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pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

quote:

Was Pete being genuine when he told Don he just thought he should know, or is he playing a game? Did he look at Harry and Paul's pathetic responses to the merger (one keen to keep his head down, the other uselessly moaning about not wanting change) and decide to be more proactive? Did Don's earlier "attaboy" touch him in a way that Duck's compliment about American Airlines did not? Is it down to Pete respecting Don in spite of everything, and his still clear disrespect for Duck in spite of his support? And what about that departing line about the Russian ship? Is it simply a matter of Pete genuinely thinking there is a future after all and looking to secure his position regardless of who wins the Duck/Don battle? Or just an analogy that like the Soviets Duck thinks he can do what he want, and Don taking a stand might be enough to back him down?

I almost spoiled that Pete thing in ep13 before checking myself to see what episode it was on.

It's so prescient that Pete ended up telling Don about Duck's plan after all that went on between them and with Duck giving him the Head of Accounts position. Pete, a high born silver spoon kid who could've made Don eat poo poo for all the times he passed Pete over or humiliated him, went for mercy. Even with everything he wanted in his grasp, knowing what he knows about Don, he still went out of his way to tell Don for whatever reason, even as a favor owed for not getting fired in S1. Bert called it in back then with the "who cares" scene. You never know how loyalty is born.

I wasn't exaggerating about Bert Cooper. Almost every single line written for him or scene with him is pure gold. He's one of the founders, he made his bones during the depression, and he's mastered the art of the ad business in a way none of the others understand or appreciate. He is the real "wise man on the mountain" and just enjoys pretending to be a doddering old guy. Whenever he's in the room during a scene, he's the one to watch.

During the Lane-Pete debacle in S5 everyone in the room its all smiles and humor and Cooper is only one seeing the reality of the situation. The difference between his face and the other partners is a masterclass in directing

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GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

I remember watching this episode for the first time and the only thing I left thinking was "I can't believe Betty hosed Captain Awesome."

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser
I pretty much only know Robert Morse from “How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying” (1967) which is the tale of a window cleaner becoming a CEO without doing basically any work. I choose to believe this is some meta thing on Weiner’s part.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Torquemada posted:

I pretty much only know Robert Morse from “How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying” (1967) which is the tale of a window cleaner becoming a CEO without doing basically any work. I choose to believe this is some meta thing on Weiner’s part.

Uh, kind of? Morse has Broadway training and it kind of comes out in some of his line deliveries which I assume was deliberate. He's always a little "more" like exaggerating his body language or speaking with a theater voice.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.


This is one of my favorite episodes of the series (probably not even top 10 even still!) and an excellent write-up. I really love that final shot, I feel like the entire episode is just so devastating. Everyone is unhappy, miserable, and frankly scared.. except Peggy, who is satisfied at least in knowing who she is and what she wants.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

Another great episode.

I like the contrast between Dr. Aldrich and the doctor Peggy sees in the pilot. Both believe they have the authority to make reproductive decisions for their female patients, but their attitudes are so different. Aldrich actually seems like a compassionate person. He simply has not even considered that Betty is the person in the best position to decide if an abortion is appropriate. It's a pretty deft way of showing that patriarchy and other systems of power and oppression aren't always upheld through conflict. Sometimes it's perpetuated through softer--sometimes even well-intentioned--means.

Betty must have gotten pregnant from that time at her father's house. Spotting occurs early in pregnancy, and Don was kicked out of the house months ago. It's painfully tragic. Betty just needed dopamine to get through a crisis. It wasn't an act of love.

This episode confirms that Peggy still believes in God, which wasn't completely clear to me before. One of her main stories in this season is her wrestling with her faith. Modern living conditions are drastically different than those that existed when the Bible was written, and it makes sense for people to adopt a new moral code in response. Thus, the world is rapidly secularizing, and the number of people who don't belong to any religion is rising rapidly (at least in the west). But there were a couple generations in the US where almost everyone still considered themselves religious, but they started to become less dogmatic, believing whatever they wanted to believe about God. Peggy's level of independence is far greater than the expectations of a conservative body like the Catholic Church. Ultimately she must either reject or accept the church's moral authority, and it's not easy to overcome your childhood beliefs. With the Cuban Missile Crisis making everyone think they could die at any moment, Peggy finally comes to a firm decision that she will keep her own counsel on morality. It takes courage to do this when you've been told all your life that you'll go to hell if you disobey. After all, Peggy can't prove that Father Gill is wrong. She must go into the unknown, just like she's doing by being a woman doing "men's work", and in both cases she can only do her best and hope it's good enough.

