Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

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Nth Doctor: Sep 7, 2010; Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

sb hermit posted:

This resonates with me a whole lot because it allows the victim to make peace with the fact that the wrong-doer will continue to do wrong. And attempting to guide or change the wrong-doer's agency simply via forgiveness can lead at the very least to frustration, if not somewhere worse.

What keeps rolling around in my head with this tweet is:
Having and expressing the capacity to forgive is about my character. Repeatedly harming is about theirs.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 06:47

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# ? Apr 16, 2024 15:42

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Tias posted:

It really depends on who you ask in the islamic world. Zaydi and Twelvers are on the moral realist side of things, in that the moral value of acts is accessible to unaided reason, so that humans can make moral judgments about divine acts. They posited that individuals have free will to commit evil and absolved God of responsibility for such acts. God's 'making things right' more or less consists of punishing evildoers ex facto.

Older sunni thought insisted on ultimate divine transcendence and teaches that human knowledge regarding it is limited to what has been revealed through the prophets, so that on the question of God's creation of evil, revelation has to accepted bila kayfa (without [asking] how).

Somewhere in this period you also have the Ash'ari, argued that ordinary moral judgments stem from emotion and social convention, which are inadequate to either condemn or justify divine actions.

Anyway, on to Avicenna( Ibn Sina), who, while nominally Sunni, brought an analysis of teodice viewed through a neoplatonic ideal that was much followed from then on. He believed that God, as the absolutely good First Cause, created a good world. Avicenna argued that evil refers either to a cause of an entity (such as burning in a fire), being a quality of another entity, or to its imperfection (such as blindness), in which case it does not exist as an entity. Thus, such qualities are necessary attributes of the best possible order of things, so that the good they serve is greater than the harm they cause.

Interesting. I think those are all answers that have been posed to the problem of evil by various Christians too.

Keromaru5 posted:

2) Forgiveness does not necessarily mean you have to trust the person, or continue to give them your time. It's perfectly fine to cut yourself off from toxic people, or bad influences. My mind often turns to this comment from Fr. Stephen Freeman's blog (specifically, from this post).

Fr. Stephen Freeman's blog has a bunch of articles about the Problem of Evil on his front page, what I've read so far has been very interesting.

sb hermit posted:

I just want to pop in and say thank you to everyone with the great quotes about explaining what I had always thought about regarding forgiveness, but putting it so eloquently and solidifying some other ideas that were a bit vague at the time.

This resonates with me a whole lot because it allows the victim to make peace with the fact that the wrong-doer will continue to do wrong. And attempting to guide or change the wrong-doer's agency simply via forgiveness can lead at the very least to frustration, if not somewhere worse.

Forgiveness is for the victim, not just the perpetrator. We want to feel better after we're wronged in some way, and it's easy to think that we'll feel better if those who injure us are punished, but we don't need them to suffer, or even mend their ways in order to stop hurting.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 07:04

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Nth Doctor posted:

What keeps rolling around in my head with this tweet is:
Having and expressing the capacity to forgive is about my character. Repeatedly harming is about theirs.

Yeah this is key. And it also brings to mind that there is a difference between individual forgiveness and cultural/societal/group forgiveness. As individuals we often need to forgive to be able to move forward, but society has an obligation to protect its members from repeated harm.

These two things are so far different in fact that I'd say that trying to critique "Cancel Culture" through the lens of (spiritual) "Forgiveness" (and related concepts) is a logical equivocation. They're not the same thing, and they're not mutually exclusive. Someone can be simultaneously "cancelled" and "forgiven."

# ? Feb 10, 2021 18:24

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

CommonShore posted:

Someone can be simultaneously "cancelled" and "forgiven."

Bring back public penance. Bishops and policemen and politicians in sackcloth and ashes, fasting and begging passerby to pray for them.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 22:46

Morning Bell: Feb 23, 2006; Illegal Hen

CommonShore posted:

And it also brings to mind that there is a difference between individual forgiveness and cultural/societal/group forgiveness.

Sounds like a good way to wash one's hands. "Yeah, my friends and compatriots hounded that [bad journalist, whatever] until they got fired, but I actually have forgiven them as a forgiving person, we just haven't forgiven as a group, namaste, praying 4 my haters."

