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I mean, it's an opinion. It's not the weirdest take I've seen, tbh.
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Feb 4, 2021 18:38
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lmao trying to  Berserk.At least its not actually going full on Griffith Did Nothing Wrong.
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Feb 4, 2021 21:47
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I'd be okay with Guts deciding to move on and not go on with the cycle of revenge, but SOMEONE has to ice that motherfucker Griffith. Maybe Caska.
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Feb 4, 2021 22:13
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Truly the best comeuppance is his own creation turning on him, he chased the castle on the hill got it, to lose it because those below him could no longer allow him to stand on their corpses would be good. Guts and Caska can watch it burn from afar. The fact that the moon child is Griffith tho says to me they're gonna have to have a confrontation. I spoilered some thoughts on the last page about that.
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Feb 4, 2021 23:12
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If anyone is chafing between chapters, I highly recommend the book "Between Two Fires" by Christopher Buehlman. It's possibly the most Berserk-esque book I've ever read, to the point that I was sure some sections were direct homages. It's historical fantasy, and the author has done a poo poo ton of research into medieval France, so it doesn't seem derivative at all. I read a ton of fantasy and this is one of the best in a long time. It's also self contained so you get the whole story, conflict, backstory, arcs, everything, in one volume. Some great economy of storytelling.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:47
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A story with an ending? I don't know if that's very Berserk-esque.
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Feb 10, 2021 23:48
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temple posted:Outside of the whole casca thing, guts and griffith are equal in "badness". Its just we see the story from guts pov so we sympathize when he kills children or assaults women. I think the story is about avoiding moral judgement and the potential for good/bad in everyone. Guts's whole narrative is currently about overcoming his inner demon. The only difference between guts and griffith is guts never had any hope to manipulate. Bisse fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 15:25
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The last time Guts killed a kid the kid was a rape demon who turned other kids into rape demons.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:28
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Which is very morally ambiguous! Would you MURDER A BABY if the baby is also a horrendous rape demon with kill count in the hundreds? I dunno, makes you think.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:47
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A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. Griffith never got an arc like that. I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends. Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:21
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temple posted:A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. Griffith never got an arc like that. I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends. Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:24
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"Guts has killed the same amount of people as Griffith" - beyond the fact that that seems likely untrue (the leader of a mercenary band is going to have more on his plate than the single mercenary which they've repeatedly shown with the trail of bones to the castle), the reasons for them doing so are vastly different and not equivalent. What in the god drat indeed. Griffith isn't getting a redemptive arc, his form as the restored child of Casca and Guts might get a happy ending, but there is no way that comes without the end of Femto and Griffith's ambitions.
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Feb 11, 2021 17:21
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temple posted:A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. Griffith never got an arc like that. I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends. Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative. Are you seriously using Guts leaving the Band of the Hawk as a mark against Guts?
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Feb 11, 2021 18:20
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temple posted:If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. griffith immediately self destructed in a fit of pique at guts not subsuming himself to griffith's dream, and has spent the subsequent years propagating amoral murder rape demons in order to herd humanity into a childish dream kingdom where every element of society spotlights directly onto him something tells me that there might have been underlying character flaws which would have precluded a happy ending in the event guts stayed. almost like... it was a fated outcome
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Feb 11, 2021 18:50
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Killing demons/demon possessed people is not the same as what Griffith does, hth
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Feb 11, 2021 18:58
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Why did Guts make Griffith hit him?
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Feb 11, 2021 19:06
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:griffith immediately self destructed in a fit of pique at guts not subsuming himself to griffith's dream, and has spent the subsequent years propagating amoral murder rape demons in order to herd humanity into a childish dream kingdom where every element of society spotlights directly onto him At least it is true that man has no control, even over his own will.
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Feb 11, 2021 19:21
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:griffith immediately self destructed in a fit of pique at guts not subsuming himself to griffith's dream, and has spent the subsequent years propagating amoral murder rape demons in order to herd humanity into a childish dream kingdom where every element of society spotlights directly onto him Yeah the story is very clear in that Griffith was going down that road, even without demon powers or whatever.
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Feb 11, 2021 19:21
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I mean, Griffith's whole thing prior to the Eclipse was that he still on some level struggled with justifying all the horrible things he had to do to obtain his dream. He still remembered the little boy he found dead after a battle still grasping his toy knight even up to the Eclipse, he was literally ripping his skin off and asking Casca if she considered him "filthy" for selling his body to a noble to fund the Hawks, and after he burns the Queen of Midland and her conspirators to death and has Guts double cross the thugs he hired to blackmail Foss he asks Guts if he thinks it was all a bit too brutal. And what's interesting is that instead of rebuke for his actions he gets affirmation: Casca responds by telling Griffith she'll follow him no matter what he does, and Guts tells him that worrying about getting his hands dirty is out of character for Griffith and he should just focus on obtaining his dream. Hell, part of the reason Guts leaves the Hawks is that he recognizes Casca is on some level right about him distracting Griffith from his dream. None of this justifies what Griffith did at all - this is not a "Griffith did nothing wrong" post dear god - but it makes sense that from Griffith's own perspective following through with the Eclipse and sacrificing the Hawks to continue to march towards his dream was not only the right thing to do, it followed the advice that his fellow Hawks had themselves given him time and again.
