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Pennsylvanian
May 23, 2010

Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky Independent Presidential Regiment
Western Liberal Democracy or Death!

DarkHorse posted:

That's a big part of the character development for dalinar, he's deliberately trying NOT to just abuse his power, for several reasons. One, Alethkar is barely a country and though it was forged by brutally killing anyone that resisted, it's not a good way to keep it alive past said bully's death. And two, Dalinar himself no longer wishes to be the Blackthorn, for reasons that will become obvious in later books

It's actually a very satisfying character arc in my opinion

I know. It's just a very tiring thing to have to deal with in so many different stories. Maybe just once in a while, I'd like to experience a fantasy story where the protagonist can just be a ruthless power abuser in a practical way.

Leng posted:

Lift is divisive. I hated her POVs in WoR too. She's the main character of the Edgedancer novella which you could probably skip without too much of an issue for the first five books (she's a main character for the back five), though it did make me like her more. I'm still not a fan of how different her speech is compared to everyone else. It is just really jarring for me.

It was just a really inopportune place to introduce such a character for a chapter that lasted 2 hours in an audiobook. This was also after that Rysn section that seemed to go on forever.

Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 9, 2021

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Fezz
Aug 31, 2001

You should feel ashamed.
I think the problem is the audiobook format. It really stretches out the content. I certainly don't remember it taking me an hour, let alone two, to read the interludes.

I would suggest changing the playback speed to 1.5 or even 1.7.

Also, Lift is fine. She's a dumb gutter punk and I love her and don't mind her different way of speaking.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today

Fezz posted:

Also, Lift is fine. She's a dumb gutter punk and I love her and don't mind her different way of speaking.

I don't mind a different way of speaking, except for the fact that it felt like a Reckoners chapter got bound inside in my Stormlight book by accident. :v:

And I'm saying this as someone who has read all of the Reckoner books as well.

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010


Pennsylvanian posted:

Got further in Words of Radiance today. Thoughts:

-I skipped the section called "Lift" about a character of the same name. I'll go back and make sure it's not important, but I was just actually angry at the book at that moment in time. I'm genuinely tired of how bad he is at cliffhanger porn. I'm okay with being left in suspense as long as something with a character I'm invested in is happening. But when a passage like "And then Maincharacter turned around and saw his best friend, his best friend pulled out a huge goddamned sword and used that sword to cut Maincharacter's goddamned head off,"

I'm surprised at this complaint actually, this is one of the things I think Sanderson does better than other authors. He leaves threads hanging enough that you're still interested in them, but I don't feel like he leaves cliffhangers very often. Perspective switches never seem to happen in dire circumstances (unless its in the rapid perspective switching of an ongoing battle, but that's another thing), and you're never left like "is so-and-so about to die???" while you grind through a boring chapter. Maybe that's just me though.

I kind of agree on Lift though. I really like her in her more sincere moments (edgedancer spoilers) like when she's committed to remembering those who are forgotten or trying to help people (the beggar child killed by Nale, and the Stump). But those are pretty few and far between. Her default state of "I'm WEIRD and I like to STEAL FOOD hyuck" are really tiresome at best.

Taffer fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Feb 9, 2021

Pennsylvanian
May 23, 2010

Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky Independent Presidential Regiment
Western Liberal Democracy or Death!

Fezz posted:

I think the problem is the audiobook format. It really stretches out the content. I certainly don't remember it taking me an hour, let alone two, to read the interludes.

I would suggest changing the playback speed to 1.5 or even 1.7.

Also, Lift is fine. She's a dumb gutter punk and I love her and don't mind her different way of speaking.

I was just listening to the dialogue and groaning, and I saw that I was only twenty minutes into a ~1h 15min chapter. The other interludes were not nearly so bad for the most part. It was also just placed during a really bad spot for it, and I have no context for any other Sanderson works.

Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Feb 9, 2021

Yngwie Mangosteen
Aug 23, 2007
Lift is bad. I have said this from the beginning.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
Lift is good. If you like fun that is.

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

Captain Monkey posted:

Lift is bad. I have said this from the beginning.

She could be good but unfortunately she is not.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


M_Gargantua posted:

Lift is good. If you like fun that is.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



M_Gargantua posted:

Lift is good. If you like fun that is.

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007
lift is actually the only good character

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Pennsylvanian posted:

Maybe just once in a while, I'd like to experience a fantasy story where the protagonist can just be a ruthless power abuser in a practical way.

