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Sadi posted:1st, I’m buying a birch butcher block counter top to use as the top for a standing desk since I work from home. I like the natural wood colors, is there a recommended finish y’all would choose? I’ve finished with linseed oil before, so I was thinking of that or tung. My choice would probably be Danish Oil (I only have experience with the Watco brand, but there are others) in a natural finish. It's an oil/varnish blend so it will dry quickly and is extremely easy to apply (flood the surface, wait 15 minutes, wipe off excess, apply second coat, wait 5 minutes, wipe off excess), it cures quickly, and it gives decent protection. I would probably use a mineral oil/wax blend for a butcher block meant for food prep, but for a desk, danish oil is easier.
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Feb 22, 2021 17:22
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Sadi posted:A couple dumb rear end questions. I have no back ground in wood work, though a reasonable amount in machine work. If you want to keep the wood looking as natural as possible look into polyurethane topcoats. There's a bunch of variations but the basic oil or water based type work great. Oil based will yellow very slightly and water based is nearly clear but both don't change the look of the wood very much. Polyurethane should be more durable than the "oil" options you listed. Side note - stain and finish product naming is incredibly misleading sometimes so don't assume the label is an accurate description of what it is. Stick to satin finish unless you want the plasticy look. I made a butcher block desk recently too and it works great, I hope you enjoy yours!
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Feb 22, 2021 17:40
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I would say the table saw accessory that has saved my rear end the most has been my magnetic featherboard. They cost around $40 but it's a small price to pay for your fingers.
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Feb 22, 2021 17:47
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I think nowadays theres a real question as to whether you really need/want a low end table saw. Depending on usage a track saw might be a better choice, but its part what you're going to do with it and part personal preference. I have a couple cheap table saws and have never really liked any table saw I've used. Some better than others, but ymmv.
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Feb 22, 2021 18:11
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I built some box drawers and need fronts for them; I'm going to talk to the cabinet maker down the street but depending on how much he wants for a pair it might make more sense for me to buy a cheap router and DIY. So, as someone with only the most basic knowledge of routers, what should I look for in one? Will I hate myself if I buy the $30 harbor freight one to use until it breaks?
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Feb 22, 2021 18:57
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Toebone posted:I built some box drawers and need fronts for them; I'm going to talk to the cabinet maker down the street but depending on how much he wants for a pair it might make more sense for me to buy a cheap router and DIY. My personal rule for Harbor Freight is never buy anything that requires precision and never buy anything which catastrophic failure would result in loss of life, limb, or eyesight. A HF router fails on both criteria. Get a real one.
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Feb 22, 2021 19:04
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As the saying goes, cry once when you buy it or cry every time you use it. A good tool makes you feel good when you use it.
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Feb 22, 2021 19:17
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Sadi posted:100% a huge fear of mine. I was assuming a zero clearance insert would be as good as a riving knife. I’d obviously love a saw stop, but the price is a bit high for me for my first foray into woodworking. You are saying "zero clearance insert" but I think you mean, something like the MJ Splitter, which puts a plastic splitter behind the blade to act like a riving knife? These splitters are installed by modifying a zero-clearance insert. I have one, because my used table saw came without a riving knife and there are no more for this model available anywhere. But. I do not think someone brand new to woodworking should start with a table saw. I have one, I use it very safely, but I've also taken a class in woodworking and let a seasoned teacher teach me how to use it safely. Even so it's easily the most dangerous thing in my shop, right ahead of my router. (I'd argue a lathe is more dangerous than a router, but I don't have one.) I would suggest that you start with one or two or three projects, and acquire tools useful for those projects. While a table saw is a powerful and versatile tool, there's nothing a table saw does that can't be done, often better, by a different tool. That doesn't mean it's useless, quite the contrary: but between bandsaws, circular saws, routers, and miter saws, you have all of its functions covered; and all of those power tools just make a bunch of cuts faster than you can do with hand tools, but don't make hand tools obsolete, either. Toebone posted:I built some box drawers and need fronts for them; I'm going to talk to the cabinet maker down the street but depending on how much he wants for a pair it might make more sense for me to buy a cheap router and DIY. Why do you need a router in order to make box drawer fronts? Maybe you could show us your designs and we can recommend something. I have argued in this thread before, against the tendency to tell new woodworkers to spend lots of money on expensive top-end tools; I think there are many many cases where a midgrade tool that costs 1/5th the price of a top-end one is the better option for a beginner, especially on a budget. However the absolute bottom-end tools are mostly garbage and often outright dangerous. Harbor Freight is not always the bottom-garbage-end for tools, I've got a number of their tools in my shop (mostly for mechanics rather than woodwork but whatever), but the difference between a $30 router and a $100 router is significant. Home depot's house brand, Ryobi, has a bunch of offerings included corded and battery routers in the $80-$130 range that, while definitely not top of the line, will function reasonably safely and effectively for the occasional home woodshop hobbyist, and that's just one brand example.
