JawKnee posted:

I think this might depend on who the sheriff is, (possibly if you let the NCR take over)

Gaius Marius posted:

Yes when I think pretty much dead what springs to mind immediately is a faction that still controls multiple states and thousands of slave soldiers.


House disapproves of you killing Caeser because Lanius is both worse and from his point of view impossible to negotiate with. He clearly thinks they're ridiculous but he also doesn't have a way to actually stop them.

Gaius Marius posted:

They've been decisively defeated at the dam before. And their legate lost at the same battle. Caeser being dead would probably result in a civil war, but if you think their won't either be successor states or a new Caeser then you need to read some more history. Once a unification happens it takes a lot for a state to fall into complete disarray

Gaius Marius posted:

They've been decisively defeated at the dam before. And their legate lost at the same battle. Caeser being dead would probably result in a civil war, but if you think their won't either be successor states or a new Caeser then you need to read some more history. Once a unification happens it takes a lot for a state to fall into complete disarray.

If you don't think that there's another caeser waiting in the wings consider this, Salt upon Wounds has already began adopting caesers brutal tactics for his tribe.

Gaius Marius posted:

House disapproves of you killing Caeser because Lanius is both worse and from his point of view impossible to negotiate with. He clearly thinks they're ridiculous but he also doesn't have a way to actually stop them.

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

I know New Vegas doesn't use the real casinos in the game, but I want to see Caesar's/The Legion reaction if when they strolled into Vegas only to see Caesar's Palace still around

Crazy Joe Wilson posted:

Caesar's Legion IS a Cult of Personality, but both background info and in-game info contradict the idea that Caesar has not taught any of his ideas to his followers. Multiple Legion characters (Lanius, Lucius, Vulpes Inculta, and Canyon Runner, for starters) all spout off tons of ideological talking points (Vulpes and Lanius both spout off how the Legion is 'civilization reborn, all sorts of things about their virtues versus the "profligates and dissolute" in the West. Canyon Runner has an entire ideology about the virtues of slaves and slavery versus the barbarians outside of the Legion. Same with the guy who takes you to the Fort. Furthermore, the Guide states that there are "Priestesses of Mars" back in Legion territory who raise the children of the Legion to buy completely into Legion propaganda.

I think the ideals of the Legion, the 'virtues' Caesar believes it embodies, are pretty well-understood by the rank and file after 4 decades. You also have the fact that Caesar has encultured them using the Latin language (How much Latin is actually spoken is up for debate, but it's clear a lot of Latin words, including the classical pronunciations, are common-place among the Legion). Language control is common trait of cults, and is a very powerful control. The only thing that Caesar probably hasn't divulged is his Hegelian Dialetics struggle theory, which as soon as Caesar dies, I could see a successor say "screw that" and go back East to actually start building a state apparatus. You also have coined money, which implies a mint, tax collectors, assessors, the whole works. Given that traders and even Vegas casinos accept Legion currency (It is legit gold and silver after all).

Boone mentions that Caesar has a whole line of succession, and I'm just not convinced that the Legion would implode and break up into a multitude of factions. Civil War sure to figure out the next Caesar. If Lanius is alive I could see him pull together the necessary support of the other Legates, and Vulpes would probably fall in line, or get yeeted by the Praetorian Guard. After 40 years of "we are legion" being drummed into the Legionnaires, the mixed breeding mentioned by Chief Hanlon, I just don't see the Legion splintering into new identities. A struggle for who controls the Legion identity sure, but after the historical Caesar died you had a civil war followed the founding of a true empire.

TL;DR: Caesar's Legion has the following things going for it that argues against it completely collapsing after Caesar dies
- A line of succession (mentioned by Boone, Joshua Graham (? not sure, can't remember) and House)
- A common currency (That means there's mints, tax assessors and collectors, and it's commonly accepted among traders)
- A common culture (Bought in by most Legionnaires, enforced from childhood by Priestesses, believed in and expoused by the leading figures)
- A common enemy (NCR, doubly-so after a second loss at Hoover Dam)
- A held continuous territory (Arizona, NM, Utah, Colorado)

I just want to see the Legion enemies in Future Fallout games.

DACK FAYDEN posted:

thing

OldMemes posted:

The way Protrectrons speak cracks me up, its just a shame they walk so slowly.

OldMemes posted:

The way Protrectrons speak cracks me up, its just a shame they walk so slowly.

Nckdictator posted:

NikkolasKing posted:

I agree with most of this but I think one thing Caesar's troops don't understand is women. I don't think Caesar or his inner circle are misogynistic in the sense they think men are superior. I think Ed sees all people as tools, just like he says. It's just that women have a unique function as tools in his empire. This is disgusting and evil but it's clearly not ideological because, while the grunts will disparage a female Courier, Caesar, Vulpes and Lucius give no fucks about your sex. They see a valuable asset and while Legion Soldier #482 might very well squander a priceless tool like a lady Courier, Caesar never would.