Hmmmm...Kelseir?

mewse
May 2, 2006

Pennsylvanian posted:

I know. It's just a very tiring thing to have to deal with in so many different stories. Maybe just once in a while, I'd like to experience a fantasy story where the protagonist can just be a ruthless power abuser in a practical way.

Broken Empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence has a protag that has no moral qualms. It's interesting in the first book but by the third it feels like the character has grown a conscience so it's a bit weird. The books in general are very grimdark to the point I finally understood the term 100%.

e: oh wait better suggestion, Maurice Druon is a French author that wrote a series of novels about real-life French monarchs. The first entry "the iron king" deals with the king of france ending the knights templar - it reads like fiction. Translations of these books were available recently with a cover blurb from GRRM saying "these books are the real game of thrones"

mewse fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 9, 2021

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Pennsylvanian posted:

I know. It's just a very tiring thing to have to deal with in so many different stories. Maybe just once in a while, I'd like to experience a fantasy story where the protagonist can just be a ruthless power abuser in a practical way.
Reverend Insanity, the MC is ruthlessly evil in pursuit of power, to the point that it can be hard to stomach reading it. You also have to deal with it being Xianxia translated from Chinese.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

mewse posted:

Broken Empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence has a protag that has no moral qualms. It's interesting in the first book but by the third it feels like the character has grown a conscience so it's a bit weird. The books in general are very grimdark to the point I finally understood the term 100%.

e: oh wait better suggestion, Maurice Druon is a French author that wrote a series of novels about real-life French monarchs. The first entry "the iron king" deals with the king of france ending the knights templar - it reads like fiction. Translations of these books were available recently with a cover blurb from GRRM saying "these books are the real game of thrones"

The broken empire has Prince of Fools or Red Queens War, which is really good IMO. Much better than the broken empire, but you gotta read it first anyway imo...

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?
I can't handle all this Lift hate :(

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

I'm really conflicted on Lift.

I love how she calls Wyndle a starvin' voidbringer all the time, but I can't stand all the "tightbutt" comments and poo poo like that.

External Organs
Mar 3, 2006

One time i prank called a bear buildin workshop and said I wanted my mamaws ashes put in a teddy from where she loved them things so well... The woman on the phone did not skip a beat. She just said, "Brang her on down here. We've did it before."
Kaladin frowned as a tightbutt spren floated menacingly nearby.

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?

Sab669 posted:

I'm really conflicted on Lift.

I love how she calls Wyndle a starvin' voidbringer all the time, but I can't stand all the "tightbutt" comments and poo poo like that.

It's pretty silly I'll admit but sometimes it's good to have a bit of silliness after 500 pages of politicking and warfare and Kaladin moping for the nth time. (I love Kaladin and I know firsthand that depression is a bitch but gently caress me if it doesn't get repetitive to read)

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

I don't necessarily mind silliness, it's just that her vocabulary is so incongruent with anyone else in the world that it's really jarring. I did mostly enjoy Edgedancer though.

Not reeeeally a spoiler but :shrug: The "implications" of her special abilities is extremely interesting and for that I like her, and I want to know more about what she asked the Nightwatcher.

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?
I get the feeling that's sort of the point. She's got Peter Pan syndrome bad. Really really bad. She REALLY doesn't want to grow up and her weird childish way of talking and antics are a symptom of that.

I'm still only halfway through Rhythm and I dearly hope we get to see some character development for her later down the road.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Kaiser Mazoku posted:

I get the feeling that's sort of the point. She's got Peter Pan syndrome bad. Really really bad. She REALLY doesn't want to grow up and her weird childish way of talking and antics are a symptom of that.

I'm still only halfway through Rhythm and I dearly hope we get to see some character development for her later down the road.

yeah there's a lot of really aggressive denial going on with Lift

doesn't make her parts not-annoying for the people who don't like her but there does appear to be reasons for it (i assume we don't get full development until she becomes a main character in the back 5)

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

Kaiser Mazoku posted:

I get the feeling that's sort of the point. She's got Peter Pan syndrome bad. Really really bad. She REALLY doesn't want to grow up and her weird childish way of talking and antics are a symptom of that.

I'm still only halfway through Rhythm and I dearly hope we get to see some character development for her later down the road.

I think the problem is that when we get flashbacks to Kaladin and Shallan's childhoods, NOBODY talks like she does. Kal didn't, the kids around Hearthstone didn't, Tein didn't, Shallan and her brothers didn't. It's not just that she "talks in a childish way", it's that a lot of her vocabulary doesn't feel Rosharan at all.