The morality of her decision to give up the baby is very interesting. I think she made the right decision. She was nearly catatonic after giving birth. She wasn't the person to give that child what he needed, and after being adopted he might be with a family that would love him. But the reason that it was right for her to give up the baby was that she REALLY REALLY DIDN'T WANT HIM. That doesn't really seem like the best reason, because if you took it to an extreme you could let anyone off the hook for anything. You could let Don off the hook for cheating because he really really wants to sleep with many women.

The obvious difference from my cheating example is that if Don didn't cheat, what would happen? He'd maybe feel more bad moods because he's sexually dissatisfied. OK, well, deal with it, buddy. What would happen if Peggy kept the baby? He'd grow up with a mother who was a pariah, with a father that would probably deny being his father, with two parents who can't help but resent his existence, and so on. There's a possibility of him ending up in an orphanage for a long time or for him to be adopted by bad people, but it seems like his prospects for happiness are better this way. So, she did the right thing, but it's understandable that she's struggled to make peace with her actions.

Also, now we that we finally get confirmation that the baby was put up for adoption, the Campbell adoption storyline takes on a new ironic significance. Pete and Trudy might have ended up with Pete's biological son if they had adopted a child.

A few small things:

Don thanks Pete for giving him the info about Duck. Don says thank you so rarely that I feel the need to point out each instance when it happens. The only thing he does less is apologize.

The meeting with PPL shows us what Don is capable of with a little bit of advance warning (thanks, Pete!). He's like Batman. Unbeatable when he's prepared.

I love the blocking in the scene where Betty decides to sleep with the stranger. The way she slides her shoulder along the wall while going into the bar's back room conveys, “This is happening to me” rather than, “This is something that I'm choosing.” It's perfect.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.
My grandfather once told me about how my second cousin (or somesuch relation) was born during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that when the family went to see him in the hospital nursery he was just standing there thinking "Well, it's a shame he'll be dead with all the rest of us in the next 48 hours." I thought this episode did a good job of capturing that mood, everybody going through the motions of even major life events with a pervasive dread and sense of resignation in the back of their minds.

ulvir posted:

I might be misremembering, but didn’t Mathis end up taking Don’s advice in completely the opposite way? Like instead of making a light-hearted joke about himself with the soap, he just further insulted the client? I never read that as Don getting away with it over “being handsome” but more Mathis not understanding how to defuse a situation at all. You don’t need to look good to make light of something and turn a new page

Don tells him a story about how, as a young creative guy, he spoke up in a meeting with Lucky Strike when he wasn't supposed to be heard at all. When the client came back for a make-good meeting, Don started by greeting them with "You've got some balls, coming back in here after you embarrassed yourself like that." Which is, to be fair, a line that Don Draper can get away with and Mathis could not, but also the kind of humor that works when dealing with people like the Garners, guys with very brusque and bawdy characters. Mathis had offended the reps from Peter Pan by swearing when they criticized the creative work being shown, indicating that they're more "morally upstanding" kind of people. Mathis lets them walk in and starts the meeting using the exact "You've got some balls" line from Don's story, because he clearly figures that if Don Draper said it, it must work. When that line blows up in his face and costs them the account, he decides that it didn't work only because Don gets away with everything, not that he misread the entire situation front to back.

JethroMcB fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 1, 2021

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

pentyne posted:

Uh, kind of? Morse has Broadway training and it kind of comes out in some of his line deliveries which I assume was deliberate. He's always a little "more" like exaggerating his body language or speaking with a theater voice.

It works incredibly well for the role. Fantastic casting imo.

JethroMcB posted:

My grandfather once told me about how my second cousin (or somesuch relation) was born during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that when the family went to see him in the hospital nursery he was just standing there thinking "Well, it's a shame he'll be dead with all the rest of us in the next 48 hours." I thought this episode did a good job of capturing that mood, everybody going through the motions of even major life events with a pervasive dread and sense of resignation in the back of their minds.

I especially love Don and Betty's reactions to learning about the pregnancy. Having a baby during a marital crisis is bad enough!

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
As a reminder:

The Klowner posted:



The first time I saw this, I figured it would be incredibly important to understanding not just the season, but the series as a whole. Someone did a full reading of Don's cards here. (warning, spoilers for the last episode of season 2, "Meditations in an Emergency." The article and the comments were made right after the end of season 2 though, so it will be safe to read for those who haven't seen the full series after Jerusalem's review of the next episode.)

