|
Thirteen Orphans posted:Are you Church of Satan, Satanic Temple, or other? An excellent question! I started with Anton LaVey's writings/philosophy, so remain primarily founded in Church of Satan. When I was a child, and into my adolescence, I grew up in both Catholic tradition and Evangelical denominations of many stripes; Souther Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. Long story short, I was dissatisfied with all of them and I realized that the primary "product" these religions were "selling" was the catharsis of relief from guilt and that most of them were geared towards the production of this guilt. Of course, mileage varies per practicioner, and socioeconomic factors all contribute to peoples' experiences with churches and congregations, but as a product of a small town, I feel a lot of guilt a lot of the time. Reading my illicit copy of The Satanic Bible with a flashlight under my sheets was a sort of revelation that I could do good works of my own volition because it made me feel good, and that I wasn't obligated to the hateful religious zealots that surrounded me just because Jesus said so. Now, as a more politically-aware and active adult, I find LaVey's whole deal kind of embarrassing in many respects, and involvement the Satanic Temple seems like the natural progression, as they use religion as a vehicle of political change. That said, I am also extremely lazy and haven't officially joined the Satanic Temple. However, I support what they do. Also, I think the rituals and magical elements of the Church of Satan are a lot of fun. Edit: The "other," I think, is devil worship, which is by-and-large, to be avoided. Most devil-worship is also grounded in white supremacy and, unfortunately, there's a lot of overlap with white supremacists and "satanism." Night10194 posted:Are you worshiping Satan as God's prosecuting attorney or the 'lives in hell' style (presumably as something other than the prince of evil, because I'm pretty sure Satanism doesn't worship Satan as being a bad dude)? If the latter, is there any incorporation of the former and the way Satan appears in the Old Testament? Another excellent question. Neither. Satanists don't worship Satan as a theistic entity or idea. We worship the best parts of humanity as exemplified by the romantic notion of Satan put forth by the likes of Milton. Anton LaVey created Satanism as a direct rebuttal to what he saw was the wasteful, and often hypocritical, excesses of Catholicism and Evangelicalism of his time. A lot of his stuff is hokey or even irrelevant, now, but the idea of being unapologetically human, and endeavoring to be the best human one can be is still appealing to me. Many goons will write off Satanism as "religious Objectivism," and they're not entirely wrong, but not entirely accurate, either. It's more accurate to say that it's The Golden Rule of "do unto others as you would have done unto you," with the caveat that you don't need to feel guilt over "doing unto others as they have done to you," or indulging in purely selfish pursuits. Edit 2: Satanism can also be better described as "secular humanism with fun robes and groovy rituals" CarpenterWalrus fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Feb 24, 2021 |
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 00:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:15 |
|
|
For what it's worth, I got started in "non-traditional" religious philosophy when I bought a copy of the Principia Discordia, and will also field questions about Discordianism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:For what it's worth, I got started in "non-traditional" religious philosophy when I bought a copy of the Principia Discordia, and will also field questions about Discordianism. Hail Eris. drat I hope I didn’t throw out my copy of the Principia when I moved. I bet it’s in storage.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 00:54
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:Another excellent question. Neither. Satanists don't worship Satan as a theistic entity or idea. We worship the best parts of humanity as exemplified by the romantic notion of Satan put forth by the likes of Milton. Anton LaVey created Satanism as a direct rebuttal to what he saw was the wasteful, and often hypocritical, excesses of Catholicism and Evangelicalism of his time. A lot of his stuff is hokey or even irrelevant, now, but the idea of being unapologetically human, and endeavoring to be the best human one can be is still appealing to me. Many goons will write off Satanism as "religious Objectivism," and they're not entirely wrong, but not entirely accurate, either. It's more accurate to say that it's The Golden Rule of "do unto others as you would have done unto you," with the caveat that you don't need to feel guilt over "doing unto others as they have done to you," or indulging in purely selfish pursuits. I don't mean this in the sense of 'do you really believe in Satan' etc., but rather that this is an interesting contrast to my own dabbling in neo-paganism as a younger centaur. I had no real problems with anything they were saying and I genuinely enjoyed the rituals and a lot of the philosophy, but it seemed as if nobody really believed in what they were doing. There was this certain sense of anxious, ironic insincerity that kept me from really engaging.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 00:56