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Feb 22, 2021 20:25
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imo it also depends on your goals. do you want to crank out furniture as fast as possible, or are you in it for the process and hobby-ness? I have found the hobby substantially more enjoyable working with hand tools than with power. There's still stuff I'm liable to just set up a power tool for, like cutting 16 leg-pieces to the same length, but I'm very much enjoying the Process of working by hand. Also I have jack poo poo for space so I don't have a lot of options anyway, I owe the thread a drunken sawbench picture so here it is in its final fit check:  I've since glued up the legs and wedged the tenons. now I need to find a level surface to mark and cut the legs to final length also to build another one, this time Better
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Feb 22, 2021 21:27
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Toebone posted:I built some box drawers and need fronts for them; I'm going to talk to the cabinet maker down the street but depending on how much he wants for a pair it might make more sense for me to buy a cheap router and DIY. A super cheap router will be under powered and most likely only have a 1/4 collett which will mean you'll have to use a smaller bit and have to force it more than you would with a bigger router. Both of these things increase the chance of an injury. You don't have to spend a lot of money, but if you really want a plunge router make sure its got some power and can take at least a 1/2 bit.
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Feb 22, 2021 23:20
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Toebone posted:I built some box drawers and need fronts for them; I'm going to talk to the cabinet maker down the street but depending on how much he wants for a pair it might make more sense for me to buy a cheap router and DIY. To do what with? See what the guy wants for 2 first. As everyone else has said, you don't want to cheap out on routers, but if getting one just for this dismays you, take a sander to the edges and put a slight bevel on.
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Feb 23, 2021 00:06
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You could also order a quality Lee Valley Japanese style roundover plane for less than you'd pay for a shite router.
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Feb 23, 2021 00:22
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Just get an $15 Amazon Basics spokeshave and do it manually
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Feb 23, 2021 00:25
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Making a box for the first time and split the top with a hand saw. Nailed it! The pencil lines
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Feb 23, 2021 00:34
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It’s a feature, not a bug. Cutting things straight is difficult. Nice box still anyway.
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Feb 23, 2021 00:37
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CommonShore posted:You could also order a quality Lee Valley Japanese style roundover plane for less than you'd pay for a shite router. I use an ancient set of cornering tools like these all the time because I'm an idiot and they're idiotproof as long as you keep them sharp. I'm guessing there are less expensive sets somewhere. Even at that price it's 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 3/16 for the cost of a decent roundover plane. Speaking of idiots, is there a good guide to sharpening planes for idiots somewhere? I have 10 or so inherited planes (the ones I can identify are mostly Stanleys) that haven't been used in 40 years and they're all dull as poo poo. Wallet fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Feb 23, 2021 |
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Feb 23, 2021 14:54
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Wallet posted:I use an ancient set of cornering tools like these all the time because I'm an idiot and they're idiotproof as long as you keep them sharp. I'm guessing there are less expensive sets somewhere. Even at that price it's 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 3/16 for the cost of a decent roundover plane. Rex kreuger, Jonathan Katz Moses, and Paul Sellers all have detailed videos about sharpening and restoring planes
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Feb 23, 2021 15:04
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I asked about getting a cheap router because I'm trying to build up a little workshop and they seem like a useful tool, but I'll go with the consensus and save up for a quality one. The rounding / corner planes people have posted have caught my interest, they would definitely get the job done and I enjoy using hand tools. I'll see if I can find anything like that locally. The drawers are going into an existing built-in cabinet, so I'm planning on the drawer fronts matching what's already there - just a simple slab with rounded edges.
