the kobayashi maru is blatantly unfair. the klingons just instantly get the drop on you out of nowhere without warning. they crash in with three heavy cruisers. they don't answer hails. the fuckin' doofus helmsman can't get you to warp fast enough. the first shot punches right through your shields and immediately fucks you up. your phasers get broken immediately. it's not like "oh, poo poo, i should have raised shields sooner" or "i didn't tell the science officer to alternate the phase variance on the dyno scanners" or "i forgot that tractor beams don't work against melconian bulk carriers because they use caninium in their hulls", it's just "gently caress you, none of your choices affected the outcome, gg"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 09:20
|
|
|
I would see if I could trick the program into reverting to the core conceit of the original holodeck programming, and offer to have a steamy holodeck orgy between the crew of our vessels
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
most of the canon "innovative solutions" are just hacking the computer, which boomers consider bold innovation in a real starfleet academy, kirk would be known for beating the speedrun record by finding a glitch which allowed him to beam the kobayashi marus crew to safety without entering the neutral zone e: by far the best version in the existing fiction is the one vs romulans where someone uses obscure romulan law to challenge the enemy commander to personal combat Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 04:37 |
|
|
The best is Nog bribing them to go
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2021 00:06
|
|