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Funky Valentine posted:He's the first of the Godhand roster we meet during the Eclipse. I'm pretty sure they've said out right that he is the first of the God Hand in general, too. They've mentioned him being the eldest God Hand
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Feb 14, 2021 21:31
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Burkion posted:I'm pretty sure they've said out right that he is the first of the God Hand in general, too. They've mentioned him being the eldest God Hand Yeah this is where I'm thrown off. I also think that's where I got their nature with time from too, since I think it said he was created by the other four but is still the oldest.
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Feb 14, 2021 22:01
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Tosk posted:A post a couple pages back someone mentioned that humans were being herded towards Falconia for a mass sacrifice. That's an interesting thought. I personally think they're systematically exterminating all the other magical creatures of the land because the Idea of Evil behind the God Hand specifically has power over humanity, and wants to solidify its rule by making humans the only beings on Earth. I feel like we'll progress into magic slowly dying and the world becoming "mundane" towards the end of the manga (this is just me feeling like it's relatively foreshadowed as some kind of fantasy Earth, but I could be totally off my rocker there). I read this theory as presented by someone on a Berserk fansite who definitely thinks way more about the manga than I ever will and utterly convinced me with his argument. The referred theory is the thread "The Idea of Evil’s grand plan" by poster Aazealh on SkullKnight.net I believe they also predicted that there would be different God Hand members present during the fall of Gaiseric's empire two years prior to the fact being revealed to us. Their theory concerning the IoE's plan is pretty solid, and the one I find to be most convincing.
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Feb 14, 2021 22:13
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While I do think the Idea of Evil /Godhand is herding people to Falconia, I don't think its for the purpose of human extermination for the reason referred to above. The Idea of Evil would effectively be destroying its medium. Rather, I think it sets a grand stage for an event to strengthen human belief in evil (i.e.: strengthening the Idea of Evil and propagate it's influence) if they are witness to something truly despicable (mass sacrifice) that pulls the rug out from under people who are now inspired to hope by the hawk of light. I additionally the think the Godhand members either graduate to join the Idea of Evil / wrest the throne or max out and dissipate to nothingness and have a rotating roster to explain the change in members (I feel confident that the Skull Knight's vision was of Godhand members).
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Feb 14, 2021 22:29
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The Godhand having an evolving roster makes sense in light of how the 216-year cycle is talked about as going on from time immemorial. Void is the eldest of the current Godhand (himself, Slan, Ubik, Conrad, Femto) but even he was the newbie in the Skull Knight's Godhand (Zeus, Theater Mask Man, SKINNY BRO, Boobs Galore).
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Feb 14, 2021 22:35
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Some sort of sacrifice or tragedy of Falconia seems like a reasonable last arc. If Griffith is betrayed by the God Hand and turns on them, it could be a reasonable way to have Guts and co stand some sort of a chance against them in a battle. It's the closest thing Griffith could ever come to a redemption arc. I'm wondering, if nothing like this happens, and the world isn't "saved", what would a Berserk ending be like? Guts and Caska learning to live in the world they've got and putting their traumas behind them? Perhaps living on as a force for good in a world of evil. Or just... living on and walking into the sunset. Something like this but with Guts dying to secure a somewhat liveable future for Caska wouldn't surprise me as well. It seems like something this manga could do for an ending, and of course it would be tragic in many ways which is fine, but I'm having trouble seeing how it could be a satisfying ending. Bisse fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 23:33
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I don't see the elimination of the Godhand as an ending to the series, much less the Idea of Evil. A happy ending to me is Guts abandoning his driving force of revenge and personal animus and getting off the cycle of tragedy that has defined his life. Making a good life with Casca and serving as an exemplar of redemption
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Feb 15, 2021 00:47
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Hmm. I guess I agree that eliminating the God Hand or even the Idea of Evil seems like something that belongs in Naruto rather than Berserk. I guess more concretely what i'm looking for is that the world is currently overrun by evil and if that's not undone before the ending, then I would consider it a tragic ending even if Guts/Caska's character arcs resolve happily.
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Feb 15, 2021 10:41
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Yeah the Godhand don't need to be defeated in combat per se but if their control of the physical world isn't broken then it's a lovely ending even if Guts and Casca manage to move forward from their trauma.