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Do you think there is anything to the ritual practice other than secular humanism with some performance art? Absolutely! The ritual magic is really what sets Church of Satan apart from even other Satanic groups like Temple of Satan. This question really gets at the core of what ritual is: the good ones break down that anxious insincerity. Even though I'm not a Catholic, I find Mass to be really emotionally affective. Same thing with the whipped-up fervor I used to feel when I would go to Evangelical revivals. It's all meant to focus everyone's spiritual "energy," for lack of a better term, to achieve a singular purpose. Ritual often comes before belief, I find, and is an excellent vehicle for fostering that belief. Without getting too much in the weeds, the primary difference between "Right-Hand" ritual like Catholic mass, and "Left-Hand" ritual like the Satanic Black Mass, the target of that focused belief is what or whom you're trying to commune with. For "Right-Hand" religions, you're trying to become more closely aligned with the religious ideal, or god-head; God, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. For "Left-Hand" religions, you're trying to improve what is already at the core of yourself; trying to become the god-head. This is why the trappings of the robes, incense, music, candles, altar, and the naked lady on the altar are so important--not in and of themselves, but because they make it easier to buy into the whole scenario and forget how doofy it is. Edit: When people point out how silly the trappings of the Satanic rituals are, I point out the opulence and garb of Catholic churches and clergy. Not as a "whatabout" kind of thing, but to illustrate how affective they are in inspiring belief. I was lucky enough to be able to tour the Vatican and papal residence in 2013 and it's difficult not to believe in Catholicism while you're there in the seat of its power. People underestimate aesthetics in religion, and LaVey specifically recognized it as important to Satanism. CarpenterWalrus fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Feb 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 01:28
|
|
|
Thirteen Orphans posted:Hail Eris. drat I hope I didn’t throw out my copy of the Principia when I moved. I bet it’s in storage. Hell yeah, my dude. I was 19 when I got heavy into Discordianism and I'm sure it was loving annoying to most people around me. I successfully started a religious-based student organization at the state college I was attending at the time to eat hot dogs and drink a bunch of wine as part of the religious meetings. I got away with it because I was able to show them in the text where it said that was part of the requirements and no one wanted even a hint of lawsuit in TYOL 2005. Still, I took it seriously and managed to get three other people to join my branch of the POEE and, for a while, we had a good time coming up with offices, titles, and holy names while getting sloppy on cheap wine.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 01:33
|
|
|
Welcome to the thread CarpenterWalrus. Do you have any silly hats in your ceremonies? As a Catholic, I hear a lot about Satanism taking ceremonial rituals from Catholicism in particular. In your experience, is there a similar drawing from other faiths? It always struck me that the Eastern liturgies have more of the pomp and opulence that you mention. Also, are Satanists properly speaking atheists? Or is it more of a dualism?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
Worthleast posted:Welcome to the thread CarpenterWalrus. Do you have any silly hats in your ceremonies? Thanks! I've always been a religion nerd and minored in religious study in college, so a thread like this is catnip to me, and I'm glad I found it. I have many silly hats, none of which I've used for religious ritual. The parallels drawn to Catholicism are fair--Satanic rituals often involve a priest directing the ceremony around an altar, with robes, a chalice, incense, and organ music, etc. It's not a direct one-for-one, but since LaVey was developing his philosophy as "blasphemies" of the popular Christian sects of his time, some aspects are mirrored. Ultimately, the rituals aren't as important to Satanism as they are to Catholicism, so it's rare to find Satanic adherents who are into it. The Satanists I've met are all atheist with varying interest in the more occult aspects. Honestly, I think it's the aesthetic and the "freaking out the squares" that appeals to a lot of us. I'm not above being an edgelord so far as that goes, on occasion, but for the most part neither hide nor flaunt my association with Satanism. LaVey himself argued that even though there's no belief in deities or theistic entities, Satanism qualifies as a religion because of how it places the individual practitioner as the "god-head" of his or her or their own spiritual ideal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:22
|
|
|
On the subject of silly hats, there's an OTO/Thelema temple in my neighborhood that has services every Sunday. This thread may be the excuse I need to do a trip report for (once I've got the vaccine).