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Feb 11, 2021 20:06
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At times I've thought Griffith might get some redemption that still involves him dying. But it's hard to say. He's basically the epitome of arrogance and ambition. Perhaps the world he created in Falconia is better than how Midland was, but hasn't he killed a huge portion of humanity by creating it and leaving the rest to fight off the supernatural? He's a monster, plain and simple, so the only thing that can really redeem him at this point is that his body is some sort of amalgamation of his consciousness and Guts and Caska's child.
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Feb 11, 2021 20:36
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It's also pretty clear that by creating a utopia in Falconia and then unleashing hell on the rest of Earth, Griffith and the God Hand are trying to gather all of humanity together in one place, presumably for an even bigger sacrifice.
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Feb 11, 2021 21:34
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temple posted:A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. Griffith never got an arc like that. I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends.  Man you're broke brained as gently caress temple posted:Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative. quote:It's also pretty clear that by creating a utopia in Falconia and then unleashing hell on the rest of Earth, Griffith and the God Hand are trying to gather all of humanity together in one place, presumably for an even bigger sacrifice. Bisse fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 00:52
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I think that we have a more expansive or confirmed motivation for skull Knight means we'll soon be seeing why this was all voids game all along.
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Feb 12, 2021 01:21
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Man this post is so bad that it deserves a detailed takedown. Every single line here is just so wrong it blows the mind and the retinasquote:A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. quote:Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. quote:Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. quote:Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. quote:People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. - being angry about demons killing your friends and deciding to kill demons for revenge is in any way remotely comparable to - sacrificing your entire clan of devoted followers to The Mouths Of Hell to turn yourself into winged blood-leather satan? There are morally justifiable and morally unjustifiable forms of and reasons for selfishness. Here we have a person sacrificing everyone who's ever followed him to gruesome death so he can become a God King of his fantasy toy kingdom, and on the other hand a survivor of mass murder who is trying to parse his emotions after seeing all his loved ones eaten by hell beasts and his right eye's last sight being his past leader rewarding Guts saving him from a torture dungeon and fighting to give him a future again by raping his loved one to death with clawed tentacles as hell beasts gnaw on his limbs. quote:Griffith never got an arc like that. quote:I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends. On that note. Miura goes to great lengths to make Griffiths actions logical conclusions of his experiences and learnings. In some ways, his evil sacrifice is the end point of things the characters around him has told him, actions that he had taken and then has had validated by others, experiences he has had of support in his selfish quest. Then, a year of torture ripping all his dreams away, and finally a chance to win them back. As the evil ghastly floating face from the loving Murder And Hell Dimension told him - in the middle of a cataclysmic event summoned by the wrathful hellscream of an ancient grotesque artifact, containing red skies lined with bleeding faces and all the demons of the world ready to feast on the flesh of his followers - isn't this in some way what the Band of the Hawk would have wanted? Didn't they fight with you for this, and tell you repeatedly to do this? Sure! But Miura also goes to great lengths to show that this is not a reasonable logical action that follows from the others. Miura makes a very clear connection not with logic or morality, but instead, with fate. The events that happened to Griffith, and the person that Griffith is, conjoined to make him take this decision willingly. But it was not because it was the right thing to do, or a sane logical thing to do. Instead, it was because this was an event planned by a dark force for hundreds of years, a perfectly manufactured moment in time crafted to convince the exact level of selfish and evil person to do the unbelievable. Griffith is not a logical person, and he is not doing what's right. Rather, he is the perfectly molded selfish evil entity supplied with the exact necessary ingredient to commit the most evil act imaginable. quote:Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative. Bisse fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 02:25
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Griffith: Hey, Guts, Casca. Long time no see. Just dropping in to see if I feel any remorse about killing all our friends and raping you. Turns out I don't! Anyway, bye.