It's absolutely reasonable to say "we will not forgive such-and-such enemy, even if they ask for it, we must destroy them or they'll destroy us, and that is not immoral", but in the subtext in the last couple of pages of this here religionthread-forgiveness-chat I reckon there's a little bit of hemming and hedging�about how we are forgiving people who like forgiveness, but just not right now, forgiveness rocks we do it all the time when nobody's looking, forgiveness is contingent on this-or-that and so I'm not being unforgiving it's just there are 50 genres of forgiveness and some are bad. "There is a cultural war going on, forgiving such-and-such enemies is going to ruin us and others, we'd be idiots to forgive, the world might be improved if we unforgivingly hunt and condemn this or that," is a sentiment that's maybe being danced around. One way such a statement might interact with Elizabeth Bruenig's tweets is to consider just who these unforgivable�enemies are.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 22:49

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Morning Bell posted:

Sounds like a good way to wash one's hands. "Yeah, my friends and compatriots hounded that [bad journalist, whatever] until they got fired, but I actually have forgiven them as a forgiving person, we just haven't forgiven as a group, namaste, praying 4 my haters."

It's absolutely reasonable to say "we will not forgive such-and-such enemy, even if they ask for it, we must destroy them or they'll destroy us, and that is not immoral", but in the subtext in the last couple of pages of this here religionthread-forgiveness-chat I reckon there's a little bit of hemming and hedging�about how we are forgiving people who like forgiveness, but just not right now, forgiveness rocks we do it all the time when nobody's looking, forgiveness is contingent on this-or-that and so I'm not being unforgiving it's just there are 50 genres of forgiveness and some are bad. "There is a cultural war going on, forgiving such-and-such enemies is going to ruin us and others, we'd be idiots to forgive, the world might be improved if we unforgivingly hunt and condemn this or that," is a sentiment that's maybe being danced around. One way such a statement might interact with Elizabeth Bruenig's tweets is to consider just who these unforgivable�enemies are.

I would say the load-bearing word in Bruenig's tweets would be "editors."

She was, I infer, talking about how editors were turning down her pitches for media pieces on how it is necessary to forgive-- someone; presumably someone who has been, as they say, "cancelled."

This is somewhat orthogonal to the greater concept of mercy, forgiveness, and so on.

e: Like I don't think there is an obligation to provide full restorative justice to someone of high station, including the restoration of that station, as a necessary precondition of "forgiveness" having occurred. I might, for instance, forgive in my heart the four years and change of strain and anxiety and anger which a certain former president has caused me, both directly and indirectly. I do not believe this would obligate me to advocate for the removal of his permaban on a certain public platform.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Feb 10, 2021

# ? Feb 10, 2021 23:08

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

Nessus posted:

I would say the load-bearing word in Bruenig's tweets would be "editors."

She was, I infer, talking about how editors were turning down her pitches for media pieces on how it is necessary to forgive-- someone; presumably someone who has been, as they say, "cancelled."

This is somewhat orthogonal to the greater concept of mercy, forgiveness, and so on.

e: Like I don't think there is an obligation to provide full restorative justice to someone of high station, including the restoration of that station, as a necessary precondition of "forgiveness" having occurred. I might, for instance, forgive in my heart the four years and change of strain and anxiety and anger which a certain former president has caused me, both directly and indirectly. I do not believe this would obligate me to advocate for the removal of his permaban on a certain public platform.

In fact, arguably, it might obligate you to advocate that the permaban be maintained, because it was a near occasion of sin for him to have access to it.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 02:28

Thirteen Orphans: Dec 2, 2012; I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

zonohedron posted:

In fact, arguably, it might obligate you to advocate that the permaban be maintained, because it was a near occasion of sin for him to have access to it.

I read this post before the post it quoted and thought you were talking about Lowtax.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 02:33

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

It's a pretty solid principle, IMO. Such-and-such a person does such-and-such a thing while in a position of power - maybe they're a doctor, maybe they're a senator, maybe they own a website, whatever - and it is a bad thing, and so the person loses access to the power. Forgiveness not only does not require restoring the power, it may require not doing so, because if we forgive, we don't want further harm to come to the person we're forgiving, and putting them in the position of constantly being tempted to repeat their wrongdoing is not kind of us!

# ? Feb 11, 2021 02:51

Morning Bell: Feb 23, 2006; Illegal Hen

zonohedron posted:

It's a pretty solid principle, IMO. Such-and-such a person does such-and-such a thing while in a position of power - maybe they're a doctor, maybe they're a senator, maybe they own a website, whatever - and it is a bad thing, and so the person loses access to the power. Forgiveness not only does not require restoring the power, it may require not doing so, because if we forgive, we don't want further harm to come to the person we're forgiving, and putting them in the position of constantly being tempted to repeat their wrongdoing is not kind of us!

