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I consider the pomp and circumstance of Catholic ritual to be its greatest strength. I, personally, have known a few agnostics who've full-on converted to Catholicism because of the appeal of the rituals. I think if Catholic leadership leaned into its aesthetic, it could attract a lot of Millennials/ Gen Z who're looking to slot into that spiritual infrastructure.
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Feb 26, 2021 07:44
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CarpenterWalrus posted:I consider the pomp and circumstance of Catholic ritual to be its greatest strength. I, personally, have known a few agnostics who've full-on converted to Catholicism because of the appeal of the rituals. I think if Catholic leadership leaned into its aesthetic, it could attract a lot of Millennials/ Gen Z who're looking to slot into that spiritual infrastructure. I don't think that's likely until the Church stops having another round of 'we found more documentation of the abuse clergy was doing that you've been hiding' every six months. That's pretty much the biggest thing young people these days not raised Catholic know about the Church. Edit: Also, you know, being doctrinally homophobic, transphobic, and opposed to the bodily autonomy of women. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 09:57
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Liquid Communism posted:I don't think that's likely until the Church stops having another round of 'we found more documentation of the abuse clergy was doing that you've been hiding' every six months. That's pretty much the biggest thing young people these days not raised Catholic know about the Church. At least from the liberal Protestant communities I'm in, not letting women into the priesthood and giving them equal spiritual status with men is another sticking point. I have one friend at work who was raised Catholic, and says she converted to Methodism specifically because it was a faith that said God loves her the same as he loves any man. https://i.imgur.com/p7tDhau.mp4
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Feb 26, 2021 13:36
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CarpenterWalrus posted:I consider the pomp and circumstance of Catholic ritual to be its greatest strength. I, personally, have known a few agnostics who've full-on converted to Catholicism because of the appeal of the rituals. I think if Catholic leadership leaned into its aesthetic, it could attract a lot of Millennials/ Gen Z who're looking to slot into that spiritual infrastructure. I think you're right about the attraction potential, and I also think that experiencing the Church's rituals sincerely and regularly really could produce sincere conversion- someone who's open to experiencing numinous experiences, who experiences them in a Catholic context, is likely to find it easier to make the choice to accept the Church's teachings. (Really, to accept the Church's teaching authority, more than the teachings specifically.) But many, many people my generation and younger (I'm an older Millennial) will find a lot of things the Church teaches to be very hard to accept, and that's hard for a potential convert, because converts don't often see how hard cradle Catholics find it. (Or how much cradle Catholics just ignore teachings they find hard, whether that's "capital punishment is unnecessary to protect a community and is in practice discriminatory, unjust, and cruel besides, so Catholics must not support it," "marriage is only possible between a man and a woman," or "slaughtering a goat and examining its entrails for omens is unacceptable in every circumstance.") It also upsets some people that punching a priest can result in an automatic excommunication, whereas being a slumlord, turning someone away for a vaccine because they're not a legal resident, or denying someone necessary medical treatment do not.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:40
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Of course, there's lots of reasons why people SHOULD be uncomfortable with the Catholic Church right now, not least of which are those listed posted above. The contradictory, often hypocritical nature of how some things are considered sins vs others is extremely off-putting to most people who think about it. I don't want to poo poo on religions or religious adherents too much, though, so I'll leave it at that.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:49
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CarpenterWalrus posted:I consider the pomp and circumstance of Catholic ritual to be its greatest strength. I, personally, have known a few agnostics who've full-on converted to Catholicism because of the appeal of the rituals. I think if Catholic leadership leaned into its aesthetic, it could attract a lot of Millennials/ Gen Z who're looking to slot into that spiritual infrastructure. This is driving a great deal of the Latin Mass trend in the Catholic Church. Liquid Communism posted:I don't think that's likely until the Church stops having another round of 'we found more documentation of the abuse clergy was doing that you've been hiding' every six months. That's pretty much the biggest thing young people these days not raised Catholic know about the Church. Public penance for bishops please.
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Feb 26, 2021 17:40
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Liquid Communism posted:
Counterpoint to that is that the mainline protestant churches have fully embraced all of that and are still having declining attendance numbers.
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Feb 26, 2021 18:16
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:Counterpoint to that is that the mainline protestant churches have fully embraced all of that and are still having declining attendance numbers. But not with extravagant ritual, and definitely not in a liturgical language, so it's possible they could poach potential converts with high-church positions on sacraments, liturgy, and the like. Have a coffee shop in your church atrium because everyone's hungry after fasting three hours! Sell incense sticks 'guaranteed' to make your home altar smell like church!
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Feb 26, 2021 19:21
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:Counterpoint to that is that the mainline protestant churches have fully embraced all of that and are still having declining attendance numbers. Examining underlying factors on why the evangelical/shithead churches appear to have thrived, while other churches are holding steady or declining in attendance, is an interesting potential project and may have already been done in some cases. I would imagine it has more to do with using modern sales techniques plus a certain, shall we say, doctrinal flexibility, than with the density or intensity of their scandals and human rights abuses, though.
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Feb 26, 2021 20:03
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Speaking personally I ain't gonna lie the rituals and grandeur are a notable reason why I'm building off childhood interaction with Catholicism as an adult. And the fairly cool seeming Pope, and the concept of Catholicism that merges with my politics via liberation theology. So thanks for the pointer to that church in SF. It's gonna be a bear for me to attend that on the regular but for getting connected to communities that aren't arch-conservative that looks like just what I wanted.