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Feb 15, 2021 10:51
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The God Hand are fated eternal beings, even if the actual cast of them changes. I don't think there is anyway for any of our characters to completely defeat them or the Idea of Evil to the point where they can't touch the physical world again. Kill one and certainly another will be spun out into the cosmos fated to join them again. The "goal" if there is one beyond Guts and his hatred, has to be to restore the balance they've collapsed and separate the astral and physical worlds again so that humanity isn't subject to every monstrosity they have at their disposal.
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Feb 15, 2021 16:50
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I mean, if the Idea of Evil (which may not even be canon) is created from humanity's collective belief that suffering has a purpose why can't a new collective belief in something else create an opposing Idea that can at least keep it in check? Not sure how you'd do that in a non-hamfisted way though.
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Feb 15, 2021 19:46
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If a new idea was put in place, the godhand would change form, not cease to exist.
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Feb 15, 2021 20:04
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I sincerely doubt this is where the story will go, but I have long toyed with the idea that Griffith is inadvertently undermining the Idea of Evil and its hold over humanity. The population is decimated, but in Falconia they hunker down behind high walls as Griffith's proto-fascism proves an enviable alternative to past monarchies. He keeps the apostles on a short leash. Not even his monster-extermination operations hold the terror of military campaigns of old, as he literally brings the souls of the departed back to their loved ones. Might the hope and promise of Falconia prove to be a sufficient barrier against the re-assertion of the despair that the Idea of Evil embodies? Probably not.
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Feb 15, 2021 20:38
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Could Guts pull off a significantly baller feat enough that he makes humanity believe less in evil, or more in goodness, thus limiting the Idea of Evil's influence for the foreseeable future and perhaps creating a counterforce that can grow strong enough to hold it back?
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Feb 15, 2021 21:45
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LordMune posted:I sincerely doubt this is where the story will go, but I have long toyed with the idea that Griffith is inadvertently undermining the Idea of Evil and its hold over humanity. The population is decimated, but in Falconia they hunker down behind high walls as Griffith's proto-fascism proves an enviable alternative to past monarchies. He keeps the apostles on a short leash. Not even his monster-extermination operations hold the terror of military campaigns of old, as he literally brings the souls of the departed back to their loved ones. Might the hope and promise of Falconia prove to be a sufficient barrier against the re-assertion of the despair that the Idea of Evil embodies? Probably not. Secondly, Griffith's first act once he gained the power of a god by sacrificing everyone who loved him, was to attempt to rape mutilate and murder his two closest. Presumably Griffith remain intact as a person after becoming a god, so the only thing stopping him from doing something like this before was having the power to do it and get away with it. So I'm not saying that Griffith doesn't gives the slightest gently caress about anyone but himself, but he is Not A Good Person and I don't see him taking any action that would sacrifice his dream, and undoing the merge of the two worlds would basically destroy Falconia's purpose.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:52
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I don't see the world becoming unfucked by the end of the series. It just seems counter to the themes and ideas of this series.
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Feb 15, 2021 23:52
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I never meant to imply Griffith would be doing this intentionally, but your post raises some interesting questions. His kingdom, the shining city on the hill, was always his goal. If in a final confrontation he were compelled to sacrifice again - in a parallel to the Count - and if - in a parallel to Void and Skull Knight - that sacrifice were to be the entirety of his capital city, would he do it? And what would the defeat of a member of the God Hand mean for the Idea of Evil, now no longer shielded by the membranes between planes? The formation of the Idea was undoubtedly a slow process, but with the astral plane now intruding on the material world and its primordial soup of human consciousness, could another, antithetical Idea form spontaneously? Perhaps one born of genuine belief in a (false) messiah? Gonna get out of the deep end now LordMune fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 00:02
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The best ending possible is for Guts and Caska to free themselves from the Vortex, so that they can die and ascend to peace instead of that misery That's basically THE real end goal. Break the chains of that. Beyond that, I think the happiest ending of Berserk would be a simple admission of truth. The idea of evil will always exist, there will always be new horrors But also, there will always be those who struggle against that fate. Just as there will be more demons in the future, so will there be strugglers. That is life.