I think this is illustrative of ideals breaking down in the face of actions. Caesar might see men as warriors and women as breeders and they're both equally disposable cogs in his machine but all the men see is they get to fight and kill and rape while the women are taken as basically property. They do end up as true misogynists.

Of course you mentioned the Priestesses of Mars the guide mentions and we also never see Legion soldiers interact with civilian women in Legion territory. Also the grunts will warm up to you as your rep grows with the Legion and in the Legion ending the Courier's face is printed on a coin no matter their sex so who knows what could happen in the future there.

But I just think it's an interesting and very intentional case of how the realities of actions overpower an idea. It's one of the most core criticisms of this sort of brutal utilitarianism. You might think you have to raise an army to kill a bunch of people to save the planet but eventually all you've done is make a lot of people into killers and all they know is they like killing now. They have none of your ends justify the means reasoning, they just want to kill. Marcus basically says this:

I think Caesar has a hint of this problem and that's why he wants Vegas to be his Rome, to fundamentally transform the Legion. But if that never happens/The Legion's "culture" would survive but that isn't really what Caesar wants. It would just be a brutal mill of death, killing forever with no purpose or end.

Crazy Joe Wilson posted:

You're absolutely right that Caesar's ideas and culture at large are never going to exist exactly how one person (in this case, Caesar) want them to be; they'll be misunderstood, re-interpreted, etc. I think what the Legion has absorbed from Caesar is enough so that there won't be an implosion at his death, that's all. A civil war over the next Caesar sure.

My bet is that the canon ending of New Vegas will not involve the Courier murdering everyone at the fort and Legate Lanius, but we'll have to see.

Discendo Vox posted:

Please timg these.

NikkolasKing posted:

Yeah then we totally agree. I think folks who insist the Legion are just raiders in football pads miss the entire point of the Legion. It's not apologism to acknowledge a functional army and state can be evil as gently caress.

rope kid posted:

RE: Caesar's plans: yes, he views the Colorado River as the Rubicon and the NCR as the corrupt Roman Republic waiting to be torn down via military occupation. This is literally exactly what Julius Caesar did with Legio XIII Gemina. Other things Julius Caesar did: not leave a clear line of succession, resulting in the early fracture and borderline collapse of the nascent Roman Empire he created.

rope kid posted:

Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.

It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture, the rest being indoctrinated conscripts from cultures that were honestly less well-developed than anything in Gaul. Gauls are pretty sophisticated compared to the 80+ tribes. Gauls could read the Latin or Greek alphabets (Gallic language, obviously), had extensive permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, and a whole load of poo poo that groups like the Blackfoots never had.

What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values.

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture.

Rockstar Massacre posted:

I think you've got it backwards, he doesn't want to topple the NCR because it has what the Legion needs, the Legion exists explicitly to remake the NCR.

Discendo Vox posted:

We don't think it's true just because several different NPCs say it with varying levels of credibility, we think it's the case because rope kid's said things like:

ArcSquad12 posted:

That sounds the pretty much the same to me. Caesar can gussy up his excuses all he wants but he needs the NCR's resources to buoy up his Legion and plant his preferred form of leadership on top of its corpse.

Gaius Marius posted:

Caesers plan is absolutely insane and wouldn't work at all the way the game is written. If it had been the Van Buren version of the Legion that stretched all the way to texas maybe but not this one.

I think his problem is he's fully internalized the idea that the NCR is a bloated rotting mess of a state and that all he needs to do is kick out the supports and take over everything that's left. Personally I find this competently ridiculous.

It's interesting that had the Courier not intervened the Legion probably would've won the Mojave. The future that presents is pretty bleak. The NCR hopefully manages to get it's poo poo together after realizing they're not the only state actors on the scene, but Caeser dying is going to make everything to the east a nightmare. Lanius takes over, Caeser's dream of creating a real state die, Lanius is going to be putting down revolts in the east and the mojave for decades or longer like the Neo Assyrian empire.

Gaius Marius posted:

Caesers plan is absolutely insane and wouldn't work at all the way the game is written. If it had been the Van Buren version of the Legion that stretched all the way to texas maybe but not this one.

I think his problem is he's fully internalized the idea that the NCR is a bloated rotting mess of a state and that all he needs to do is kick out the supports and take over everything that's left. Personally I find this competently ridiculous.

It's interesting that had the Courier not intervened the Legion probably would've won the Mojave. The future that presents is pretty bleak. The NCR hopefully manages to get it's poo poo together after realizing they're not the only state actors on the scene, but Caeser dying is going to make everything to the east a nightmare. Lanius takes over, Caeser's dream of creating a real state die, Lanius is going to be putting down revolts in the east and the mojave for decades or longer like the Neo Assyrian empire.

Arcsquad12 posted:

I dont know if the game mentions it anywhere but did the NCR rangers get their black armour from their unification with the Desert Rangers? The Desert Rangers were further east and between HH's Desert ranger combat armor and the Lonesome Road riot coats it seems like the Black Armour was integrated into the NCR Rangers after unification, with most patrol Rangers outside of the veterans wearing the NCR built patrol armour instead.