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005

Pillbug
hell yeah get wrecked, pete

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Dammit, I had intended to make note of Cooper's "Who knows where loyalty is born" line and completely forgot.

Love all the talk re: Peggy's growth, Pete's problems, Don and Betty's relationship etc. I do though want to talk a bit more about Duck Phillips, and how much that merger meeting tells us about him.

Duck is absolutely the kind of "team player" that he demands Don has to be from now on (by which he means,"You don't get to be special anymore"), but it is quite telling just how quickly and with how much relish he throws his weight around the moment he DOES have power. When he comes on board to Sterling Cooper, he's a man who has burned his life down and desperately needs a fresh start, and he's deeply grateful for the opportunity he is given. He never quite feels like he belongs though, Don - who hired him! - seems indifferent to his presence and their vision of how an advertising agency is run completely conflict. But he plays his part, he does his job, and he even at one point warns the other execs to forgive Don's eccentricities because "our job is to bend the branch so he can pick the fruit."

It's laudable, team-focused stuff but it comes from a position of relative powerlessness: despite being Head of Account Services he's very much low man on the totem pole, he's subservient to the Creative Director who is also a Partner, and when he talks about his own desire to be Partner he's pretty much told that his work and his effort doesn't warrant that kind of reward. So he goes and makes this deal, and it's a great loving deal, and he gets everything he wanted.... and the very second he does, the very moment HE is in a position of power he wants to lord it over those who previously were above him.

He could have easily been magnanimous, announced that his strategy was a stronger focus on television and increased ad buys for market saturation while throwing Don the relatively harmless bone of saying they'd be relying on his talents and persuasion skills to chase boutique clients, to wow them with advertising magic to get them in the door and keep them there etc. It wouldn't have hurt him at all, it would have kept Don happy but because Duck no longer thinks he HAS to keep Don happy, he seems to think he's free to squash him down and make him squirm and finally feel the full force of Duck's own petty revenge. It's not just Don though, look how quickly he goes from telling Cooper and Roger that he'll always respect the Founders to immediately calling Cooper "Bert" when he questions his strategy. Duck is a petty tyrant whose humility and willingness to put his own ego in check was entirely down to his reduced circumstances, and he has learned nothing and grown not at all thanks to his own humiliations. Instead he just wants to wallow in his newfound/restored power, and as a result he looks like a complete rear end in a top hat first and then a loving idiot second when he discovers Don doesn't have a contract and he's in danger of losing a highly respected and very much in demand Creative Director within the first five minutes of his "leadership" of the Agency.

And a large part of what I love about this character arc is that while Duck is a prominent role, a lot of what he's doing and the things he cares about are very much secondary concerns of both the show itself and the characters who occupy it. For Duck this merger is his whole life, he thinks he's winning a war that his great opponent Don doesn't even realize he's in and wouldn't particularly care about fighting if he did. It's great, because for Duck Don is this major obstacle to overcome, while for Don Duck is largely outside of his thoughts and concerns.

The Klowner posted:

As a reminder:

Reading through this, the line "happiness is at his fingertips" re: Don is both very inspiring and also fills me with a deep sense of dread :ohdear:

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

There's sort of a common wisdom in AA that resentments are the biggest threat to an alcoholic's sobriety. Boy does that story check out in Duck's case.

MyLightyear
Jul 2, 2006
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
PPA

MyLightyear
Jul 2, 2006
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
lolpp

MyLightyear
Jul 2, 2006
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Jerusalem posted:

Duck is absolutely the kind of "team player" that he demands Don has to be from now on (by which he means,"You don't get to be special anymore"), but it is quite telling just how quickly and with how much relish he throws his weight around the moment he DOES have power. When he comes on board to Sterling Cooper, he's a man who has burned his life down and desperately needs a fresh start, and he's deeply grateful for the opportunity he is given. He never quite feels like he belongs though, Don - who hired him! - seems indifferent to his presence and their vision of how an advertising agency is run completely conflict. But he plays his part, he does his job, and he even at one point warns the other execs to forgive Don's eccentricities because "our job is to bend the branch so he can pick the fruit."

I think someone once described it as Duck Phillips is the main character of a different show, and that's what leads to his conflict in Mad Men.