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Feb 23, 2021 15:26
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I appreciate all the good advise. I’m still leaning towards a table saw as one of my goal projects is a built in dry bar and it looks like a really helpful took for cabinet door making at the very least. I don’t mine hand tools, but I like to get projects done quickly and have 1500sq ft garage so there’s room. I have a real dumb question though. I’m planning on routing in a chamfered edge on my desk top. On the corners of the table I want to run a small round over. Say 1/2 radius to keep the chamfer from being too knife edge and chipping out. Can I just use a round over router bit and cut down the side of the board (if the table top is parallel to the floor, imagine the router perpendicular to the floor)? Or do I need a jig and cut from the top with flush trim bit?
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Feb 23, 2021 15:36
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Leperflesh posted:A good post. Heed this man, new tablesaw goon. Bloody posted:
I almost always err towards not enough rake and splay, you.... Do not seem to have that problem. Nice work tho, let us know how trippy this ends up being in use.
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Feb 23, 2021 20:22
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yeah I'm gonna aim for less ridiculous on the second one, I'm not sure if I literally laid out my angles all wrong or just did a poor job of drilling my holes at the correct angle or what. I'm kind of surprised the legs all came out to (generously) around the same angles, given that none of the tenons are straight either. I cut the legs to length this morning and I'm overall v happy with my goofy dog
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Feb 23, 2021 21:01
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Sadi posted:I appreciate all the good advise. I’m still leaning towards a table saw as one of my goal projects is a built in dry bar and it looks like a really helpful took for cabinet door making at the very least. I don’t mine hand tools, but I like to get projects done quickly and have 1500sq ft garage so there’s room. So, for breaking down sheet goods if you're going to use flat sheet stuff like ply for the panels, a table saw is only useful if you have eight feet of outfeed table support behind the blade. Handling 8x4s on the table saw is also awkward and IMO pretty risky unless you've carefully set your shop up for it. Ideally I'd like a roller stand for infeed as well. Of course you can buy precut ply in smaller sizes so this isn't insurmountable... but, much better is a circular saw with a track or guide, which you can use on a slab of foam or on sawhorses or something to cut down your paneling. Alternatively you can use thin planks glued along edges to form panels, and if you do that, see the next line: For the stiles and rails, you would generally prefer a miter saw for cutting accurate repeatable 45 degree angles for mitered corners. If you want to do mortise and tenon joints, a bandsaw or hand saws for making tenons and chisels or a mortising jig for cutting mortises are good. This is an example of those cases where yeah a table saw can be a useful tool particularly because you can in theory cut down your sheets on it and with a sled or jig, do miter cuts, and you can use dado blades to cut tenons, slots, etc. but the circular saw with track, and the miter saw, and the band saw, and chisels, are all much safer and also smaller and easier to store tools. My main concern here is safety, but secondary is expense. A good table saw with all its safety equipment will cost considerably more than a good miter saw plus a good circular saw with a track. See what I mean? I don't want to tell you 'no' but it's just a little alarming for someone to declare as their first woodworking tool purchase that they want a table saw. quote:I have a real dumb question though. I’m planning on routing in a chamfered edge on my desk top. On the corners of the table I want to run a small round over. Say 1/2 radius to keep the chamfer from being too knife edge and chipping out. Can I just use a round over router bit and cut down the side of the board (if the table top is parallel to the floor, imagine the router perpendicular to the floor)? Or do I need a jig and cut from the top with flush trim bit? So, I got lost a little bit with your question at the point where you said cut down the side of the board. But the way I would do this is to cut my sheet or glue up my boards until I had the whole table top, and then I'd use a trim router with a chamfer bit to do all the edges, and then personally I'd likely use a spokeshave to clean up or round the corners, but a roundover bit might work. Depends on the angle of the chamfer and how much round you want. A router could easily tear out the wood at the corner if you've already chamfered it thin though. Depends on the wood? I prefer to use hand tools though so I'd likely actually put the chamfer in using a plane (either with a jig or make a chamfering plane) and then do the corners with a spokeshave. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Feb 23, 2021 |
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Feb 23, 2021 21:20
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A circular saw with a straight edge guide produces great cuts for sheets. I can imagine that a track saw would be even better.