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:A bunch of interesting stuff Welcome to thread and thanks for sharing, this is all super interesting
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 03:22
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:I haven't seen anyone mention Satanism in previous pages, so I'll be the resident Satanist. AMA, spiritual fellows How often do people tell you to get behind them?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 04:31
|
|
|
White Coke posted:How often do people tell you to get behind them? Lol, very rarely; I'm more of a lead-from-the-front kind of guy and, while I am an agent of Satan, my duties are largely ceremonial.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 04:36
|
|
|
me, catching up on religionthread: a Satanist? oh no me, a few posts later: not bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 04:40
|
|
|
Welcome CarpenterWalrus! Is there not, or did there not use be, 'theistic satanists', who worship a more classic ideal of Satan as the Anti-God? I could have sworn I heard about this back when I was checking out satanism myself, but it's like twenty years ago and I can't remember.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 07:22
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:Honestly, I think it's the aesthetic and the "freaking out the squares" that appeals to a lot of us. Are you old enough to remember the "Satanic Panic"? I'm curious how it was viewed from the other side.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 15:21
|
|
|
Worthleast posted:Are you old enough to remember the "Satanic Panic"? I'm curious how it was viewed from the other side. I was a child in the 90's, but from a small, rural town of about 4000 people. Catholicism and Southern Baptism were the most prominent denominations and you better believe I was told about the dangers of D&D, Magic: The Gathering, Pokémon, comic books, Halloween, rock and roll, black people, games that used dice or cards, etc. As a kid, the things the angry adults were telling me were scary, but the games/music/people themselves weren't scary at all and were kind of cool. This dissonance is probably the first domino that eventually led to a crisis of faith in my late teens and embrace of non-theism in my adulthood. Take note, parents who want to keep their kids away from "evil" or "satanic" pop-culture: if you make it forbidden and dangerous, you're making it tempting. Eventually your children will find out these things are harmless and destroy whatever confidence they may have had in whatever else you've told them about religion. If holy-rollers wanted to kill my interest in D&D, they would've done better to make me spend hours doing math to resolve one combat scenario. Praise the Lord and pass the Lego! From what I've read in this thread, I don't think any of you folks would do that, but still, it's worth saying. It's kind of wild seeing another Satanic Panic happening right now. I've never kept my religious beliefs hidden at work, but you can definitely tell who's becoming/become red-pilled with right-wing conspiracy by how they react to seeing a pentagram ring or Baphomet coffee mug. I had a Zoom meeting yesterday and one of my co-workers was apparently "scared" by a small Baphomet statue on shelf in my home office, and the pentagrams on a Perturbator poster on the wall. What can you do but shrug and move on with your business?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 18:13
|
|
|
Are you surprised that the trappings of a system specifically designed to subvert and blaspheme someone's entire worldview comes across as frightening? Especially when said individual believes in a spiritual realm, replete with demons. Like yeah they're going to be scared, that's the whole point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
ThePopeOfFun posted:Are you surprised that the trappings of a system specifically designed to subvert and blaspheme someone's entire worldview comes across as frightening? Especially when said individual believes in a spiritual realm, replete with demons. Like yeah they're going to be scared, that's the whole point. A good and fair point. I do my best to not be antagonistic, for what that's worth. I genuinely love religion as a whole, and I have personal grievances with institutions and how religion's used moreso than with individual believers, so when someone reacts adversely to my own expression of belief, I shrug it off. In the last office job I worked at, I was pulled into HR to discuss my pentagram ring and my response was, "what religions are employees allowed to have here?" The official company response was that religious iconography was banned from the office, but was never enforced, and no one ever bothered me about it again. There's really no reason people can't be adults about this kind of thing, especially since it's been a while since we've burned a witch in the US.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 18:53
|
|
|
I feel you. I asked that as a huge metal head. Like, I can handle pentagrams and decay and goats, but I know better than to wear it to grandma's. That being said, I have a theory that metal dons the scary trappings to frighten away the kind of people who harmed others during the satanic panic. I also think your brand of Satanism brings up an interesting point, much like the Satanic Temple suing for not being allowed to have Satan after-school programs. In one's workplace, would crosses be allowed? Depends where you are. And depending on your experience or perspective, crosses might indeed be terrifying. But with Christian Nationalism going ham all over the US, why are we more worried about a goat? As a protest vehicle, it's wildly effective because it does indeed touch at the core worldviews inherent to much oppression. At least as far as whiteness is concerned.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 19:05