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Feb 16, 2021 00:19
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Bisse posted:Could Guts pull off a significantly baller feat enough that he makes humanity believe less in evil, or more in goodness, thus limiting the Idea of Evil's influence for the foreseeable future and perhaps creating a counterforce that can grow strong enough to hold it back? yeah i think something like the god hand being weakened considerably (becoming 4 members permanently or something) even in spite of the massive struggle and pain makes it worth it and worth striving against evil in the long run even if in the short run it doesnt mean too much changes. the weakening gives guts the ability to live out a peaceful existence if only for a bit, with people he loves, while griffith dies alone and miserable because the godhand abandons him for not being as useful as they thought. even though i dont think that will be the exact ending, that feels like the correct tone for berserk.
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Feb 16, 2021 01:59
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Ccs posted:If anyone is chafing between chapters, I highly recommend the book "Between Two Fires" by Christopher Buehlman. It's possibly the most Berserk-esque book I've ever read, to the point that I was sure some sections were direct homages. It's historical fantasy, and the author has done a poo poo ton of research into medieval France, so it doesn't seem derivative at all. I read a ton of fantasy and this is one of the best in a long time. This got buried by that argument immediately afterward, but it's a pro recommendation. I just blasted through it in an evening, and it's been a long time since I had the attention span to actually sit down and read a book.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:52
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From a human perspective, I don't think it should be contentious at all to say that Griffith has done terrible evil. I think what makes the character so compelling is that he is constantly giving you reasons to question whether a human perspective is appropriate or sufficient in his case. Even before he becomes a member of the Godhand, he is frequently spoken about as though he is "larger than life," not merely an exceptional man, but divine in some sense. Casca is all but a high priestess to his cult of personality, always insisting that he is different. Depending on how seriously you take all the fate language, a case can be made that while Griffith is definitely born a person, he was always and already chosen for his fate. I think how you feel about him determines whether you see him as an ambitious narcissist who strikes a deal with the devil when his earthly options are spent - in this case he is rejecting his reality, a fundamentally weak and cowardly option - or you see him as anointed by fate for his cosmic purpose, in which case his ascent is him embracing his reality. At this crisis point, Griffith rapes and maims his closest human connections. For Griffith as a man, this is the fullest expression of his bitterness and insecurity. For Griffith as Femto, a god, this is completing his destiny by making the clearest possible severance from his human origins and from human morality. As a man, Griffith's actions are unforgivable, as Femto/a god, forgivability is no longer a relevant category - he strides across that line. Whether you see this as running from something painful and imperfect or running towards something ideal and perfect is I think where you get people feeling like Griffith can somehow be justified, as Griffith clearly believes the latter, and not without cause. The strength of the writing is that it cultivates this moral/theological tension instead of undermining it. But I don't think this means that Miura keeps the tension alive as a way of endorsing Griffith's choice, or even leaving the door open to such an endorsement. Puck addressing the Count in Guardians of Desire posted:"The truth is you became this thing to run away from the pain inside your own heart! To run away from yourself! You threw away your humanity - if anyone's a fragile human, it's you!"
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Feb 16, 2021 19:27
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Evil gods are perhaps not evil because they don't consider themselves evil?
