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Real hurthling! posted:Rumor mill seems to be that konami licensed those ip to sony cause of both companies' close relation to remake dev bluepoint games. I am 1000% ok with MGS becoming an in-house Sony franchise as long as they don't unceremoniously kill it off like they did
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Jan 31, 2021 15:22
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Whoever ends up with those IPs needs to hire Kojima Productions to make Silent Hills and MGS6.
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Jan 31, 2021 16:56
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SUNKOS posted:Does Konami still make Pro Evo Soccer games? I haven't kept up since everything that happened with Kojima but I know there were a lot of people who preferred those games to EA's FIFA series. It's been a long time now but I remember really liking PES but that was... PS1 & PS2 era, I think? I hope it's still going because I know how crazy EA has gone with microtransactions in FIFA and they need some competition for their sports titles. PES (or Winning Eleven depending on region) is the only console game Konami still makes (they killed everything else other than stuff for pachinko machines, but PES printed way too much money to abandon). Even that was asking too much for next gen, though, as others have mentioned PES 2021 is a "legacy update" title (to give them a proper 2 years to work on a next gen version without too much interruption from having to do a whole new game for 2021) where it's just roster updates from PES 2020, although mercifully it's a half-price game so it's a really good deal if you're not chomping at the bit for next gen or need certain team licenses. It's called "eFootball Pro Evolution Soccer" now so if you're browsing an alphabetical list you actually do have to grab it from "E". There should be a proper PS5 and Xbox Series PES game for the 2022 release.
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Jan 31, 2021 17:05
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Kevyn posted:Whoever ends up with those IPs needs to hire Kojima Productions to make Silent Hills and MGS6. Nah, just let the man do what he wants. He was tired of MGS after 2, but they kept dragging him back. If anything force him to modernize snatcher, just for a decent cyberpunk game, like a slower astral chain.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:13
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Every MGS was Kojima's last MGS right up until it was no longer Kojima's last MGS.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:16
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Toaster Beef posted:Every MGS was Kojima's last MGS right up until it was no longer Kojima's last MGS. Yeah i was gonna say, he got pulled into doing 2 when it did so well. But then he tried to make a definitive ending and they made the man do a prequel. I know people love revengeance but I still mourn for the OG. It was gonna be doing a lot more than what we got, though what we got was because they hosed up so bad in the first place.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:17
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Are any of the EA sports titles on game pass worth playing, or are they all poo poo?
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Jan 31, 2021 19:38
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NHL ‘94 Rewind.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:40
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Happy Hedonist posted:Are any of the EA sports titles on game pass worth playing, or are they all poo poo? Play the last fight night
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Jan 31, 2021 20:10
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bushisms.txt posted:I know people love revengeance but I still mourn for the OG. It was gonna be doing a lot more than what we got, though what we got was because they hosed up so bad in the first place. The original gameplay demo for that was great with Raiden running around slicing things up (I remember the pillars on the building and slicing up a watermelon at the end?) but it looked really janky and the exact opposite of how you would want a game where you control that character to play. I don't think there is any situation where they could have made a good game out of it and I think Kojima knew this which is why he eventually handed the project over to the masters, because if anyone can make a game where it feels awesome to control and play as Raiden it's PG. On the topic of Konami IPs in general however, out of the three mentioned I'd let the Metal Gear series rest. There's still so many possibilities with Castlevania and Silent Hill but MGS? I get the impression that MGSV was kinda grasping in the sense of "We're making another one? What do we do this time?" whereby obviously the gameplay is no problem and they could finally expand on it properly but story-wise I don't see what else they could do now. Kojima's finally making new things as well and without him why even bother? Then again if the Sony thing's true I could see them handing the IP to Naughty Dog which might work? bushisms.txt posted:Play the last fight night I miss those games. Never played the fourth one but Fight Night 3 blew my mind when it came out, was a real showcase at the time and looking as good as it did during the launch era of the 360/PS3 gen? Can't even begin to imagine what those technical wizards could accomplish on XSX/PS5. They'd probably hit photo realism.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:25
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There's more to be done with the Metal Gear franchise... as long as you don't include Snake in it.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:33
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I had no idea nhl rewind was a thing, I’m all over that. And I freaking love fight night and haven’t played it since the 360, so hell yea, will do. Thanks y’all.