|
|
|
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but wait - since when are pentagrams seen as explicitly satanist? I was under the impression that they're more for magic in a general sense. Which still frightens the hardcore christians*, but it's not explicitly satan-related. *I remember my dad refusing to buy Magic the Gathering cards and Dungeons and Dragons for me and my brother as preteens due to links with occult stuff. He's lightened up since then a lot, but the satanic panic was real for him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
ThePopeOfFun posted:I feel you. I asked that as a huge metal head. Like, I can handle pentagrams and decay and goats, but I know better than to wear it to grandma's. That being said, I have a theory that metal dons the scary trappings to frighten away the kind of people who harmed others during the satanic panic. For sure, and I don't want to give the impression that I've ever experienced religious persecution at all or to position myself as some kind of victim in any way because of what I believe. I think you've hit the nail on the head with regard to the aesthetics of that whole scene and, to be honest, I dig that. The things I wear are going to be provocative to some people sometimes and I accept it. I just never want to be one of those people who go looking to start fights with people over stuff like that. StrixNebulosa posted:Forgive me if this has been asked before, but wait - since when are pentagrams seen as explicitly satanist? I was under the impression that they're more for magic in a general sense. Which still frightens the hardcore christians*, but it's not explicitly satan-related. I believe it started with LaVey's development and use of the Leviathan symbol, the Baphomet goat head and enochian runes around the points, in the 1960's that kicked off that association. Otherwise, the pentagram was used throughout medieval and rennaisance as a symbol of material wealth and fortune, and used in Wicca as a symbol of protection.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
I mean, I don't like the M:tG cards with pentagrams and dripping blood and stuff, but so far I haven't encountered a card with unpleasant-to-me-personally artwork that I actually want to use that doesn't have a less-unpleasant reprint. Being aware that the intent is to shock and dismay and blaspheme doesn't make it not make me feel uneasy.  (I do think it's hilarious that D&D's healing magic works the way it does because Gary Gygax was a Jehovah's Witness - that is, healing being exclusively clerical wasn't just to differentiate Priests from Mages.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 19:57
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:I genuinely love religion as a whole, and I have personal grievances with institutions and how religion's used moreso than with individual believers, so when someone reacts adversely to my own expression of belief, I shrug it off. Comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. Is Satanism more common in the US than elsewhere?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
Worthleast posted:Comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. I don't know, but I would think so, if for no other reason than Anton LaVey was American, and founded his system in opposition to American brands of Christianity. I would put money down that the Satanic Temple has more popular support than the Church of Satan for a number of reasons, but not least of which are their commitment to high-visibility good works.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 20:35
|
|
|
i always forget, which satan church is it that's run by a bunch of crypto-nazi type people. anyway, avoid that one, they sound bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 23:03
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:In the last office job I worked at, I was pulled into HR to discuss my pentagram ring and my response was, "what religions are employees allowed to have here?" The official company response was that religious iconography was banned from the office, but was never enforced, and no one ever bothered me about it again. It's worth being aware that such a ban is illegal in most circumstances.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 23:20
|
|
|
Tias posted:Welcome CarpenterWalrus! There absolutely are. I read up on it many years ago now when LaVeyan Satanism didn't do it for me. They're vaguely Gnostic in that they view the traditional monotheistic God as a tyrant. After all, what's wrong with knowledge? All the Serpent wanted to do was teach Eve and Adam about the knowledge of good and evil. They aren't really Devil worshippers, though. They believed all the "Adversary" figures from different religions were one and that is what they worshipped. This is what I read like a decade ago now, anyway. And of course with non-traditional faiths like this, there is no canon. I probably read just the view of one or two sects and who knows what others think.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 23:56
|
|
|
Dang, I'm bummed I missed that question. Thanks, NikkolasKing! That's a good answer and, to add something, these are the folks who tend towards the Romantic, Milton ideal of Satan as the tragic hero. I don't know much more than that about them, but they seem mostly ok. Sometimes they're self-serious, but WHOMST AMONG USLutha Mahtin posted:i always forget, which satan church is it that's run by a bunch of crypto-nazi type people. anyway, avoid that one, they sound bad You're probably thinking of the Order of Nine Angles, which isn't even crypto-nazi. They're full on Nazi fucks. Anything that's got a whiff of Nine Angles is to be vehemently rejected, by everyone. CarpenterWalrus fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Feb 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:17