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Feb 12, 2021 02:32
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Literally drunk right now as a direct result of how dumb that post was. What in the goddamn indeed
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Feb 12, 2021 03:09
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Bisse posted:The difference between Guts and Griffith is intent. Guts aims to kill bad demons because they kill good humans. Griffith intends to kill good humans and summon bad demons because he wants to be the centre of attention of everyone in the world. Guts doesn't always get the best outcome or make the perfect choice, but as far as intent goes, it's like comparing Hitler with Wolfenstein guy. Is Wolfenstein Guy a bad person because he kills nazis? Are his feelings of revenge towards Hitler justified? Does wanting to end the holocaust and prevent the Nazis from taking over the world justify all this nazi killing? Was Nazi murder #1882 really strictly necessary? What about that Nazi he killed over there, maybe he could have become a good person tomorrow? Really makes you think. The godhand intervened on Griffith's and Guts behalf at the final battle against Judah. Guts was disarmed and should have died until Zodd threw his sword to Guts. The events are less about Griffith's nefarious plan to rule the world and more about how the godhand manipulated fate to place all the right players together to merge the material and spiritual world. Griffith made the choice in the end but it was a carefully constructed by outside forces. Guts knew what would happen if he accept the ride from the old man and his daughter the night they were killed. He even warned them. His intent was pretty selfish and literally the whole blackswordsman arc is about Guts being the hugest rear end in a top hat humanly possible. I have to preface recommending this manga with "Guts starts an rear end in a top hat but there is a reason for it." My point isn't reposition Guts and Griffith but to say that Griffith is a victim to godhand in some of the same ways as everyone else. The godhand are the true villains. Morally, Guts and Griffith are equivalent in many ways. That's why I love this manga so much because its so nuanced and profound. Miura really gets the human spirit and when people reduce it good guys and bad guys, its cheapens it. temple fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 03:21
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My god dude
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Feb 12, 2021 03:27
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temple posted:Guts knew what would happen if he accept the ride from the old man and his daughter the night they were killed. He even warned them. His intent was pretty selfish and literally the whole blackswordsman arc is about Guts being the hugest rear end in a top hat humanly possible. I have to preface recommending this manga with "Guts starts an rear end in a top hat but there is a reason for it." My point isn't reposition Guts and Griffith but to say that Griffith is a victim to godhand in some of the same ways as everyone else. The godhand are the true villains. Morally, Guts and Griffith are equivalent in many ways. That's why I love this manga so much because its so nuanced and profound. Miura really gets the human spirit and when people reduce it good guys and bad guys, its cheapens it. Griffith is such a victim of the Godhand they declared him their personal messiah and raised him to godhood and then gave him a kingdom dedicated to venerating him. Griffith is a member of the Godhand. He raped Casca out of spite towards Guts. He happily let the rest of the Falcons be slaughtered. He is a bad guy. Only a complete lunatic would think that Guts and Griffith are anywhere near one another morally.
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Feb 12, 2021 03:32
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I mean the central point of this argument is "Are Guts and Griffith morally equivalient in some ways" and, sure, while the manga plays with this theme a lot during the Golden Age and while none of them could predict future events, I think that the central event that conclusively determines the answer to this question is, when the choice finally through cosmic intervention does arise of 'How about sacrificing all these people and drinking their blood to become God King' is presented, Guts is like 'No Griffith don't do it', and Griffith is like 'Yes, let's do it'. (Would Guts have reacted differently if he was in Griffith's shoes? No, because Guts' reaction to his fellows dying is anger and sadness, while Griffith's reaction is to thank them for their blood. Just to further clarify: Guts is not most angry at the prospect of him dying, but at the prospect of everyone else dying. That is where the difference is!) The funny thing about that is it exposes the very core moral difference between the two characters and puts all their past actions in different lights. It shows that while Guts and Griffith both did some similar things, Guts ultimately did it out of some level of care for others, while Griffith ultimately merely used others for entirely selfish reasons. Like I can't believe I have to write this out in plain text, but sure, let's play along with the dumbest internet discussion presented so far in the year 2021. Like I agree with you that this manga is fascinating and Miura has a masterful grip on the human condition, and this manga has a lot of shades of gray, I'll even agree with you that its a massive disservice to Miura's writing to boil most of the manga down to good versus evil, but not in this spot!!!! not here!!! no!!! this is not where the ambiguity is!!!! this is where the clarity is!!!!!!! what the gently caress are you doing my dude!!!!! oh my god!!! Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 03:39
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Bisse posted:I mean the central point of this argument is "Are Guts and Griffith morally equivalient in some ways" and, sure, while the manga plays with this theme a lot and while none of them could predict future events, I think that the central event that conclusively determines the answer to this question is, when the choice finally through cosmic intervention does arise of 'How about sacrificing all these people and drinking their blood to become God King' is presented, Guts is like 'No Griffith don't do it', and Griffith is like 'Yes, let's do it'. (Would Guts have reacted differently if he was in Griffith's shoes? No, because Guts' reaction to his fellows dying is anger and sadness, while Griffith's reaction is to thank them for their blood) I Don't agree with the other guy at all but saying Guts did what he did out of care for others is also a bit obtuse. The black Swordsman Arc and the lost children arc is about revenge. Guts doesn't care about anyone or anything, only his lust for blood. Even killing apostles is just a means to an end, he hunts them down to get closer to the godhand, not out of any sense of duty to the world. It's only after he returns to Godo and realizes how consumed by his hatred he has become, and that its lead him down a path to casting away his humanity that he finds a renewed sense of purpose. Even the artwork of guts during the lost children arc paints him as this horrible monster seeking bloodshed and destruction. The conviction arc was all about Guts actually finding something to live for, instead of throwing his mind and body away into dangerous massacres. he decides, of his own volition, to protect something dear to him. Before that he had fully become the mad dog casca always said he was.