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Feb 16, 2021 20:30
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I would say your argument falls apart because Griffith had the choice of saying 'No, I do not sacrifice'.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:37
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If he truly was fated then he never had a choice in the first place. the illusion of choice is what allowed him to think he had options right up until that moment when he realizes, as Lucasar has posited, that saying "no i don't sacrifice" was never a real choice. Griffith was always going to make that decision because his life had been fated to lead him to it, and was reinforced by those around him. (If you buy that truly fate is in control and humans have no power, which Guts is the clear antagonist to). That is the grey area in Griffith's character, was it fate or was it him that caused the horrible outcome at the eclipse? Did he actually have a choice as Guts tries to tell him or was it all just to get him to the place to be able to join the God Hand like Void told him? Griffith trusts the dark god's promise more than the promise of his friends which seals his fate/decision. The duality of choice vs fate/destiny is a popular story framework, and Miura has done a good job of straddling the line where we can have this debate because his text isn't so clear as to define it one way or the other! imo it's not that Evil Gods don't consider themselves evil, clearly the God Hand do seem to consider themselves aligned with evil, it's that they themselves would not judge or hold themselves to human standards because they are beyond it. The consideration of it is evil for a member of the god hand to do anything, is a pointless debate, because they are beings that don't exist in the mortal realm (bound by its rules and outcomes), outside of time to some degree, and would never frame their actions in that way since to them it doesn't really matter. Void makes a very clear point to talk about fate and the actions needed to capture power, but the god hand never really discuss anything they are doing in moral terms, only in a sort of pragmatic, will this produce the fated outcome we expect? Clearly "good things" happened under their power to create the outcome they wanted (Griffith wouldn't have the band of the hawk without some positives twists of fate nor made it to the eclipse without some good things happening for him and the band), but I doubt they ever consider such actions in the mortal realm under any guide of ethics or good/evil. Those outcomes never bother them however it happens, which is part of why I think we haven't seen them upset at the "good" created by Griffith's falconia, they don't really care about the means as long as it gets them to their destined end. Evil is a concern of the mortal realm not theirs. I think you could easily have a monkey's paw God Hand member who uses their power to create "good" for humans that will lead them to do greater evils and that God Hand member being "good & doing good things" would not really be in conflict with their status or goals. Cause Causality is their big thing, not whether the action is good or bad, but does it mesh with causality to create the outcome they want? Things simply seem to be for the God Hand, they don't really view any of the actions we see through that human moral lens. Perhaps thats why a big part of becoming a member of them is shedding that remaining humanity and sacrificing all your ties to the mortal world vs becoming an apostle where you only need to sacrifice one of your human connections? Griffith was capable of using the egg of the king vs a regular behelit because he was willing to cut all ties to humanity for his dream, not just one of his connections to preserve or empower the search for another human connection. I don't think he'd get to be Femto if he was only willing to give up Guts or a part of the Band of the Hawk to say save Casca etc. e: that got really long winded quick and made me think a lot more about their second duel when Guts leaves. I think it is a big sealed fate moment, even if it isn't as the one poster implied the point at which you can still get a happy ending, Guts staying I don't think would have avoided the eclipse, but it might have been a way for Griffith to say I don't sacrifice which he can't do with how it plays out. poo poo this is so well written. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:01
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quote:Did he actually have a choice as Guts tries to tell him The Notorious ZSB posted:Things simply seem to be for the God Hand, they don't really view any of the actions we see through that human moral lens. Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:17
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Yeah anytime someone talks about being beyond human morality I expect them to end their speech with "Mwahahahaha!"
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Feb 16, 2021 21:21
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Bisse posted:This is essentially the definition of evil. It is certainly a way for humans & mortals to define evil yes, but for beings that aren't mortal and don't have same desires or concerns? I don't think it's hard to see how they wouldn't consider their actions in mortal terms because they aren't. Why should gods be held to the same reality and guidelines as humans when they don't exist with them, but above/beyond them? The greek gods never were, the monotheistic god never is, pick whatever religion you want, if it has deities they aren't held to the same standards, if any, that humans are. Gods are by definition above human morality otherwise they wouldn't be gods. Bisse posted:Yes. The first loving arc of the drat manga has a villain who uses the behelith, and then chooses not to sacrifice. He is not branded so he is as much bound by fate as Griffith. I'm not saying that Griffith had no choice, we're talking about the narrative that puts him in a position to buy Void's bullshit. Guts shows that choice exists simply by continuing to exist in the interstice. We're talking about the narrative tension in the story which is centrally asking that question and playing it out between Guts and Griffith. I fully expect the story to end on Gut's side that choice is what defines us not fate and that Griffith was wrong. The Skull Knight keeps mentioning his fate with the armor, it's just another layer imo that will shows Gut's "choice" is more powerful than Griffith's "fate". I suspect this is tied to the Skull Knight and what more we'll learn about him. The God Hand act like they're beyond humanity but each of them started their existence as one. I think to your point they aren't really as beyond it as they think they are. The God Hand aren't really as eternal as they were first billed either since we know that only Void is left from the eclipse that consumed his kingdom. Viridiant posted:Yeah anytime someone talks about being beyond human morality I expect them to end their speech with "Mwahahahaha!" The God Hand do end a lot of the exposition with evil cackling so I mean that tracks. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:25