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Feb 23, 2021 22:01
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Leperflesh posted:Of course you can buy precut ply in smaller sizes so this isn't insurmountable... but, much better is a circular saw with a track or guide, which you can use on a slab of foam or on sawhorses or something to cut down your paneling. But man are they more expensive per sqft  CommonShore posted:A circular saw with a straight edge guide produces great cuts for sheets. I can imagine that a track saw would be even better. I've never used a track saw. How are they better than a circular saw with a straight edge. Is it really the same thing, just hyper specific to a single task?
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Feb 23, 2021 22:47
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epswing posted:But man are they more expensive per sqft I've never used a track saw either but from what I've seen and read, they tend to be plunge cut and the saw is attached to the track, and set up so that the edge of the track is your cut line so you just plop the track's edge on your line and zip zip, whereas if you're using a circular saw with a straight edge you need to do more measurements to line it up (in my case, the straight edge has to be 4 7/8 inches away from the line, yes I made a template to speed up that alignment). Also the tracks tend to have grippy stuff on the bottom so you don't need to clamp or anything.
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Feb 23, 2021 22:50
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Leperflesh posted:Lots of words First of all I really appreciate all the effort and knowledge. I would like to caveat that this is not my first wood working tool, or project but rather my first look into doing something with a little more precision. I own a circular saw, router, miter saw, chisels and what not. A lot of my draw to table saw may be out of ignorance, form looking up guides like this. Just seems like a good way to get repeatable square/normal cuts. I hadnt considered a band saw for joints, but that does make sense. Per my real dumb question, see this ball park random cad I sketched up with what I'm trying to archive.  I was debating if I could use a round over bit to generate the red surface in the image before I created the chamfer. Order of operation would be important hear to generate the radiused chamfer. However upon thinking on it more, as you said, I think I would blow out a ton of wood and have to glue boards on either side to guide the router on and off of the table top. It seems worth while to just go buy some $10 patterns and a flush cutting template bit and just make the cut 2x, once from the top and once from the bottom. The table top is 1.75" thick and I only have a 1/4" router so I don't really want to go over an 1" long on the bit.. Im not saying I hate hand tools, but I've been a design engineer for more than 5 years in the industrial power tool market so I really really like being able to have repeatable shape. The idea of trying to make a radiused corner by hand that would be normal to both sides and of consistent curvature does not sound like my idea of a good time. Id rather use a consistent known template as a cutting guide.
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Feb 23, 2021 23:20
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CommonShore posted:I've never used a track saw either but from what I've seen and read, they tend to be plunge cut and the saw is attached to the track, and set up so that the edge of the track is your cut line so you just plop the track's edge on your line and zip zip, whereas if you're using a circular saw with a straight edge you need to do more measurements to line it up (in my case, the straight edge has to be 4 7/8 inches away from the line, yes I made a template to speed up that alignment). I'm going to try and make my own using 3/4" ply and some clamps. I was ripping 1/4" Birch ply for cabinets today and the amount of extra measuring and clamping is a pain. When I build my garage/workshop I'm going to definitely make an outfeed setup so I can cut full sheets on my table saw.
