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Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Superman specifically does not ignore the backlash he gets. It bothers him to the point he almost quits in BvS.

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Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Man of Steel is absolutely a power fantasy, and the grotesque material and social consequences of Superman exerting his power only heightens and enhances the power fantasy.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Superman's a power fantasy because (as discussed in BvS) he has absolute power over what he wants to do with his life. He wants to save people from burning buildings? He can. He wants to blow it all off and go hiking? Nothing simpler. He wants to quit his job? He can sleep under the stars every night, anywhere he wants on earth. He doesn't need money, he doesn't need shelter, he may not even need food. He's the ultimate expression of what libertarians pretend everyone is, a true free agent. And also he can fly

brawleh
Feb 25, 2011

I figured out why the hippo did it.

ImpAtom posted:

Again, this really doesn't mesh because this argument would suggest Batman is almost never a power fantasy. It's just a different kind of power fantasy. The Punisher is also a power fantasy and he is a literal violent sociopath vigilante who does all those things and is known for killing. Even in versions where he is portrayed as his most broken and awful it still goes out of its way to show how cool he is when he kills people and works to give the viewer a sense of satisfaction when he murders the Real Bad Guys. You're not removing the power fantasy by having Batman kill people, you're just shifting it even more over to the Punisher then most modern Batman already is.

I am not saying this is a wrong interpretation of Batman. It is absolutely not and certainly the "billionare who beats up poor people" thing has gotten worse and worse over the years. But it absolutely is a power fantasy and even the elements of being broken or hosed up don't prevent it from being a fantasy when it plays so hard into those elements.


All this power fantasy crap aside, is this just another re-run of Batman Doesn't Kill again? because goddamnit.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

ImpAtom posted:

"Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go."

So?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Guy A. Person posted:

Snyder did not put prison rape in a super hero movie, he used it in a interview as an example of a “dark” story you could do in a setting such as the Watchmen universe.

At a certain point you’re asking the guy to apologize for mentioning the fact that prison rape is a thing that exists in too flippant a manner

The issue isn't that he mentioned it as a thing, it is that he specifically said it would be something he would include in a 'dark' Batman movie.


Guy A. Person posted:

Like ImpAtom, someone said they liked the Flash and you said “you mean the character played by a woman assaulter!?

What are you trying to accomplish here if not making people feel morally wrong for liking the wrong brand of super hero movies

I'm not trying to accomplish anything? Like I don't have some Big End Goal Here. I just like discussing things. If I had one wish related to the Snyder Cut it would be to get Leto removed from the movie so I could watch it and not feel so crappy about it but that ain't happening on the SA forums so it's mostly discussion. if I let some of my anger at the Leto thing leak into other things I apologize for that, but it's a pretty sore spot for me.

brawleh posted:

All this power fantasy crap aside, is this just another re-run of Batman Doesn't Kill again? because goddamnit.

No? Batman and The Punisher are just very similar concepts. Batman's "doesn't kill" thing separates him from the Punisher but it isn't like Batman is a great concept even with it. "He kills" is a pretty minor thing to add onto "An extremely wealthy white billionare uses his enormous wealth to terrorize people" as far as those things go. Batman as a member of the Justice League these days is something I find a lot easier to enjoy than Batman as a vigilante crime fighter. (And yes, Iron man also sucks and while I enjoyed Iron Man 3 as a film it's much harder/impossible to watch these days both in concept and because the director is a shithead guy who hires abusers.)

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Feb 15, 2021

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
For the record, if we do want to discuss a superhero film that features graphic prisoner abuse, the Wachowski Sibling's V for Vendetta is right there.

ImpAtom posted:

I'm not trying to accomplish anything? Like I don't have some Big End Goal Here. I just like discussing things. If I had one wish related to the Snyder Cut it would be to get Leto removed from the movie so I could watch it and not feel so crappy about it but that ain't happening on the SA forums so it's mostly discussion.

I do feel this. :/

josh04
Oct 19, 2008


"THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"

This title contains sponsored content.

2house2fly posted:

Superman's a power fantasy because (as discussed in BvS) he has absolute power over what he wants to do with his life. He wants to save people from burning buildings? He can. He wants to blow it all off and go hiking? Nothing simpler. He wants to quit his job? He can sleep under the stars every night, anywhere he wants on earth. He doesn't need money, he doesn't need shelter, he may not even need food. He's the ultimate expression of what libertarians pretend everyone is, a true free agent. And also he can fly

Flying is cool but the rest of this is instilling a deep, primal apprehension in me?