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Was Hitler evil or did he just view things through a different moral lens than me? Was Sauron evil or can he be forgiven because as a god he did not choose to consider the suffering of man? Also sure, let's pick one of the world's most prominent religions, hmmm let's pick, Christianity, which has, let's see: God, Jesus, and Satan: The Literal Embodiment Of Evil, so yeah. Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:40
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Bisse posted:Also sure, let's pick one of the world's most prominent religions, hmmm let's pick, Christianity, which has, let's see: God, Jesus, and Satan: The Literal Embodiment Of Evil, so yeah. Satan is a fallen angel and wasn't held to the same standards as Humans. It is literally his beef.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:52
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Ah yes and that's why the average human looks at today's Satan, and thinks "Evil? Hmm. This is debatable. What standard should I hold him to?" Like i'm not sure what you're arguing here? That humans are not allowed to consider gods evil if they themselves don't consider themselves evil? That's a dumb and wrong argument, but moreso it is irrelevant because the God Hand consider themselves evil! If literally ending their sentences in manical evil laughters, dressing like cenobites and decorating their home with bleeding faces wasn't enough of a clue, they also literally follow a deity that calls itself 'The Idea Of Evil'! Humans: The God Hand is evil. God Hand: We are evil. The Notorious ZSB: Hmm this is debatable. Do they share our moral lens? Bisse fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:54
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I'm not saying that Griffith had no choice quote:If he truly was fated then he never had a choice in the first place.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:55
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Generally speaking, if you work for something literally called Evil, dress like direct-to-video cenobites, and oversee a process that has people sell their souls to Hell for a moments' power, you are kinda objectively on Team Evil.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:02
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I think we aren't even debating? Lucasars point I think was that the God Hand don't really view actions in our lens and that would create some ambiguity about Griffiths Arc for how you want to look at him and what his actions once he joins them mean. It's also a central concept the story has grappled with (where is the line between justified violence in service of the good and simply evil perpetrated for the sake of evil?) Amazing what the word "if" does to a statement. IF X then Y is possible. That doesn't mean I'm asserting X is the absolute. I'm trying to argue that the narrative hasn't been explicit about which version of Griffith's story is true because it is the god damned climax of the story. Griffith having to recognize the choice he made and the harm it caused is important, but Griffith and the narrative haven't settled on the answer to that even if we have. You've decided Griffith had a choice, I agree, but the narrative hasn't settled on that yet. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 22:06
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Jesus loving christ
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Feb 16, 2021 22:09
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Bisse posted:Jesus loving christ The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 22:11
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Bisse posted:Was Hitler evil or did he just view things through a different moral lens than me? God is waaaaaay more evil than Satan in the Bible by human standards. Like unbelievably so. In a simple comparison Satan has a body count of, what was it, 6 or something compared to God's hundreds of thousands to millions to billions depending on how you read Revelation. The Bible still writes him as "good." I think that's the kind of distinction/discussion the poster was trying to have.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:16
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I think fate is a convenient excuse to abdicate the responsibility of one's actions. If Griffith's choice was determined by fate then he can't be held morally responsible for what he did because never had a choice in the matter and so why should he feel bad? I'm not terribly sympathetic to that idea. On the other hand there were certainly forces at work that conspired to bring Griffith to that moment but even if he was led to that door, I still believe he made the choice to walk through it.
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Feb 16, 2021 23:25
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Bisse posted:I would say your argument falls apart because Griffith had the choice of saying 'No, I do not sacrifice'. GorfZaplen posted:
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Feb 16, 2021 23:38
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christmas boots posted:I think fate is a convenient excuse to abdicate the responsibility of one's actions. If Griffith's choice was determined by fate then he can't be held morally responsible for what he did because never had a choice in the matter and so why should he feel bad? I'm not terribly sympathetic to that idea. On the other hand there were certainly forces at work that conspired to bring Griffith to that moment but even if he was led to that door, I still believe he made the choice to walk through it.
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Feb 16, 2021 23:39
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christmas boots posted:I think fate is a convenient excuse to abdicate the responsibility of one's actions. If Griffith's choice was determined by fate then he can't be held morally responsible for what he did because never had a choice in the matter and so why should he feel bad? I'm not terribly sympathetic to that idea. On the other hand there were certainly forces at work that conspired to bring Griffith to that moment but even if he was led to that door, I still believe he made the choice to walk through it. This is a long term philosophical debate, and also tends to be whether people focus more on punishment or rehabilitation.
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Feb 16, 2021 23:49
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