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Feb 23, 2021 23:26
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epswing posted:But man are they more expensive per sqft I’ve got the kreg track thing for circular saws and while it’s a PITA to get the saw set up in the shoe, once it’s there it’s waaay better than dealing with straight edges
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Feb 23, 2021 23:58
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dupersaurus posted:I’ve got the kreg track thing for circular saws and while it’s a PITA to get the saw set up in the shoe, once it’s there it’s waaay better than dealing with straight edges I've got the Bora one. It's a little fiddly but I really like it.
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Feb 24, 2021 00:02
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I apparently bought the one circular saw that doesn't fit in the kreg sleds, which is a pain. The skilsaw SPT77s don't fit in the sled, btw.
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Feb 24, 2021 00:06
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Olothreutes posted:I apparently bought the one circular saw that doesn't fit in the kreg sleds, which is a pain. I had an old blue Ryobi that was the same. The blade guard was too thick. Sold it on marketplace for $20 and bought a new Ryobi on direct tools outlet for $15.
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Feb 24, 2021 00:11
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Re:track saws. Buy the Makita if budget is your concern. Standalone they are quicker and more repeatable (no drift) than clamping a guide and using a circle saw. As a crosscut saw they also excel, especially with an MFT-like grid table that can support things like parfdogs. It really replaces the need for crosscut sleds on a table saw, etc. Folks are gonna be "but thats all a bunch of work and money" but so are all of the accessories you buy and build for a table saw. This discussion is an intractable morass, the only point I will make is that everyone advocating against table saws in this thread has absolutely used them, often occupationally, and the folks who question the alternatives often do so while admitting at the same time that they've never tried said alternatives.
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Feb 24, 2021 00:47
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Sadi posted:First of all I really appreciate all the effort and knowledge. I would like to caveat that this is not my first wood working tool, or project but rather my first look into doing something with a little more precision. I own a circular saw, router, miter saw, chisels and what not. A lot of my draw to table saw may be out of ignorance, form looking up guides like this. Just seems like a good way to get repeatable square/normal cuts. I hadnt considered a band saw for joints, but that does make sense. Ahhh, ok I was going by this: Sadi posted:A couple dumb rear end questions. I have no back ground in wood work, though a reasonable amount in machine work. Which implied to me that you'd barely touched a saw, as opposed to someone who already has some power tools and has done some projects. Regarding the consistency problem with hand tools, first, yeah with woodworking and furniture, "good enough the eye can't see the difference" is usually good enough (the exception usually has to do with fitting surfaces together). But also, you can use templates with hand tools! Print out a rounded corner you want and tape it on the wood, or use a compass and draw it with a pencil, etc. and then cut, sand, etc. to your line. It takes some practice but eventually you'll develop the physical tool skills to meet the precision needs you want. I would feel pretty comfortable making those round corners by first slicing off the tips of the corners with a saw and then sanding to a line with hand sanding tools or with a belt or orbital sander, or carving to them with a plane or spokeshave, depending on the material. Consider that people have been making corners like that for probably five thousand years and only had power tools in the last hundred or so. There's almost always a hand-tool approach that is just as good as a power-tool approach. All that said; you can totally do what you want to accomplish using the approach you described, so if you feel comfortable with that, go for it! Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 00:57
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For poo poo's and giggles, I priced out what a Makita tracksaw and some Festool guide rails (Makita's are apparently rather prone to being bent or otherwise unfit for purpose) would cost. About 600 euros, 360 for the saw, 220 for two 1400 mm rails, and 20 for the coupler. That doesn't get you a lot of table saw. What it's usually referred to as a jobsite saw. I have one like that (a little cheaper than that even), and while it does what it's supposed to, it never felt truly comfortable to use. On top of the intrinsic issues all table saws have, it's always too small, a fence that's wobbly when you pull it all the way out, and even then can't go far enough for a 2' wide cut to name some glaring ones. Knowing what I know now, I wish I'd gone for a track saw, but until recently I never heard of them, which is something you can't say about table saws as those things are front, left, and center of everything that's not exclusively hand tool woodworking. Also, sheet goods are a good example of a situation where it makes sense to bring the tool to the material instead of the other way around. Manhandling a full 8x4 sheet of plywood is going to be a major hassle regardless of how nice your table saw is. Ninja edit: In addition to what Leperflesh said, I think it was Chris Schwarz who said something like how we don't experience furniture through calipers. Aiming for a machinist's level of precision is kinda pointless, chasing fractions of a millimeter that you can't see or feel is just not necessary.