"Starvin' voidbringer" works. "Awesome" and "Tightbutt" don't. Not for me, anyways.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Sab669 posted:

I think the problem is that when we get flashbacks to Kaladin and Shallan's childhoods, NOBODY talks like she does. Kal didn't, the kids around Hearthstone didn't, Tein didn't, Shallan and her brothers didn't. It's not just that she "talks in a childish way", it's that a lot of her vocabulary doesn't feel Rosharan at all.

"Starvin' voidbringer" works. "Awesome" and "Tightbutt" don't. Not for me, anyways.

not really a good comparison because she's a street urchin from a city we've never been that's part of a completely different culture on the other side of the world from our bougie Vorin main characters

eke out fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 9, 2021

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010

Sab669 posted:

I think the problem is that when we get flashbacks to Kaladin and Shallan's childhoods, NOBODY talks like she does. Kal didn't, the kids around Hearthstone didn't, Tein didn't, Shallan and her brothers didn't. It's not just that she "talks in a childish way", it's that a lot of her vocabulary doesn't feel Rosharan at all.

"Starvin' voidbringer" works. "Awesome" and "Tightbutt" don't. Not for me, anyways.

this could also be an indication that she's very old. like, older than any of the other characters old.

It seems pretty likely that her wish to the nightmother was to never grow up, so she might have existed as she was for who knows how long before she first appeared, and also that Cultivation just doesn't keep her promises, rather she uses them as pretense to force people to grow in specific ways.

Lift's slang isn't modern, it's specifically old fashioned for roshar.


looking forward to the lift flashback book when everyone talks like her

(also you should read the lift chapter because after book 5 she's getting promoted to main character)

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?
The Reshi are a cultural 180 from Alethkar and other similar nations. To illustrate, casual nudity is nothing to them while an ungloved left hand in Alethkar is the height of scandal. It's not a far toss to imagine their way of speaking would be vastly different as well.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



egg tats posted:

this could also be an indication that she's very old. like, older than any of the other characters old.

It seems pretty likely that her wish to the nightmother was to never grow up, so she might have existed as she was for who knows how long before she first appeared, and also that Cultivation just doesn't keep her promises, rather she uses them as pretense to force people to grow in specific ways.

Lift's slang isn't modern, it's specifically old fashioned for roshar.


it's a fun theory but i think, after book 4, we know pretty explicitly that Lift's wish that she believed should stop her from aging was actually interpreted differently by Cultivation, which is why she's in such denial/so unhappy about hitting puberty and it becoming obvious that she IS in fact changing.

just how metabolizing food into Lifelight stops her from changing in a way that technically fulfills her request is an open question, of course

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007

eke out posted:

it's a fun theory but i think, after book 4, we know pretty explicitly that Lift's wish that she believed should stop her from aging was actually interpreted differently by Cultivation, which is why she's in such denial/so unhappy about hitting puberty and it becoming obvious that she IS in fact changing.

just how metabolizing food into Lifelight stops her from changing in a way that technically fulfills her request is an open question, of course


i suspect lifts boon is that her lifelight metabolizing power will allow her to never grow old, which is distinctly different from what she wanted, which was to remain a child

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



scary ghost dog posted:

i suspect lifts boon is that her lifelight metabolizing power will allow her to never grow old, which is distinctly different from what she wanted, which was to remain a child

yeah i think this is basically it, she's more or less constantly invested in a way no one else that consumes stormlight is, more like someone that has Breaths -- decades of that could well stop her from aging once she hits a certain point

mewse
May 2, 2006

egg tats posted:

this could also be an indication that she's very old. like, older than any of the other characters old.

It seems pretty likely that her wish to the nightmother was to never grow up, so she might have existed as she was for who knows how long before she first appeared, and also that Cultivation just doesn't keep her promises, rather she uses them as pretense to force people to grow in specific ways.


Was wondering about the nightwatcher

We've had three primary chars with boon/curses from nightwatcher: dalinar, lift, and taravangian - I don't remember specifically how Dalinar's boon/curse expired but it was around the time he elevated to bondsmith.

Taravangian's boon/curse kinda became irrelevant.

Lift's boon/curse seems to be evaporating? Due to the recreance/etc/unknown? Maybe speaking the ideals aligns the person with honor's light rather than cultivation's?

big mean giraffe
Dec 13, 2003

Eat Shit and Die

Lipstick Apathy

egg tats posted:

this could also be an indication that she's very old. like, older than any of the other characters old.