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

ImpAtom posted:

The issue isn't that he mentioned it as a thing, it is that he specifically said it would be something he would include in a 'dark' Batman movie.

Like in the movie with Batman in it that people say is very dark, right?

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

Snyder's also perfectly willing to cut abusers from his movies. Tig Notaro replaced Chris D'Elia in Army of the Dead after the stuff about him surfaced. Having Leto and Miller in Justice League is unfortunate, and if this was a one-off production rather than the capstone of a franchise Snyder's spent years working on, he might recast them too.

well why not
Feb 10, 2009




ImpAtom posted:

The issue isn't that he mentioned it as a thing, it is that he specifically said it would be something he would include in a 'dark' Batman movie.


but he did not do that ...

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

ImpAtom posted:

Have you ever heard of The X-Men? Being an outsider who is rejected by society but having the power to ignore that is totally a power fantasy. Even the melodrama and angst that goes with it is part of the fantasy. If it wasn't then nobody would want to be any of the X-Men, even ignoring the fact the majority of them are superpowerful supermodels.

It'd call it privilege more than a power fantasy. But I'd argue he's not empowered in those scenes. He's physically strong, yes, but the commentary is shown to beat him down. If it were a power fantasy then he'd go for a fun fly, all smiles, to some uplifting music. He has the power to ignore it but doesn't. This is why I really do reject these Objectivist readings because they're antithetical to the visual language being used.

Schwarzwald posted:

For the record, if we do want to discuss a superhero film that features graphic prisoner abuse, the Wachowski Sibling's V for Vendetta is right there.

It does lead up to a badass scene of him standing in its burning ruins yelling in a primal fury.

And yeah, I wish Leto wasn't in it and I say this as someone who dug that adaptation of the Joker. He should have been recast. It's disappointing because he replaced that one dipshit with Tig Notaro in Army of the Dead. Not much you can do with Ezra Miller because all that was shot already but if there's a sequel or a Flash film, I hope he gets replaced.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

ImpAtom posted:

The issue isn't that he mentioned it as a thing, it is that he specifically said it would be something he would include in a 'dark' Batman movie.

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment, he’s talking about the Watchmen setting to contrast Nolan’s movies. He’s also had the opportunity to make this movie and it doesn’t seem like a thing that will happen in the R rated ZSJL.

quote:

I'm not trying to accomplish anything? Like I don't have some Big End Goal Here. I just like discussing things. If I had one wish related to the Snyder Cut it would be to get Leto removed from the movie so I could watch it and not feel so crappy about it but that ain't happening on the SA forums so it's mostly discussion. if I let some of my anger at the Leto thing leak into other things I apologize for that, but it's a pretty sore spot for me.

Well then I apologize. I do think the Flash thing was a bit confrontational but in the end NBD

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Robot Style posted:

Snyder's also perfectly willing to cut abusers from his movies. Tig Notaro replaced Chris D'Elia in Army of the Dead after the stuff about him surfaced. Having Leto and Miller in Justice League is unfortunate, and if this was a one-off production rather than the capstone of a franchise Snyder's spent years working on, he might recast them too.

I can understand this argument for Heard and Miller but he specifically hired Leto for new scenes that weren't in the original cut. That is a big part of why this is frustrating. "Cut Joker Scene included" is eh but at least doesn't involve actively going out of your way to do it. I should probably drop it but it's absolutely a sticking point for me so I'll try to avoid bringing it up if I can. Sorry for being an rear end in this thread.

Robot Style posted:

Snyder's also perfectly willing to cut abusers from his movies. Tig Notaro replaced Chris D'Elia in Army of the Dead after the stuff about him surfaced. Having Leto and Miller in Justice League is unfortunate, and if this was a one-off production rather than the capstone of a franchise Snyder's spent years working on, he might recast them too.

Well, we'll see. I know there's a lot of hope that if the Snyder Cut does well we might actually see a Part 2. I'd be down for it if it meant A) Ray Fisher gets more work and B) Those Other People don't.

Guy A. Person posted:

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment, he’s talking about the Watchmen setting to contrast Nolan’s movies. He’s also had the opportunity to make this movie and it doesn’t seem like a thing that will happen in the R rated ZSJL.


Well then I apologize. I do think the Flash thing was a bit confrontational but in the end NBD

Nah, you were right to call me out. That was a lovely response from me and I am sorry to anyone who that made feel crappy.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

josh04 posted:

Flying is cool but the rest of this is instilling a deep, primal apprehension in me?