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Feb 24, 2021 01:27
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I have a 500lb cabinet saw and I have absolutely zero urge to run full sheets of plywood on it. It's dangerous as hell and often inaccurate. Makita track saw and Festool tracks is by far one of the best purchases I've ever made even for me in my primarily-powertool shop. In a primarily-handtool shop (maybe with a bandsaw as the main saw of the shop), it'd be even more worthwhile.
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Feb 24, 2021 02:16
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Tracksaws also let you do way more dumb poo poo like screw the track to a wall to cut a door opening really straight or cut things in place you could never move to a table saw.
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Feb 24, 2021 02:27
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I do the circular saw/straight edge thing as well, but will definitely be upgrading to a track saw at some point. I don't feel comfortable nor have the space to deal with large sheet goods on my cabinet saw. Update on my combo machine...straightedge finally arrived so I checked everything and it was coplaner/parallel to .003" which seems good enough for woodworking and I don't want to have to deal with making a bunch of adjustments if I make it worse trying to make it better. Going to try and check it every 6 months to make sure it's not getting worse, but from talking to some people with similar machines they generally stay put. Using it is really nice, helical head leaves a great finish, it's quiet and there's plenty of power. I have been attempting to think about my workflow so Im not stuck doing a changeover for one board and so far so good. I do need a bandsaw soon though, hoping those get in stock again. I had to cut a curve in some 1/2" cherry so I tried my scrollsaw and it's a total pice of poo poo. The arms aren't in line so the blade doesn't stay in line, I thought my cherry was going to catch on fire there was so much smoke from the blade rubbing through the cut. Meow Meow Meow fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 02:56
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Ok table saw opponents: Can you link the least expensive (new) bandsaw that you'd tolerate in your tablesaw-less shop? (I know I seem like I keep challenging you guys on this point, but it's more that I'm intrigued - I've been around table saws since before I could walk, so they seem to me to be the default tool around which a woodworking space is built)
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Feb 24, 2021 03:16
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Hypnolobster posted:I have a 500lb cabinet saw and I have absolutely zero urge to run full sheets of plywood on it. It's dangerous as hell and often inaccurate. Makita track saw and Festool tracks is by far one of the best purchases I've ever made even for me in my primarily-powertool shop. In a primarily-handtool shop (maybe with a bandsaw as the main saw of the shop), it'd be even more worthwhile. My cabinet maker friend cuts full sheets on his saw and it's fast, accurate, and safe. Maybe there's more than one way to do things?
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Feb 24, 2021 03:18
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CommonShore posted:I've never used a track saw either but from what I've seen and read, they tend to be plunge cut and the saw is attached to the track, and set up so that the edge of the track is your cut line so you just plop the track's edge on your line and zip zip, whereas if you're using a circular saw with a straight edge you need to do more measurements to line it up (in my case, the straight edge has to be 4 7/8 inches away from the line, yes I made a template to speed up that alignment). And also they have way better dust collection, but the big difference IMO that you don’t appreciate until you use one is they have speed control, so you get a much cleaner cut (and soft start is nice too).
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Feb 24, 2021 03:23
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