He comes into the show as a "master of the universe" in his third act, during the first part of his downfall. He's a struggling alcoholic to the point it clearly impacts his work, his family situation is poo poo, his brilliant work reputation is just a distant memory, and when he finally does try to argue he deserves his slice of the pie (remember Don never chased partnership, probably because he wasn't going to ever sign a multi-year contract) he's told to eat poo poo directly by Sterling and basically blamed for a bad fiscal year.

It's pretty interesting to see that those same flaws he's struggling with are clearly shown to be serious & significant issues for multiple other execs. Don has his family troubles that are quickly getting worse. Pete the same in a smaller way with butting heads with the in-laws. Freddy was the one who's level of drinking reached a point of potential embarrassment and was cut adrift despite whatever nice things they said.

Duck is just the end stage for most of those in a different way and expecting that life will throw him another chance for his hard work. One of my favorite parts of that episode is the moment Duck leaves the room Saint John turns on him immediately, "He never could hold his liquor".

Literally the driving force behind making a ton of money for everyone in the room and Duck is cut loose at a moments notice. I'd say its a cruel world but the show is corporate 1960s capitalistic nepotism at its finest. Everyone is best friends until its costing them money.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.
Even more satisfying than Don's "I don't have a contract" reveal is how quickly Powell dismisses Duck from the meeting. One gets the feeling that, even if Duck's scheme to sell out his employers and rule them like a tyrant had worked out exactly has he'd planned, the Brits were not going to hold up their end of the bargain the second the deal was closed. A possibility that Duck - blinded by his ego and grievances - somehow never even managed to consider. This is a more dramatic betrayal than anything on Game of Thrones or its ilk.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Also I absolutely adore January Jones' acting in this bit:

https://i.imgur.com/2p5uLRD.mp4

Just that brief little moment where the mask slips and you can see how uncertain and scared she is, and how she is trying to build herself up to do something she would never normally consider in a million years. All done without a word. Just lovely stuff.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser
“He’ll never play golf again.”

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Jerusalem posted:

Also I absolutely adore January Jones' acting in this bit:

https://i.imgur.com/2p5uLRD.mp4

Just that brief little moment where the mask slips and you can see how uncertain and scared she is, and how she is trying to build herself up to do something she would never normally consider in a million years. All done without a word. Just lovely stuff.

Little things like Betty doing that after a lifetime of being the good domestic housewife, giving up all semblance of a life beyond rearing and childcare, and showing not telling in acting terms takes some serious level of talent.

Betty Draper and Skylar White were easily some of the best characters on their respective shows, arguably better then the male leads at times.

I don't know good Jones or Gunn are as actresses but they both absolutely nailed the roles they were given for some of the best written/most critically regarded shows on at the time and faced an endless torrent of poo poo online for being "bitches".

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









pentyne posted:

Little things like Betty doing that after a lifetime of being the good domestic housewife, giving up all semblance of a life beyond rearing and childcare, and showing not telling in acting terms takes some serious level of talent.

Betty Draper and Skylar White were easily some of the best characters on their respective shows, arguably better then the male leads at times.

I don't know good Jones or Gunn are as actresses but they both absolutely nailed the roles they were given for some of the best written/most critically regarded shows on at the time and faced an endless torrent of poo poo online for being "bitches".

i don't think its unfair to say Jones doesn't have a lot of range, but she's perfect as betty.

Mr. Sloth
Jun 5, 2004

GIMME DEM PIZZA PIES

Jerusalem posted:

Duck leaps on this with delight, here it is again: Creative and their Artistic Temperament, but for once Duck doesn't get to call the shots!

...

Don stands and with an air of finality tells Saint John Powell and Alec Martin that he sells advertising, not products.

Great write-up as always JRu, only pointing out these errors because I thought you'd want to know / correct them. Duck should be Don in the first line & products/advertising should be reversed in the 2nd line.

Once again, great thread.

Capntastic
Jan 13, 2005

A dog begins eating a dusty old coil of rope but there's a nail in it.

Core to what makes him stand in defiance to other characters on the show he's struggling against at this time, Duck is someone who truly desperately believes the job can save him and everything broken in his life.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

VinylonUnderground posted:

Pete is a complex character. He's the best character on the show.