Yeah and it owns.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

A big distinction is that, unfortunately, the Leto and Miller stuff seems to have not really been picked up in a major way like D'Ellia's accusations were. Gal Gadot I'm sure everyone is just going "Alright, just don't do what that Mandalorian actress did" and Amber Heard's whole thing probably comes across as "He said, she said" poo poo to a lot of people.

well why not
Feb 10, 2009




I'm sure we'd all prefer Leto removed, for sure. Even if ZS wanted Leto out, it's probably not quite as easy to replace or recast Jared Leto as it is Chris D'Elia. Leto is a full-on A-Lister and I'm pretty sure D'Elia wrote parts of his own Wikipedia page.

hump day bitches!
Apr 3, 2011


It still mystifies me how people cant wrap their heads around the idea that people have different tastes about movies (and art in general ) and what makes them good.

All knowledge is community based, the earliest you face this the easier it’s going to be.That includes which movies are “good” and which are “bad” , who won the election and who lost and what’s the best flavour of chocolate.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

Listen here, if you don't think Cadbury milk chocolate isn't the best chocolate then you're no good pieces of filth. If you think Hershey's is the best then you're an Objectivist, objectively!

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005


The simplest trick, one that too many people seem unable to follow, is when you get caught being horrible, you just shut the gently caress up and let people forget about it. Miller, Gadot, Leto all seem to have that sort of basic understanding, or at least have people who have told them to keep their mouths shut and let time wipe things away.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
It's Lindor and I will fight you all bare handed

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



hump day bitches! posted:

It still mystifies me how people cant wrap their heads around the idea that people have different tastes about movies (and art in general ) and what makes them good.

All knowledge is community based, the earliest you face this the easier it’s going to be.That includes which movies are “good” and which are “bad” , who won the election and who lost and what’s the best flavour of chocolate.

Exactly.

I have a bit extreme tastes in music going hard into death, black, and thrash metal. A lot of people don’t like it but that’s fine. As long as they aren’t judging me as a person for liking it then it’s cool. But also as long they aren’t also going it’s trash garbage music that sounds like poo poo and it’s better off not in this world.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008


"THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"

This title contains sponsored content.

Ferrinus posted:

Yeah and it owns.

Oh, I agree.

Roth posted:

A big distinction is that, unfortunately, the Leto and Miller stuff seems to have not really been picked up in a major way like D'Ellia's accusations were. Gal Gadot I'm sure everyone is just going "Alright, just don't do what that Mandalorian actress did" and Amber Heard's whole thing probably comes across as "He said, she said" poo poo to a lot of people.

Heard is benefitting from Johnny Depp betting big on getting a court to pronounce him not-abusive. The opposite happened.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

I looked up Ezra Miller's chokeslam story and got a result from Variety claiming that bar staff told them that the fan had been extra pushy and an argument started with no real elaboration beyond that.

That probably reads to a lot of people that Miller was either in the right, or there's not enough detail to say for sure.

Superrodan
Nov 27, 2007

hump day bitches! posted:

It still mystifies me how people cant wrap their heads around the idea that people have different tastes about movies (and art in general ) and what makes them good.

Yeah. When I was younger I would always fall into the trap of "If you don't like [thing I like] you probably weren't smart enough, or didn't understand what it was trying to do". Sometimes I just really don't like a thing others seem to like (High Rise). And sometimes I really like a thing most people don't (Michael Bay's The Island)

brawleh
Feb 25, 2011

I figured out why the hippo did it.

ImpAtom posted:

No? Batman and The Punisher are just very similar concepts. Batman's "doesn't kill" thing separates him from the Punisher but it isn't like Batman is a great concept even with it. "He kills" is a pretty minor thing to add onto "An extremely wealthy white billionare uses his enormous wealth to terrorize people" as far as those things go. Batman as a member of the Justice League these days is something I find a lot easier to enjoy than Batman as a vigilante crime fighter. (And yes, Iron man also sucks and while I enjoyed Iron Man 3 as a film it's much harder/impossible to watch these days both in concept and because the director is a shithead guy who hires abusers.)

It’s just a weird arbitrary line that you’ve drawn here is all, like this power fantasy framework or whatever seemingly just jettisons narrative, characterization and the relationship between the two. To the point where it’s not even talking about Snyder’s interpretation of The Bat, but vague ideas of what the characters are more generally - though even then there's problems. Where killing moves Batman towards Punisher on the comics alignment chart, but Batman has been killing longer than the Punisher has even existed, so i dunno.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

Well as someone pointed out after the initial video it just kinda went dead. Like no press release, no statement, just complete silence.