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Jan 31, 2021 21:19
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They’ve had four chances and an entire console cycle to improve upon UFC Undisputed 3 and still haven’t.
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Feb 1, 2021 03:08
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Bring back Ready 2 Rumble.
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Feb 1, 2021 04:12
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SUNKOS posted:Then again if the Sony thing's true I could see them handing the IP to Naughty Dog which might work? Nope nope nope. Kojima understands what a video game is and uses his cinephilia to enhance his works, naughty dog are trying to make movies. Naughty dog still hasn't even gotten to MGS3 in terms of mastery yet and fall apart with ludonarrative dissonance. Meanwhile, the entire mgs franchise is about a soldier being a tool, notice how "snake" never actually called the shots. Naughty dog needs to be handed the dragons lair ip. Fortunately the rumor is just an mgs remake, which should be fine. American McGay posted:Bring back Ready 2 Rumble. 
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Feb 1, 2021 09:26
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If the Bluepoint doing an MGS remake rumors are true it'll certainly be interesting. For as visually impressive as the Demon's Souls remake is, it's pretty flat and soulless (no pun) in presentation. I'm not too enthused about how they'd handle a crazy cinematic story like MGS. I know they did the HD collection, but that was much more of a 1:1 conversion. I don't even want to think about what they'd do for the voice acting.
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Feb 1, 2021 09:35
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American McGay posted:If the Bluepoint doing an MGS remake rumors are true it'll certainly be interesting. For as visually impressive as the Demon's Souls remake is, it's pretty flat and soulless (no pun) in presentation. I'm not too enthused about how they'd handle a crazy cinematic story like MGS. I know they did the HD collection, but that was much more of a 1:1 conversion. It's interesting because we could have another twin snakes on our hands but actually bad this time.
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Feb 1, 2021 09:42
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havnt played a nd game since tlou1 and probably wont ever but ludonarrative dissonance is a term that needs to disappear forever at this point. if youre not making pathologic and actually care about making a playable fun game and also want to tell a story that is at least a notch above borderlands writing you will create "ludonarrative dissonance" and its actually fine. its completely fine for a games themes and story to not take into account stuff thats in there to make a game enjoyable to play, because the other option is a lot of stuff everyone would complain about even more, and as much as i would love every game to give as little care to the concepts of "players enjoying the game" and "not being actively hostile to the player" as kenshi, no one else would.
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Feb 1, 2021 09:44
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Not liking a term doesn't take away how it affects games. Just because gta 4 made it a big deal doesn't mean devs haven't been actively dealing with it. Just look at how botw handles it, you can gently caress around because you already lost so take all the time you need to build yourself up, while unlocking ways to make the enemy less powerful. Like i mentioned before, mgs is a game that embraces that term. You are given tools to be the character the game wants you to be ( tranqs) or you are punished for not in multiple ways, with the sorrow fight being the pinnacle. Hell even ubisoft understood this with early splimter cell games having hard fail states.
bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 09:59
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Ludonarrative literally means "game story," the operative word in this phrase is "dissonance." If the gameplay does not clash with the narrative being told but in fact supports it, then there is no dissonance to be found.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:01
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yeah and look how death stranding handles it where you can make sam, a man who was ground zero at at least two voidouts, go around popping people in the head with lethal rounds for no good reason. even if the game makes you take bodies to a station or incinerator there is literally no reason for sam the character to ever, ever do this, especially when he has extremely effective non-lethal weaponry. this is ludonarrative dissonance and therefore game bad or whatever. its a useless term, its used instead of providing an actual detailed critique of what a game does, and it is not an automatic failing for a game to do it either. at this point if you cannot understand why its something that is necessitated by the medium for most games the issue is with you, not every game needs to or even should be ensuring a perfect reaction and coherency with what the player chooses to do if that is not the explicit aim of the work. there are certainly games where it could be argued that the developers should in fact be attempting to do this, but you need to actually put forward why that is in a coherent and reasoned manner for that specific example, rather than throwing out a catch all buzz word. it flattens critique and causes people to stop trying to articulate an actual position. beyond that, even if it were some rule of game writing, the use of it as an absolute wrong is itself incoherent when discussing games as a legitimate artform, as a major part of other artforms involves the creative use of things that are technically incorrect by the basic rules of the medium. if you do not think a game is doing it for that purpose, and that the way it does it is incongruous with the aims of the work then you need to explain how and why otherwise you are saying absolutely nothing at all.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:26
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I would honestly like to read that stux, but for the love of Kojima put a couple paragraph breaks in there.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:34
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Stux posted:yeah and look how death stranding handles it where you can make sam, a man who was ground zero at at least two voidouts, go around popping people in the head with lethal rounds for no good reason. even if the game makes you take bodies to a station or incinerator there is literally no reason for sam the character to ever, ever do this, especially when he has extremely effective non-lethal weaponry. this is ludonarrative dissonance and therefore game bad or whatever. its a useless term, its used instead of providing an actual detailed critique of what a game does, and it is not an automatic failing for a game to do it either. at this point if you cannot understand why its something that is necessitated by the medium for most games the issue is with you, not every game needs to or even should be ensuring a perfect reaction and coherency with what the player chooses to do if that is not the explicit aim of the work. there are certainly games where it could be argued that the developers should in fact be attempting to do this, but you need to actually put forward why that is in a coherent and reasoned manner for that specific example, rather than throwing out a catch all buzz word. it flattens critique and causes people to stop trying to articulate an actual position. beyond that, even if it were some rule of game writing, the use of it as an absolute wrong is itself incoherent when discussing games as a legitimate artform, as a major part of other artforms involves the creative use of things that are technically incorrect by the basic rules of the medium. if you do not think a game is doing it for that purpose, and that the way it does it is incongruous with the aims of the work then you need to explain how and why otherwise you are saying absolutely nothing at all. post/av combo for the ages, christ
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Feb 1, 2021 10:38
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I have started The Medium for some Dual Reality Gameplay (tm) and it's not bad at all. It's more of a slow point and click type puzzle game. The 'gimmick' of using one reality to solve a puzzle in the other one is cool. Also, the game looks great and performance is good. I got it free on game pass, I would most likely not have looked at it if it wasn't.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:50
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A game should not force the user into killing actions that it then makes the user feel like poo poo about unless that incongruity is being used to make a point (see: Spec Ops: The Line). If your protagonist agonizes over the act of killing in a cutscene, I should not be mowing down nameless fools with nary a care in the world minutes later. That's lazy storytelling. I'd rather no storytelling, at that point. Player actions shouldn't be these narratively disconnected sequences that ferry you from cutscene to cutscene, they should be woven into the story and characters themselves. Especially if you're Naughty Dog and you really just want to be making a loving movie.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:51
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The aesthetics of violence (inarguably super cool if you've ever enjoyed a video game) and actual human suffering are two different things, and it's not very clever to gleefully indulge in one then accuse you of tacitly supporting the other. It's in fact quite literally sophomoric, if my history of grading undergraduate writing is any indicator.
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Feb 1, 2021 10:55
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except tlou2 isnt ludonarrativly dissonant. it may be stupid and sophomoric and lazy, but it isnt dissonant. the nd game that actually is is uncharted, which is a fun light hearted game that would completely suck if the game cared about analyzing or tying all the gunplay you engage in to mow people down to the actual narrative, and was also one of the main games originally pointed to as falling into this exact writing "trap". and the game which isnt dissonant at all, almost seemingly as an answer to the criticisms levelled at uncharted, is tlou2 which actually tries to make the characters bloodthirsty and murderous and in line with how the player is forced to act, and everyone hates it because it creates something disgustingly mean spirited and cruel. its almost like throwing around these stupid terms instead of discussing things and explaining what you mean creates situations just like this, and its also like these two games provide a very clear example of why striving to create a harmony between the narrative as told and the players actions outside of it, just for the sake of not being dissonant, can very often be antithetical to making good, fun games that arent also horrific and off putting.