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Feb 12, 2021 03:53
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Agreed, that's a very sensible post to be honest, and yes, Guts isn't always a Good Person. He has his bad moments. But is he a better person than Griffith? Yes. Are his bad moments as bad as Griffith's bad moments? No. Are his motivations more morally justifiable than Griffith's motivations? Yes. We can call Guts conflicted and morally turbulent, or ambiguous. We can do the same for Griffith. That does not make them anywhere near morally equivalent. They're not even the same galaxy of morality. We're talking #878787 vs #010101 on the grey scale.
Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 04:02
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Guts abandoned the hawks and later casca at her most fragile. She wasn't opposed to him after the eclipse. He even tried to crush his baby. Casca wasn't against guts until he literally chained her up and dragged her across snow. He left her because she reminded him of his trauma. Which is really genius how now that casca has come to, she can't be around guts because he reminds her of the trauma. The idea that guts is some caring person is pure revisionism. He's not a hero, he's an anti-hero for most of the story. temple fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 04:07
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temple posted:The idea that guts is some caring person is pure revisionism. Griffith: Yes Guts: Yes Would let innocents get harmed in pursuit of his goals: Griffith: Yes Guts: Yes Gets lost in emotions and commits bad acts: Griffith: Yes Guts: Yes Would sacrifice all his loved ones to become God King: Griffith: Yes Guts: No Would throw hell upon earth: Griffith: Yes Guts: No Cares more about being the center of attention than anything else in the world: Griffith: Yes Guts: No Using the argument that neither are saints therefore they must both be equal is extremely far up the own arse after just pointing out that this is a nuanced manga that deals with greyscales. In such a manga you can have an anti-hero who is, in fact, a better person than the person who causes the apocalypse. Characters can commit similar acts but they can be morally different because one is dealing with trauma caused by the other. Characters can commit similar acts but they can be morally different because their ulterior motivations are completely different. No amount of listing bad things that Guts did can put him anywhere near Griffith on the morality scale because of the level of no-good very-very-bad things that Griffith did. You're saying Guts d..dragged a woman in chains over snow because he didn't know a better way of how to handle their trauma and out of a misplaced sense of care? You're s-s-saying he tried to kill a child because it looked demonic? Someone drew a bad painting of him?? Why yes, that's almost, almost, on the same level as condemning all of earth so you can play fairy king with toy knights. You'd have to be broke brained to see Griffith and Guts as similar after reading through the Eclipse and even more broke brained to persist in this interpretation after reading through the world being consumed by darkness. I feel like you're attached to your extremely bad read of the morality of these two characters and looking for flaws in one to try to match him up towards the other. Your read is wrong and your arguments are inhuman and shows a wild, deep misunderstanding of morality. I'm sorry! There is moral ambiguity in this manga, but not here, not where you are looking for it. Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 04:15
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Guts is, overall, a caring person who spends a good portion of the story trying extremely hard not to be caring because of the trauma caring exposed him to during the Eclipse. Pictured: An uncaring person. 
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Feb 12, 2021 04:32
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I agree that guts never used a behelit to sacrifice his friends therefore is a more moral person than griffith. I guess we can close this case.
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Feb 12, 2021 04:53
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This has been pretty fun to read!
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Feb 12, 2021 04:57
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I am thinking that Griffith will get the being John malkovic ending and be locked in the body of eclipse child for all time, no longer able to interact with the world. Who ever earlier said that Guts v Zodd will be the ultimate fight probably has it correct.
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Feb 12, 2021 05:45
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This is only tangentially related but I like posting this page of Berserk because it's the page where Guts' tipping point is reached and he slowly but surely becomes a better person. Where his priorities shift fully from getting revenge on Griffith to ensuring Casca's safety. It's a really good page, super on point imagery.
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Feb 12, 2021 05:53
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 09:55 |
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I don't really see a reason to label Griffith as irredeemable until the story is finished. The characters and their morality has changed so much from the start, who's to say it won't change more.
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Feb 12, 2021 07:22
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