I don't disagree in general - except the 'tempted' part is not how I'd put it, a bit glamorising of the Us and dehumanising of the Person, who we are justly punishing out of the goodness of our hearts, while they sit and sweat bullets like a smoker in withdrawal: "must... be... good... cannot allow myself to write that sweet sweet problematic essay... maybe just one little paragraph...". �

Although it's funny because I wrote the above, felt a touch high and mighty, "transcending pretty emotional hurt I now vibrate on a plane of forgiveness and calm", then I thought about Lowtax and, man, I don't forgive that guy at all. Easy to talk about, hard to do, hey.

Worthleast posted:

Bring back public penance. Bishops and policemen and politicians in sackcloth and ashes, fasting and begging passerby to pray for them.

Can't wait to see editor of the New Yorker throw out a Mod Challenge to a problematic novelist.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 05:42

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Morning Bell posted:

Can't wait to see editor of the New Yorker throw out a Mod Challenge to a problematic novelist.

I think this would be a great improvement in society.

Anyway, social media behavior - at least for people without the nuclear codes - just seems like this weird sideshow in a lot of cases. To try to make a big issue out of forgiveness of some hypothetical stranger who is disdained by someone else who the original poster is speaking to -- at a certain point there isn't really a relationship at all beyond "knowing they exist." Can you meaningfully forgive someone who is in that kind of a situation? Does it not kind of make the entire thing rather absurd?

# ? Feb 11, 2021 06:04

ThePopeOfFun: Feb 15, 2010

Morning Bell posted:

glamorising of the Us and dehumanising of the Person

It is better for an abuser to not have the means to abuse, just as it is good for the abused to attain relief from abuse.

Your posts read like they have an aversion to accountability. Can you clarify what you're getting at?

# ? Feb 11, 2021 06:21

Morning Bell: Feb 23, 2006; Illegal Hen

ThePopeOfFun posted:

Can you clarify what you're getting at?

We're real quick to judge others and condemn them, this seems really popular in our culture now, but we should watch ourselves - condemning people together with others feels so good that we can really get off it, act like self-righteous bullies, draw the world up into "us the good people" and "them the bad people". What I'm getting at that it's prudent to be careful that one doesn't turn into a monster while slaying monsters, and careful that our definition of who is a monster, who is an enemy, doesn't broaden to drat near everyone. This is speaking in general, not referring to some specific political spat. I don't think we should always forgive or let people who do awful stuff, abusers etc off the hook: reason I mull on this is because there are indeed monsters out there.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 06:42

ThePopeOfFun: Feb 15, 2010

Thanks. I appreciate you laying that out and agree on principal. The following is not an account of you, just where I'm at and how I react to the general idea and warning.

In practice, that line and caution gets trotted out when power feels threatened. At least it has in my experience. Whether confronting racism and whiteness in a church, bad leaders in a church, or even that Gamestop stock fiasco -- outlets were running stories on how bad Wall Street felt -- the gut reaction that springs up and voices a primary need for an abuser to be comforted or forgiven, in a moment of accountability, is a huge red flag for me. It makes me wonder, where is the carnal, gut reaction for the injured party? Why does accountability for certain power bring up such gut reactions?

I agree vengeance is the Lord's, and that thirst for revenge is as deadly as sin.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 07:39

Morning Bell: Feb 23, 2006; Illegal Hen

ThePopeOfFun posted:

Thanks. I appreciate you laying that out and agree on principal. The following is not an account of you, just where I'm at and how I react to the general idea and warning.

In practice, that line and caution gets trotted out when power feels threatened. At least it has in my experience. Whether confronting racism and whiteness in a church, bad leaders in a church, or even that Gamestop stock fiasco -- outlets were running stories on how bad Wall Street felt -- the gut reaction that springs up and voices a primary need for an abuser to be comforted or forgiven, in a moment of accountability, is a huge red flag for me. It makes me wonder, where is the carnal, gut reaction for the injured party? Why does accountability for certain power bring up such gut reactions?

I agree vengeance is the Lord's, and that thirst for revenge is as deadly as sin.

Thanks for clarifying and explaining your experience! That sounds infuriating, especially the example you gave confronting racists in a church and bad leaders (and I too threw up my hands in a "what the hell" at those 'poor wall street' articles). Someone who wields power bringing up "love and forgiveness and maybe I feel bad for being bad" only when caught out and held accountable for an awful act is a flag waving bright and red indeed - there's something downright insulting about such a despicable defence.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 09:52

ThePopeOfFun: Feb 15, 2010

So to bring it full circle, my interaction with those tweets is something more like, yes forgiveness is a core Christian practice, but I see grief, confession and repentance as MORE necessary Christian practices.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 09:58

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Good lord(s), how many ADHD folks are in this thread? I count 4, myself not included.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 10:29

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Tias posted:

Good lord(s), how many ADHD folks are in this thread? I count 4, myself not included.