|
|
|
my mom just informed me her church has to-go communion kits. there's 2 little pouches you peel back, one for the bread and one for the wine e: update, she also says "last time i had run out of the to-go packs so i used an almond cracker and a swig of kombucha"
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 01:24
|
|
|
CarpenterWalrus posted:Take note, parents who want to keep their kids away from "evil" or "satanic" pop-culture: if you make it forbidden and dangerous, you're making it tempting. Eventually your children will find out these things are harmless and destroy whatever confidence they may have had in whatever else you've told them about religion. If holy-rollers wanted to kill my interest in D&D, they would've done better to make me spend hours doing math to resolve one combat scenario. Praise the Lord and pass the Lego! Seems like most people who lose their faith, at least in America, start by questioning human authority figures in some way, either because they've been taught a world view that collapses once some part of it is disproved like Young Earth Creationism, or the authorities do something utterly reprehensible like covering up sexual abuse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 06:27
|
|
|
When a human authority figure, or organization, claims to speak with the authority of the divine, then is shown to be complicit in mosterous abuse of power, it shakes people.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 07:08
|
|
|
Lutha Mahtin posted:my mom just informed me her church has to-go communion kits. there's 2 little pouches you peel back, one for the bread and one for the wine That is some serious transsubstantiation right there
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 12:26
|
|
|
What do Satanists believe about hell? If someone is a bad Satanist, are they sent to heaven?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 13:16
|
|
|
White Coke posted:Seems like most people who lose their faith, at least in America, start by questioning human authority figures in some way, either because they've been taught a world view that collapses once some part of it is disproved like Young Earth Creationism, or the authorities do something utterly reprehensible like covering up sexual abuse. I lost my faith in my teens as I began to discover that I'm queer, have queer and trans friends, and the religion sure wasn't comfortable with this. I was in a Methodist church at the time, and remember at least a few sundays where I would argue with an otherwise really sweet old lady about being gay and going to hell. Toss in stuff like leviticus (love 2 know that my time of month makes me unclean) and I went through several phases. Currently I've landed at an agnostic/athiest stance, and don't interact with religion except to learn about it. (As it's fascinating! I'm listening to The History of Christian Theology currently!) To be more elaborate: I think the overall teachings of Jesus are good. Be kind to each other. Take no poo poo from authorities. Have faith in a higher power that there is a greater good, a greater purpose. Be a moral person. These are universal and worth living by. However, I just...don't have that faith in a higher power. I would like to believe there's something better out there, but I can't for whatever reason - and at this point I'm okay with that. God may or may not exist, but it's worthwhile to be good anyways. So I'm agnostic in that I don't know if there's anything out there and have nothing against Christianity, and athiest in that in my heart I don't believe there is anything, and either way I don't go to church and that's okay. I live an upright life and do my best. And typing this up I remembered one other thing that impacted my faith when I was young: my grandparents were devout Baptists and as my mom isn't very religious - she'll go to church but believes more in a mother earth and such - my grandparents were deeply concerned for her soul. Hearing that and wondering if my mom would go to hell sure was a Thing to think about. By the tenants of their faith, it's good to want to make sure mom goes to heaven, but to those who aren't in it, that's deeply weird and upsetting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 15:08
|
|
|
To be honest... one my deepest regrets in life is when I unironically, completely sincerely, told a gay woman who I considered a friend that she was the bigot for not tolerating my intolerance. When that didn't immediately explode her brain and make her convert to a straight Christian housewife stereotype, and deeply hurt her and other friends I had to an extent that we fell out of contact and no apology can make up for things... that was when I decided that I was done with hyperconservative fundie Christianity as taught by the Southern Baptist Convention, and with being a Republican as I'd been raised to be. I'm still a devout Christian, but I'm a very different kind of Christian now than I was back then. https://i.imgur.com/Ak5gZnP.mp4
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
Worthleast posted:What do Satanists believe about hell? If someone is a bad Satanist, are they sent to heaven? legit lol'd over here. No, most Satanists are atheist, so no reward or punishment other than what you experience up top. You make your own Heaven and Hell on Earth!