If children are a burdensome obligation (something he was undoubtedly told many times) why would you go out of your way to adopt? If having children will make your spouse (the only person who loves you in an unqualified manner), why wouldn't you give them what they want? Why does your spouse love you, when you are a grimy unlovable person (something you undoubtedly know to be true)? What is wrong with them? Why can't you provide your spouse what they need? Why can't you succeed? When you look in the mirror, you don't see what is wrong with you. You aren't the most handsome man but you basically look fine. So why does everyone treat you like some hideous goblin? And what the gently caress is wrong with the one person who doesn't? Why do they accept you? Are they having their father give you money to mock you? Is that what it is? Are you some kind of a joke, a doormat to them? gently caress them! You just want to be loved but you are clearly unlovable so why does this seemingly normal person love you? Are you just some loving clown? You are creative, your ideas are just as good as Don or Paul. OK, maybe not as good but they are still pretty solid ideas and at least worth considering. Why do people see greatness in them and just treat you like a joke? And then there is Rodger. He's got a lineage. But you've got a better lineage. Why do people respect him when he's at least as much of a fuckup as you are. Why doesn't anybody love me and what is wrong with the people who do love me?

Set a timer and say that to yourself everyday at the top of the hour every hour. And a few times in between. Maybe ever 15 minutes or so when you are stressed or just are alone like when you take a poop or just close your eyes for a moment. Live in that skin for a while.

Then Pete makes total and complete sense.

Primo pete post

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

pentyne posted:

show us on the doll where Matthew Weiner touched you

Vinylon has a point. Weiner's love of privilege is something that jars with his depiction of its infantilizing and negative effects. I think its interesting, but it can also lead to tepid valorizing if it isnt carefully calibrated.

CoughTheRomanovscough

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

GoutPatrol posted:

I would disagree on this. I feel like the entire point of the final conversation is Mathis saying anything Don would have done to fix it would work, while anything Mathis does wouldn't (you may disagree on this, but I think that's true. Nothing Mathis did probably would of made the client happy). He could get away with so many things because of his looks, and I think Mad Men does a great job explaining that - like when Pete and Don go golfing and Don forgets his golf clothes, and just goes "I'll throw my tie back and roll up my sleeves, they'll love it." Pete replies "...they probably will." and they go. Only a Don could get away with this. Even Don does subconsciously know this, when they all go on speed and Don is explaining to tap dancing Ken that "he must be there in the flesh" on his pitches, because in the end, a big part of his sales pitch is himself.

I keep on thinking about the line in S7 where Sally says Don and Betty ooze when ppl look at them.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Shageletic posted:

Vinylon has a point. Weiner's love of privilege is something that jars with his depiction of its infantilizing and negative effects. I think its interesting, but it can also lead to tepid valorizing if it isnt carefully calibrated.

CoughTheRomanovscough


see also: Wes Anderson

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

"If," warns Ken, but once he's gone Lois' face breaks out in a huge smile, this merger is going to be great for her!


BrotherJayne
Nov 28, 2019

Betty's on the spectrum, yoooooo

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

BrotherJayne posted:

Betty's on the spectrum, yoooooo

No she's just one of those quirky girls with their head in the clouds.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

Jerusalem posted:

He could have easily been magnanimous, announced that his strategy was a stronger focus on television and increased ad buys for market saturation while throwing Don the relatively harmless bone of saying they'd be relying on his talents and persuasion skills to chase boutique clients, to wow them with advertising magic to get them in the door and keep them there etc. It wouldn't have hurt him at all, it would have kept Don happy but because Duck no longer thinks he HAS to keep Don happy, he seems to think he's free to squash him down and make him squirm and finally feel the full force of Duck's own petty revenge. It's not just Don though, look how quickly he goes from telling Cooper and Roger that he'll always respect the Founders to immediately calling Cooper "Bert" when he questions his strategy. Duck is a petty tyrant whose humility and willingness to put his own ego in check was entirely down to his reduced circumstances, and he has learned nothing and grown not at all thanks to his own humiliations. Instead he just wants to wallow in his newfound/restored power, and as a result he looks like a complete rear end in a top hat first and then a loving idiot second when he discovers Don doesn't have a contract and he's in danger of losing a highly respected and very much in demand Creative Director within the first five minutes of his "leadership" of the Agency.

I just realized something else. When Duck says, "When the economy is good, people buy things. And when it's not they don't," he's making a direct callback to his meeting with Roger where Duck said he thought the company had performed well in a dismal year (which 1962 was, for the corporate sector--at one point the S&P 500 was down 22% from its peak earlier in that year), and Roger just shrugged and didn't cut him any slack for that. He really is holding on to every grievance. Even as he's curt with Bert, he's also kind of calling Roger an idiot for not acknowledging that the economic downturn would inevitably affect Sterling Cooper.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018

Jerusalem posted:

It's great, because for Duck Don is this major obstacle to overcome, while for Don Duck is largely outside of his thoughts and concerns.