I too deal with the ADHD, though my case is pretty mild and well-managed. It's the Generalized Anxiety Disorder that gives me trouble.

They tag team.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 13:21

Nth Doctor: Sep 7, 2010; Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

Night10194 posted:

I too deal with the ADHD, though my case is pretty mild and well-managed. It's the Generalized Anxiety Disorder that gives me trouble.

They tag team.

The depression for which I was in therapy for years? Primarily present thanks to the undiagnosed ADHD. Same with Mrs. Doctor's anxiety. She was so mad the therapist she had seen for years hadn't caught the ADHD that she found a new one over it.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 13:50

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

ThePopeOfFun posted:

So to bring it full circle, my interaction with those tweets is something more like, yes forgiveness is a core Christian practice, but I see grief, confession and repentance as MORE necessary Christian practices.

I would say that forgiveness is empty without grief, confession and repentance. Contrast Dante's Inferno with Purgatorio.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 14:51

ThePopeOfFun: Feb 15, 2010

Extremely relevant talk happening today from https://twitter.com/KyleJamesHoward. He's a baptist who left his church and many leadership positions there because of really really bad racism. He's now a trauma-informed counselor and posts a lot about toxic theology. He's recording a video on "Repentance vs. DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender)."

He also recorded a video about someone John Piper's ministry is giving platform to, who says empathy is a sin. Extremely worth watching, especially if you're used to hearing people source their arguments from Biblical texts. https://twitter.com/KyleJamesHoward/status/1359552447908298758?s=20 You know he's doing well when people Venmo him money to leave racist comments.

I've found a few voices on twitter, Bradly Mason included, who have been extremely helpful in figuring out why my church past and present gives me the heebie jeebies.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:13

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

How the hecc could EMPATHY be a sin. I could see how like, it could become pathological, or how you could have behavior that vaguely resembles empathy but is actually harmful to yourself and others, but the core idea?

# ? Feb 11, 2021 20:09

ThePopeOfFun: Feb 15, 2010

Nessus posted:

How the hecc could EMPATHY be a sin. I could see how like, it could become pathological, or how you could have behavior that vaguely resembles empathy but is actually harmful to yourself and others, but the core idea?

There's some WILDNESS coming out into the open that's always been there quietly. You can dig into those tweets and find the specific claims. I don't really care to give it air here. Needless to say, lots of denominations are in rupture. Cythereal has spoken to the Southern Baptist Convention, but they're particularly coming to a head. I'd say the PCA is also on the way there, but they have more hierarchy, tradition and roots so it'll be slower.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 20:37

TOOT BOOT: May 25, 2010

It never ceases to amaze me just how often Christians can miss the point entirely.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 03:25

White Coke: May 29, 2015

My father is going in for surgery tomorrow to have a tumor removed from his remaining adrenal gland, please pray for him.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 03:37

Nth Doctor: Sep 7, 2010; Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

White Coke posted:

My father is going in for surgery tomorrow to have a tumor removed from his remaining adrenal gland, please pray for him.

Greatest physician, guide his surgeon's hands.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 13:23

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

ᛖᛄᚱ, at ᛗᛖᚾᛚᛡᛞs knee, give White Cokes father and his doctors healing hands throughout their lives.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 13:41

BattyKiara: Mar 17, 2009

White Coke posted:

My father is going in for surgery tomorrow to have a tumor removed from his remaining adrenal gland, please pray for him.

I'll take your father to my silent meeting today. May he find healing and a speedy recovery!

# ? Feb 12, 2021 14:20

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

White Coke posted:

My father is going in for surgery tomorrow to have a tumor removed from his remaining adrenal gland, please pray for him.

God be with him.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 14:56

TOOT BOOT: May 25, 2010

I think everything will probably be okay but I'd appreciate prayers for our new cat Rocky. We took him in off the street a couple days ago because he was limping pretty badly. He had been hanging out around our property for like six months. During the course of an extremely lengthy vet visit they determined that what they thought was a broken leg was a very infected bite wound, probably from another male cat.

I can't help but be anxious about it because we took a different cat in on New Year's Eve and she got very sick and died literally the next day and it was heartbreaking.

# ? Feb 12, 2021 23:43

White Coke: May 29, 2015

TOOT BOOT posted:

I think everything will probably be okay but I'd appreciate prayers for our new cat Rocky. We took him in off the street a couple days ago because he was limping pretty badly. He had been hanging out around our property for like six months. During the course of an extremely lengthy vet visit they determined that what they thought was a broken leg was a very infected bite wound, probably from another male cat.