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Feb 1, 2021 11:20
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Stux posted:except tlou2 isnt ludonarrativly dissonant. it may be stupid and sophomoric and lazy, but it isnt dissonant. You wrote all that about death stranding but had no issue with the main motivation of tlou2 and her insistence "for no reason," or how it ends? But to put it plainly, you don't seem to know what the term means, so I'll just drop it.
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Feb 1, 2021 11:32
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two paragraphs that time, you're making progress!
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Feb 1, 2021 11:33
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bushisms.txt posted:You wrote all that about death stranding but had no issue with the main motivation of tlou2 and her insistence despite it "not making sense." But to put it plainly, you don't seem to know what the term means, so I'll just drop it. no i know what the term means. tlou2 chastising the player while making them engage in more violence is not ludonarrative dissonance. it also chastises the characters when they are not in the players control. this is something other mediums can also do, there are certainly plenty of films which chasitise the audience for continuing to watch gratuitous violence that is filmed in a way that attempts to keep them engaged and titlated and wanting to watch more. what differentiates games is play, and thats why the term is "ludonarrative". i feel like i shouldnt have to quote the wiki at you over a term you yourself were using quote:[...]the conflict between a video game's narrative told through the story and the narrative told through the gameplay. there is absolutely 0 dissonance between the narrative told through story and the narrative told through gameplay in tlou2. it is extremely consistent in absolute violence. the characters do not stop being violent when the player loses control, ellie is near absolute in her bloodlust, she is truly the perfect embodiment of a main character in a violent game as controlled by a player. i am not the only person to notice this at all https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/26/21304642/the-last-of-us-2-violence quote:Thirteen years ago, critics and designers imagined games would no longer have ludonarrative dissonance, that the stories video games want to tell would align with the actions they demand we commit. But if this is the result, then you know what? I’m cool with dissonance. I’ll take violent games that strive for fun and don’t pitch any greater meaning, rather than violent games that seek to justify their violence. you can drop it, but you are wrong. and more than anything you are very much proving exactly what i said at the start: your use of the term ludonarrative dissonance was in place of an actual critique, and rather than articulating your point you said nothing at all.
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Feb 1, 2021 11:48
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Videogames are fun
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Feb 1, 2021 11:51
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Death Stranding doesn't make you use lethal weapons at all except for a few specific sequences lol wtf did you even play the game?
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Feb 1, 2021 11:54
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fridge corn posted:Death Stranding doesn't make you use lethal weapons at all except for a few specific sequences lol wtf did you even play the game? thats not what the term means. its not about forcing the player to do anything, its about the player being free to take actions which run entirely counter to how the characters and story are written outside of the gameplay elements. being able to use lethal weapons against other humans as sam, a man who has been through two voidouts with one being extraordinarily traumatic, and who has available an incredible array of non-lethal options is ludonarratively dissonant because there is absolutely no question that sam as written would do absolutely anything to never risk a void out and wouldnt go around murdering the mules who are just throwing stun rods at him to steal his packages. luckily kojima isnt braindead and does not care because having the option is fun, which is more important than some fake made up rules of how you should go about constructing a game. if you wanted to make death stranding not ludonarratively dissonant the game would have to literally stop you from using the lethal weapons against humans, because sam wouldnt use them.