Saving this for later.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

Saving this for later.

I never think about you at all

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

VinylonUnderground posted:

Pete is a complex character. He's the best character on the show.

:words:

Then Pete makes total and complete sense.

Loved this post :)

Something I always notice is how many times Pete simply sits alone in his office in the dark. Not reading, not drinking or smoking or really doing much of anything but just wanting to be left alone and hidden away, perhaps even from himself. It reminds me of his fantasy of being a self-sufficient mountain man where all his wife does is simply sit and watch without judging/questioning/speaking/interacting, because it feels like all he really, truly wants is to not have to deal with ANYTHING.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

Shageletic posted:

Vinylon has a point. Weiner's love of privilege is something that jars with his depiction of its infantilizing and negative effects. I think its interesting, but it can also lead to tepid valorizing if it isnt carefully calibrated.

CoughTheRomanovscough


I was so psyched for The Romanoffs and goddamn what a let-down that was. Though I think the Russian orphanage episode is legit great; it has a lot of things to say about privilege, and valorizing it isn't one of them.

sure okay
Apr 7, 2006





Two things I think about a lot from this season are

1. The scene where Paul is told Don's going to California in his stead and he reacts, "He can't do that!" The group's reaction is merely to laugh and no one even bothers to correct him. Of course he can. Like, these abstract qualities of "clout" and "authority" made manifest so swiftly and so sharply they humiliate a man to his core. Don obviously never meant that, but that didn't matter at all. I couldn't imagine getting so thoroughly owned by my boss in front of my peers, and to know (or even suspect) that it wasn't personal. At the very least I'd want such a slight to be personal.

2. Roger is so casual about Don's impromptu vacation that I honestly thought I had skipped an episode. I knew going in that this was a show that was, in part, about a guy who gets away with goddamn near everything primarily because of how he carries himself but wow. I think about how if he showed the slightest hint of guilt, or gave any sort of verbal mea culpa to Roger that whole outcome would've gone very differently. But his inscrutable, unapologetic poker face takes him so freaking far in life it is breathtaking.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









sure okay posted:

Two things I think about a lot from this season are

1. The scene where Paul is told Don's going to California in his stead and he reacts, "He can't do that!" The group's reaction is merely to laugh and no one even bothers to correct him. Of course he can. Like, these abstract qualities of "clout" and "authority" made manifest so swiftly and so sharply they humiliate a man to his core. Don obviously never meant that, but that didn't matter at all. I couldn't imagine getting so thoroughly owned by my boss in front of my peers, and to know (or even suspect) that it wasn't personal. At the very least I'd want such a slight to be personal.

2. Roger is so casual about Don's impromptu vacation that I honestly thought I had skipped an episode. I knew going in that this was a show that was, in part, about a guy who gets away with goddamn near everything primarily because of how he carries himself but wow. I think about how if he showed the slightest hint of guilt, or gave any sort of verbal mea culpa to Roger that whole outcome would've gone very differently. But his inscrutable, unapologetic poker face takes him so freaking far in life it is breathtaking.

it's how he carries himself and because he's really good. Don makes them absolute shitloads of money, and the nicest suit and the most suave demeanour wouldn't mean poo poo without that.

like in the first ep, where don's blanking on lucky strike and roger's quite blunt about why he's there: to deliver.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

Roger, for all we know in his heart of hearts, maybe does believe that Don's disappearance is about fixing stuff with Betty.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Xealot posted:

I was so psyched for The Romanoffs and goddamn what a let-down that was. Though I think the Russian orphanage episode is legit great; it has a lot of things to say about privilege, and valorizing it isn't one of them.

I kinda lost interest from what I saw of the first episode, the reviews, and no one talking about it so I might just be talking out of my rear end.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

GoutPatrol posted:

Roger, for all we know in his heart of hearts, maybe does believe that Don's disappearance is about fixing stuff with Betty.

There is also a degree of guilt there too I think, at least as much as Roger can feel that. Maybe pained sympathy is the better term? He knows he kinda made things a little harder for Don on top of the issues he was already having with Betty and it put a strain on things between the two men, so he's a bit more willing to cover for Don during his absence as a result.

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