I mean I think it’s pretty clear cut he assaulted someone and would never try to speculate beyond that but that’s definitely been their strategy to just hope it goes away

Edit: regarding the Miller thing since a few posts passed by

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Jimbot posted:

If it were a power fantasy then he'd go for a fun fly, all smiles, to some uplifting music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JsJUWrCa2s

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

In Man of Steel it certainly is but I don't think it glamorizes his power in Batman v Superman.

hump day bitches!
Apr 3, 2011


Also humans make snap decisions, irrational choices and then we look for supporting facts to cement our opinions.

There’s no objectivity and we all are fastidious irrational zealots. Dehumanise yourself and face the snyderverse.

Edit: my last thought is , a lot of people engaging in the most noble form of combat, posting, will waltz into the hives of their enemies and will get their community knowledge rejected by their inmoral enemies. Happens in the snyderdome and happens on Twitter.

That’s a classic cult mechanic, the squishes are sent as missionaries trying to convert the heathens.That’s the theorical goal, but the way the mechanism works is that these missionaries will get owned H A R D and the rejection of large numbers of people will make them double down on their beliefs and further isolate from society at large.

hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 15, 2021

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

hump day bitches! posted:

Dehumanise yourself and face the snyderverse.

Snydercut Is

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Bullbar posted:

I'm not saying JL is good or even average, but I absolutely did not enjoy Man of Steel or BvS at all. I'm honestly stunned to see so many people saying they're good. They're all bad imo and the only good DCEU movies are Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey.

People have jumped on you. I'm not trying to. Heres a simple question.

How do you feel about the score/music progression between MoS and BvS as compared to Justice League and how that informs what shows up on film? Only asking to see if we are talking about the same things.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Guy A. Person posted:

Well as someone pointed out after the initial video it just kinda went dead. Like no press release, no statement, just complete silence.

I mean I think it’s pretty clear cut he assaulted someone and would never try to speculate beyond that but that’s definitely been their strategy to just hope it goes away

Edit: regarding the Miller thing since a few posts passed by

I think that was me, and yeah I looked into it

No charges were made, no statements, nothing from the victim or the people she was with, nothing from Miller.

The only people that seemed to care were the people who filmed it, who were NOT the people Miller assaulted.

It could be a case where it looked worse than it was, it could be a case where they went to those people and offered them an apology (and a lot of money) it could be a lot of poo poo. But whatever it was, apparently the people involved either did not care enough to push it or were able to be talked into not going into it.

I tend to lean harder on the former because Miller isn't exactly a big name- it'd be easy for the studio to throw him under the bus- but this is literally like

Not even hearsay because we never got to the stage of accusation

Gal is, whatever. She has lovely opinions and probably isn't the best person. Leto is a case of why the hell is he still getting work across the board. I can understand wanting to keep things consistent with your actors but, seriously.

well why not
Feb 10, 2009




Ezra Miller being a non-binary queer icon and being one of the few people to chokeslam a woman into the gutter, on film, is pretty wild. That said, I rewatched the video and it wasn't as nasty as I'd remembered. It's still not cool by any stretch, but there's definitely an incomplete story there.

It's not mentioned on his wikipedia page at all, and Leto doesn't even have a "Personal Life" section. Whoever WB pays to scrub stories is doing a decent job on that front. Interestingly, a "Leto Rumours" google search returns stuff about his on-set "pranks". They're good at this stuff.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
IMO Superman and Batman are absolutely power fantasies, and no amount of angst is really going to change that, it's just inherent to the concept and will bleed into any work.

ImpAtom posted:

Batman as a member of the Justice League these days is something I find a lot easier to enjoy than Batman as a vigilante crime fighter.

I honestly feel the exact opposite but for similar reasons. "Batman but now he just punches galactic space-dictators and has lunch with a martian" feels more problematic to me, because it's papering over the problematic facts of the character; that he's a mentally ill misanthrope that has decided he wants to hurt people in his favorite leather, and that's just accepted because he has the superpower "too rich to stop".

The stories that embrace the concept of "billionaire dresses up and maims poor people and mentally ill/physically deformed villains" feel more honest and less problematic to me, because instead of ignoring the problems with the character, it makes them the entire point.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Neurolimal posted:

IMO Superman and Batman are absolutely power fantasies, and no amount of angst is really going to change that, it's just inherent to the concept and will bleed into any work.