It seems pretty likely that her wish to the nightmother was to never grow up, so she might have existed as she was for who knows how long before she first appeared, and also that Cultivation just doesn't keep her promises, rather she uses them as pretense to force people to grow in specific ways.

Lift's slang isn't modern, it's specifically old fashioned for roshar.


looking forward to the lift flashback book when everyone talks like her

(also you should read the lift chapter because after book 5 she's getting promoted to main character)

Lift physically ages, she was 13 when the true desolation started. She's been binding for a while, and the latest book talks about how she has trouble fitting into spaces now

mewse posted:


Taravangian's boon/curse kinda became irrelevant.


We don't know this for sure, that got a RAFO when Brandon was asked

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



mewse posted:

Was wondering about the nightwatcher


Taravangian's boon/curse kinda became irrelevant.


brandon is very aggressively RAFOing whether Taravangian's whole deal still applies while holding a Shard, i don't think we know at all

edit: drat, beat, that was fast

Fezz
Aug 31, 2001

You should feel ashamed.

mewse posted:

Was wondering about the nightwatcher

We've had three primary chars with boon/curses from nightwatcher: dalinar, lift, and taravangian


All three of those characters received their boons from Cultivation directly rather than the Nightwatcher. I imagine getting a boon from a shard is a lot different from getting one from a spren.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Pennsylvanian posted:

Maybe just once in a while, I'd like to experience a fantasy story where the protagonist can just be a ruthless power abuser in a practical way.

The Broken Empire trilogy is pretty decent in this regard.

External Organs posted:

Kaladin frowned as a tightbutt spren floated menacingly nearby.

Stupid sexy Flanderspren.

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010

big mean giraffe posted:

Lift physically ages, she was 13 when the true desolation started. She's been binding for a while, and the latest book talks about how she has trouble fitting into spaces now


Lift physically ages now. AFAIK we don't know that she has always been aging.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
RoW spoilers: Just realized how literal the Stormwather was in Oathbringer, when he told Dalinar that "no Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, mind and souls." Now we know that a bondsmith Connected the Heralds to Braize (and each other), and Ishar joined Sizgil's Windrunner squad with Roshar to make them run out of Stormlight.

Aggro
Apr 24, 2003

STRONG as an OX and TWICE as SMART

Evil Fluffy posted:

The Broken Empire trilogy is pretty decent in this regard.

Yea, Broken Empire is extremely good, and the follow up trilogy is even better. I’m annoyed as gently caress Mark Lawrence pivoted to writing mediocre YA fantasy because I absolutely loved the world he had crafted in those books.

For more gritty, morally ambiguous fantasy, The Steel Remains and its follow ups by Richard K. Morgan are excellent.

Yngwie Mangosteen
Aug 23, 2007

Slanderer posted:

She could be good but unfortunately she is not.

:hai:

afroserty
Apr 22, 2010
Re: Lift's gift

I thought that Lift's request granted by Cultivation was kind of clearly fulfilled in Rhythm of War by the fact that she was "to stay the same" by still being able to use use her surgebinding powers when no one else could. It was just granted in a roundabout way by her using Lifelight instead of Stormlight, because the tower was only suppressing storm light use. Cultivation was just using 4D chess so that they could win back the tower.

Unless I'm missing something but that fulfils the contract and ties it up into a neat little bow. Just not in the way Lift thought it would, which is to be expected.

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mewse
May 2, 2006

afroserty posted:

Re: Lift's gift

I thought that Lift's request granted by Cultivation was kind of clearly fulfilled in Rhythm of War by the fact that she was "to stay the same" by still being able to use use her surgebinding powers when no one else could. It was just granted in a roundabout way by her using Lifelight instead of Stormlight, because the tower was only suppressing storm light use. Cultivation was just using 4D chess so that they could win back the tower.

Unless I'm missing something but that fulfils the contract and ties it up into a neat little bow. Just not in the way Lift thought it would, which is to be expected.

I doubt it.. that would seem a bit too tricksy for Sanderson. We don't even know what Lift's curse was from the nightwatcher, so it's hard to speculate why her boon seems to be fading (I was thinking her interactions with stormlight or radiant ideals might be causing it, in a functionally similar way to Dalinar's boon fading). Someone in the thread might know of WoBs that illuminate parts of this

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