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Feb 1, 2021 12:04
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Stux posted:thats not what the term means. its not about forcing the player to do anything, its about the player being free to take actions which run entirely counter to how the characters and story are written outside of the gameplay elements. being able to use lethal weapons against other humans as sam, a man who has been through two voidouts with one being extraordinarily traumatic, and who has available an incredible array of non-lethal options is ludonarratively dissonant because there is absolutely no question that sam as written would do absolutely anything to never risk a void out and wouldnt go around murdering the mules who are just throwing stun rods at him to steal his packages. luckily kojima isnt braindead and does not care because having the option is fun, which is more important than some fake made up rules of how you should go about constructing a game. if you wanted to make death stranding not ludonarratively dissonant the game would have to literally stop you from using the lethal weapons against humans, because sam wouldnt use them. The player is not Sam. Its important that the player be able to experience the consequences of actions that sam himself would never take so that the player can better understand sam and the world he lives in
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Feb 1, 2021 12:18
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Stux posted:about the player being free to take actions which run entirely counter to how the characters and story are written outside of the gameplay elements. You're both right. An actual example would be how tlou1 tells you Ellie must be protected at all costs yet she's invisible to enemies and runs around during gameplay sections, something re4 had no issue with. But a post apocalyptic man having a mental break when being attacked and using people's weapons against them isn't dissonance. Kojima absolutely cares about dissonance, which is why you can kill the end in like 4 different ways including when skipping a cutscene. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 12:20
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fridge corn posted:The player is not Sam. Its important that the player be able to experience the consequences of actions that sam himself would never take so that the player can better understand sam and the world he lives in youre saying this like im disagreeing. im pro being able to make sam shoot people and then having to deal with "oh god the body... its going to void out lmao why did i do that". but that is explicitly "ludonarrative dissonance" which is why the term is completely meaningless without actually explaining why its bad in a specific context rather than throwing it out as "this makes the game bad", because in a lot of cases its an extremely good thing that games let you do stuff the character actually wouldnt do.
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Feb 1, 2021 12:24
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That's not dissonance, death stranding literally punishes you in multiple ways for killing, forcing you to drop what you're doing to handle it.
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Feb 1, 2021 12:29
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Stux posted:youre saying this like im disagreeing. im pro being able to make sam shoot people and then having to deal with "oh god the body... its going to void out lmao why did i do that". but that is explicitly "ludonarrative dissonance" which is why the term is completely meaningless without actually explaining why its bad in a specific context rather than throwing it out as "this makes the game bad", because in a lot of cases its an extremely good thing that games let you do stuff the character actually wouldnt do. What I'm saying is that specific example is not ludonarrative dissonance
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Feb 1, 2021 12:31
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why would sam kill people, why would he be given multiple pieces of technology which have the singular stand out purpose of being lethal in a world where killing people can be absolutely catastrophic, while every single NPC including the ones responsible for giving him lethal equipment tell him outright to not kill people, and where there are apparently non-lethal weapons which are near identical, are just as effective, and even work on BTs perfectly well? why are they providing him with multiple explosive weapons which could make it extraordinarily hard to prevent void outs, even moreso than with regular weapons? why if the grenade launcher can carry anti-bt rounds, tranq rounds and a round that makes people fall over does he need HE grenades? why does no one restrict or remove his access to the lethal weapons if you go on a spree and kill dozens of mules, simply because he then delivers all of the bodies to an incinerator? what if he missed one? what if he used lethal weapons in areas without an incinerator? would sam the character as written in every single line of dialog and in every cutscene even think about touching the lethal weapons when they give him absolutely zero benefit over the non-lethal weapons? theyre in there because its fun. its all extraordinarily dissonant with the non-gameplay side of the game but theyre fun to use. on top of that even the "punishment" is practically non-existant, theres a shockingly large amount of the map that cannot create a void out at all, and any corpses in those areas are completely fine. in areas where it can happen it can take an extremely long time to the point that a kill later in the game simply will never get a chance to cause an issue, on top of that the game will often tell you corpse disposal simply took care of the corpses you created as if its no issue, overall there is a relatively low chance of one creating a void out and even if you let it happen you simply are reloaded at your last save, and the corpse that wouldve caused the void out is removed. in contrast if you void out by letting sam get caught and dragged under in a BT area it creates a gigantic impassable crater that spawns BTs that instantly kill you, which remains there permanently lol youre just trying to come up with a reason it isnt the scary phrase because youve decided that the phrase means bad.
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Feb 1, 2021 13:17
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Lmao that you think you're lecturing everybody about what it means yet you've got it completely wrong Death Stranding, through its characters, tells you it's wrong to do it, even when it recognises that it's giving you the means to do it it says not to do it and why. Then when you do it anyway, those warnings of consequences become real and you have to deal with it. It's entirely consistent. The only thing that stops that is your own projection onto Sam that he'd never use those weapons which isn't backed up by the game, that's just you. Which is the entire point people were trying to make to you with Kojima vs ND; his games go to pains to ensure they're NOT ludonarratively dissonant but still let you do video game things.
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Feb 1, 2021 13:26
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