I honestly feel the exact opposite but for similar reasons. "Batman but now he just punches galactic space-dictators and has lunch with a martian" feels more problematic to me, because it's papering over the problematic facts of the character; that he's a mentally ill misanthrope that has decided he wants to hurt people in his favorite leather, and that's just accepted because he has the superpower "too rich to stop".

The stories that embrace the concept of "billionaire dresses up and maims poor people and mentally ill/physically deformed villains" feel more honest and less problematic to me, because instead of ignoring the problems with the character, it makes them the entire point.

The thing is that the latter still almost universally come to the conclusion of "Actually Batman is unique and different and it's important he exists." They don't address the elements so much as wave their hands at it and then follow up with "but it's okay."

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal
One of my favorite parts of Supermans first encounter with Batman in BvS he treats and looks at him like hes this pathetic weirdo he can barely stand to talk to and generally feels disgusted that he, a literal God on Earth, has to tell the weird vigilante to stop being a sadistic nut. Clarks facial expressions say it all.

"The Bat is dead, bury it."

I love that line because hes talking to Bruce and not Batman, he wont even give him the diginity of acknowledging Batman as Batman, he specifically is appealing to the weirdo under the mask, not the "symbol" as Batman tries to present the world.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

ImpAtom posted:

Have you ever heard of The X-Men? Being an outsider who is rejected by society but having the power to ignore that is totally a power fantasy. Even the melodrama and angst that goes with it is part of the fantasy. If it wasn't then nobody would want to be any of the X-Men, even ignoring the fact the majority of them are superpowerful supermodels.


Again, this really doesn't mesh because this argument would suggest Batman is almost never a power fantasy. It's just a different kind of power fantasy. The Punisher is also a power fantasy and he is a literal violent sociopath vigilante who does all those things and is known for killing. Even in versions where he is portrayed as his most broken and awful it still goes out of its way to show how cool he is when he kills people and works to give the viewer a sense of satisfaction when he murders the Real Bad Guys. You're not removing the power fantasy by having Batman kill people, you're just shifting it even more over to the Punisher then most modern Batman already is.

There's a big difference between finding some heroes relatable and their actions being a power fantasy. They overlap at times yes, but they are not one and the same. Also key here, is that the X-men use their powers to stand up to their tormenters. The power fantasy isn't "the melodrama and angst", it's standing up to your bullies. The X-men being ostracised is relatable, the X-men using their powers to threaten the President of the United States to "Not gently caress with us" is the fantasy.

I never said that Batman killing removes the power fantasy, I said that Batman wasn't a power fantasy because he's portrayed as a lonely depressed, broken and miserable person
Punisher can be written as a power fantasy, sure. But if he's written as a horrible monster with little redeeming qualities that gruesomely executes people then I'd argue that no, that particular iteration isn't a power fantasy, it's just a story about him being an rear end in a top hat. If this Batman is a power fantasy I don't think he's a particularly good one. That said, the warehouse scene is clearly meant to be a cool scene, I just don't think it makes up for...well, everything else.

Regarding the Leto thing, I do think the simplest explanation is that Snyder either doesn't believe the rumors around Leto or doesn't want to take action unless there's actually someone that steps forward. Perhaps he just doesn't want to fire someone based on rumors :shrug:

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal
Also its very hard to see but theres a ton of shots that they intentionally leave the curvature of the corners of the 35mm negatives in any shot theyre in.

Look at the top left and bottom left edges compared to the others. If you watch those corners throughout the trailer you'll notice the shift between shots where its present and where its not.


Theres something incredibly novel and cool about them leaving such an analogue image artifact in to shots with a heavy amount of digital effects.

Its like Fabian and Snyder didnt want to leave out a single millimeter of image from a single frame of their footage.

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brawleh
Feb 25, 2011

I figured out why the hippo did it.

I mean, Jesus Christ is a loving power fantasy, this poo poo is like saying water’s wet - it's a component in any kind of mythical style tale. It’s more a question of what’s the narrative of this character’s story - how do they utilize power, to what ends etc. Like Punish is no poo poo a power fantasy for loving cops and poo poo, so now what we're really talking about it politics, ideology - so the marvel movie guys are 'normal people' thing is really weird.

Like, the big narrative arc for Bruce is can a space be opened up with this character for a shot at redemption, can he come back from the brink - and at what cost. BvS ends on a tense note regarding this question. Though within this genre and like, our political and ideological norms or whatever it’s difficult not to see this converging towards a work like Watchmen. Like the time travel stuff, at least in the early concepts, is kind of a give away to that fact - but who knows, the Snyder Cut isn't out yet.

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