I can't help but be anxious about it because we took a different cat in on New Year's Eve and she got very sick and died literally the next day and it was heartbreaking.

I just had a cat go through a health scare last month. I'll make sure to pray for Rocky.

# ? Feb 13, 2021 00:04

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Dad's back from the hospital. He had to stay overnight because his blood pressure spiked twice during the surgery. They saved the adrenal gland, but we don't yet know if it's still functional.

# ? Feb 14, 2021 03:44

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Morning Bell posted:

Sounds like a good way to wash one's hands. "Yeah, my friends and compatriots hounded that [bad journalist, whatever] until they got fired, but I actually have forgiven them as a forgiving person, we just haven't forgiven as a group, namaste, praying 4 my haters."

It's absolutely reasonable to say "we will not forgive such-and-such enemy, even if they ask for it, we must destroy them or they'll destroy us, and that is not immoral", but in the subtext in the last couple of pages of this here religionthread-forgiveness-chat I reckon there's a little bit of hemming and hedging�about how we are forgiving people who like forgiveness, but just not right now, forgiveness rocks we do it all the time when nobody's looking, forgiveness is contingent on this-or-that and so I'm not being unforgiving it's just there are 50 genres of forgiveness and some are bad. "There is a cultural war going on, forgiving such-and-such enemies is going to ruin us and others, we'd be idiots to forgive, the world might be improved if we unforgivingly hunt and condemn this or that," is a sentiment that's maybe being danced around. One way such a statement might interact with Elizabeth Bruenig's tweets is to consider just who these unforgivable�enemies are.

"Cancellation" and harassment are different things. I don't think that hounding someone like that is right, but a public outcry and demanding that a person (eg) propogating dangerous ideas or sexually harassing people be removed from a place of authority is good and important for the pursuit of a just society.

Forgiveness is the thing for the person who was wronged to do. In the example of the bad journalist, the person who was lied or targeted is the one who can forgive. But that the victim forgives doesn't mean that the bad person shouldn't face other forms of accountability. I can't forgive someone for something that had consequences far removed from me.

That's the distinction I mean when I say that individuals can forgive, but the public has a different relationship because of society's obligation to protect the weak and vulnerable.

# ? Feb 14, 2021 06:01

WrenP-Complete: Jul 27, 2012

https://twitter.com/wren_p_complete/status/1361017131618328579?s=19

WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Feb 15, 2021

# ? Feb 14, 2021 19:27

Zazz Razzamatazz: Apr 19, 2016; by sebmojo

I'll admit, I haven't been following the thread lately- but I just saw this again and thought I'd share it with you all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locW-9S00VU

I'm not Orthodox, but wow! This always gives me chills.

# ? Feb 15, 2021 00:28

TOOT BOOT: May 25, 2010

The comments on that are amazing as far as the diversity of people represented. It feels like the whole world is represented in the top 100 comments.

# ? Feb 15, 2021 01:19

Thirteen Orphans: Dec 2, 2012; I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

TOOT BOOT posted:

The comments on that are amazing as far as the diversity of people represented. It feels like the whole world is represented in the top 100 comments.

And apparently everybody�s crying, even the atheists.

# ? Feb 15, 2021 01:54

Crazy Joe Wilson: Jul 4, 2007; Justifiably Mad!

Praying for all requests mentioned on this page.

# ? Feb 16, 2021 00:45

PantlessBadger: May 7, 2008

Zazz Razzamatazz posted:

I'll admit, I haven't been following the thread lately- but I just saw this again and thought I'd share it with you all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locW-9S00VU

I'm not Orthodox, but wow! This always gives me chills.

Reminded me of one of my favourite Eastern pieces on YouTube (apart from my local OCA's livestreams of Great Vespers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14yPV2fIJjQ

Which leads to another famous Tallis piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI5Y9l2NHIo

and finally, something topical, this is from the parish of Great S. Bart's in London, and is a musical setting of the Book of Common Prayer's Prayer in time of common sickness or plague which was removed from a lot of modern prayer books, but in Canada, we luckily had a Prayer Book authorized in 1918 in the midst of the Spanish Flu and it was preserved there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELT3NTkYZ0w&t=3s

Apparently I'm a dork that just likes to sing in church a lot.

# ? Feb 17, 2021 14:57

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# ? Apr 16, 2024 15:42

Thirteen Orphans: Dec 2, 2012; I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

A coin set of the corpus of sigils from the Key of Solomon. I thought some folks in the thread might find them interesting.

# ? Feb 18, 2021 03:48

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

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