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
StrixNebulosa posted:To be more elaborate: I think the overall teachings of Jesus are good. Be kind to each other. Take no poo poo from authorities. Have faith in a higher power that there is a greater good, a greater purpose. Be a moral person. These are universal and worth living by. However, I just...don't have that faith in a higher power. I would like to believe there's something better out there, but I can't for whatever reason - and at this point I'm okay with that. God may or may not exist, but it's worthwhile to be good anyways. Just about any religion with a moral code is going to have at least some of that moral code expressible as "be good to each other". Maybe that's because God's law is written on our hearts, maybe it's because communities hold together better when they direct their members to treat each other well, but either way I don't think it's accurate to say that anything like that sums up the teachings of Jesus. I mean, to quote the conversation I was having with ThePopeOfFun in the discord, "Jesus isn't nice, and he routinely causes crowds to want to kill him," to which I replied, "and it doesn't seem like he's anti-authority so much as the authorities didn't like him," and, really, if you think about it, somebody who presents himself as the fulfillment of all the prophets the local religion has had, who sends his followers absolutely destitute into villages expecting them to get fed and housed for free while they teach, who draws big crowds without unambiguously affiliating himself with any kind of authority is, at the minimum, somebody to keep a very close eye on, and if you're the governor of a fractious foreign province you might decide just to attach the guy to a tall pole so it's easier to keep an eye on him. Put another way, I think everybody (in this thread, in the world, every everybody) should be a practicing Catholic, but, failing that, I'd rather somebody say, "We worship the best parts of humanity as exemplified by the romantic notion of Satan put forth by the likes of Milton," than "I follow the teachings of Jesus, but only the ones that everyone from every religion also accepts," because at least then there's a conversation to have, I guess? CarpenterWalrus posted:Absolutely! The ritual magic is really what sets Church of Satan apart from even other Satanic groups like Temple of Satan. This question really gets at the core of what ritual is: the good ones break down that anxious insincerity. Even though I'm not a Catholic, I find Mass to be really emotionally affective. Same thing with the whipped-up fervor I used to feel when I would go to Evangelical revivals. It's all meant to focus everyone's spiritual "energy," for lack of a better term, to achieve a singular purpose. Ritual often comes before belief, I find, and is an excellent vehicle for fostering that belief. Without getting too much in the weeds, the primary difference between "Right-Hand" ritual like Catholic mass, and "Left-Hand" ritual like the Satanic Black Mass, the target of that focused belief is what or whom you're trying to commune with. For "Right-Hand" religions, you're trying to become more closely aligned with the religious ideal, or god-head; God, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. For "Left-Hand" religions, you're trying to improve what is already at the core of yourself; trying to become the god-head. This is why the trappings of the robes, incense, music, candles, altar, and the naked lady on the altar are so important--not in and of themselves, but because they make it easier to buy into the whole scenario and forget how doofy it is. Like this, this is the kind of conversation I mean. HEY GUNS and I have been insisting for at least four iterations of this thread that ritual isn't the seasoning you sprinkle on top of your religious life (where some people like more and some people like less and some people just leave it off) but is instead absolutely central to it, and along comes somebody who is definitely not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, saying, "Ritual often comes before belief, I find, and is an excellent vehicle for fostering that belief," which is a pretty good translation of "lex orandi, lex credendi," in my opinion.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 20:13
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:HEY GUNS and I have been insisting for at least four iterations of this thread that ritual isn't the seasoning you sprinkle on top of your religious life (where some people like more and some people like less and some people just leave it off) but is instead absolutely central to it HEY GUNS' stating the centrality of ritual to his faith actually caused me to reconsider and discard a metaphor I'd been using for ecumenism that I'm sure came off as incredibly hurtful. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2021 03:08
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:Like this, this is the kind of conversation I mean. HEY GUNS and I have been insisting for at least four iterations of this thread that ritual isn't the seasoning you sprinkle on top of your religious life (where some people like more and some people like less and some people just leave it off) but is instead absolutely central to it, and along comes somebody who is definitely not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, saying, "Ritual often comes before belief, I find, and is an excellent vehicle for fostering that belief," which is a pretty good translation of "lex orandi, lex credendi," in my opinion. I find myself going back to these lines from the history of Christian thought quite a lot:. “Now I repeat: reality precedes thought. But I repeat also: thought shapes reality. These two are interdependent. You cannot abstract the one from the other.“ What I would say to "lex orandi, lex credendi," is that even before liturgy were people living lives following Jesus. I guess I mean don’t leave off, lex vivendi. We live as Christians first (reality precedes thought) but ritual and liturgy shape how we live as Christians.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:15 |
|
|
zonohedron posted:Like this, this is the kind of conversation I mean. HEY GUNS and I have been insisting for at least four iterations of this thread that ritual isn't the seasoning you sprinkle on top of your religious life (where some people like more and some people like less and some people just leave it off) but is instead absolutely central to it, and along comes somebody who is definitely not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, saying, "Ritual often comes before belief, I find, and is an excellent vehicle for fostering that belief," which is a pretty good translation of "lex orandi, lex credendi," in my opinion. This was very easy for me to come to as a child, of course, because the religious examples I had were either Catholics or vaguely observant Jews.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2021 04:31
|
|