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Feb 27, 2021 03:01
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I found this FAQ and it claims the official position of the Catholic Church is that it won't confirm whether anyone specific is in Hell. How long has this been the position of the church?
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Feb 27, 2021 06:03
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White Coke posted:I found this FAQ and it claims the official position of the Catholic Church is that it won't confirm whether anyone specific is in Hell. How long has this been the position of the church? Always as far as I know. The Church will say when people are in Heaven (when people are declared saints) but who knows who is in hell.
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Feb 27, 2021 07:00
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I was actually involved in a related discussion on Facebook today, about whether there's such a thing as unforgivable sin. I used the example of Judas and pointed out that one of the gospels says Judas repented, and it's within what we know of Jesus's character to believe that he would forgive Judas. Does this mean Judas is in heaven, or is what he did unforgivable despite repentence?
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Feb 27, 2021 07:08
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Nothing is unforgivable, except "sin against the Holy Spirit". It's debatable what that means, but given that repentance itself is a sign of Holy Spirit working with and within us, it's kinda academical question anyway.
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Feb 27, 2021 10:21
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Judas kind of distills down the entire predestination narrative in a sense, doesn't he? Isn't he a saint in the Coptic canon or something like that?
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Feb 27, 2021 11:16
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SuperKlaus posted:Speaking personally I ain't gonna lie the rituals and grandeur are a notable reason why I'm building off childhood interaction with Catholicism as an adult. And the fairly cool seeming Pope, and the concept of Catholicism that merges with my politics via liberation theology. I take the Pope with a grain of salt. He uses the language of social justice, but is doctrinaire, and the hierarchy in the Vatican that interprets his statements into policy is arch conservative to a fault.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:37
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TOOT BOOT posted:I was actually involved in a related discussion on Facebook today, about whether there's such a thing as unforgivable sin. I used the example of Judas and pointed out that one of the gospels says Judas repented, and it's within what we know of Jesus's character to believe that he would forgive Judas. Does this mean Judas is in heaven, or is what he did unforgivable despite repentence? Judas' betrayal was necessary. He repented. I have no problem with him going straight to Heaven. I'm more interested in the Bad Robber crucified next to Jesus. When Jesus clearly say to the Good Robber that they will go to Heaven together, what happened to the Bad Robber? My headcanon is Jesus and GR on their way to Heaven. Jesus turns around and shouts "Hey, BR? Don't you want to come with?" BR finally feels forgiven and loved, able to forgive himself, and all three of them enter Heaven together.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:53
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BattyKiara posted:Judas' betrayal was necessary. He repented. I have no problem with him going straight to Heaven. I'm more interested in the Bad Robber crucified next to Jesus. When Jesus clearly say to the Good Robber that they will go to Heaven together, what happened to the Bad Robber? Well he does ask Jesus "If thou be the Christ, save thyself and us". So it seems like there could be a door opened there. If he were saved, he surely has paid for his crimes by suffering a bad reputation throughout history.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:35
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BattyKiara posted:Judas' betrayal was necessary. He repented. I have no problem with him going straight to Heaven. I'm more interested in the Bad Robber crucified next to Jesus. When Jesus clearly say to the Good Robber that they will go to Heaven together, what happened to the Bad Robber? I like C. S. Lewis' construct, that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. It's not a permanent place, but rather a holding cell for people who haven't acknowledged the sovereignty of God. They can leave whenever they like. Not exactly a Purgatory, because residents only have to admit their own sinfulness and unworthiness to leave. There would be no penance to be paid, for example. So Heaven is attainable for all, even those who die unrepentant. I don't have to concern myself with who gets in or not, as all can get in if they want to and are willing to meet the conditions. Beyond that, it's up to God, not me. God can extend his grace of salvation to whomever He wants to, it's no business of mine.
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Feb 27, 2021 17:08
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TOOT BOOT posted:I was actually involved in a related discussion on Facebook today, about whether there's such a thing as unforgivable sin. I used the example of Judas and pointed out that one of the gospels says Judas repented, and it's within what we know of Jesus's character to believe that he would forgive Judas. Does this mean Judas is in heaven, or is what he did unforgivable despite repentence? Grappling with whether Judas would be condemned to hell for his role in salvation sent me on my path to universalism.
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Feb 27, 2021 23:06
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Liquid Communism posted:I take the Pope with a grain of salt. He uses the language of social justice, but is doctrinaire, and the hierarchy in the Vatican that interprets his statements into policy is arch conservative to a fault. Well, I'm dipping toes in, anyway, and he looks like a good start for forward progress. Despite being overtly interested in the ritual and so forth I won't be taking the Pope as the ultimate authority 
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Feb 28, 2021 02:17
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Hi again religonthread! [TELL] me about this icon  I assume it is Saint's Michael and...Raphael? I found it last fall in the neighbourhood while walking the dog, and try as I might (posting on my town's lost and found boards on both Facebook and Reddit) I could not find its owner. It's made by a Greek company based on the label on the reverse but a handwritten note on the reverse, in Romanian, suggests it was given to a dear possibly younger person but a aunt or grandmother or whatever, on the event of whatever feasts day or event took place on the Sunday of June 21, 2019. I could find no names, so I will drop it off at the Romanian Orthodox church in town and hope it can either find its way back to the owner (its nice gold leaf after all) or be given to another. So anyway, the question: what purpose does this icon serve, what is it used for, what do those fine angelic types represent, etc. I'd like to know more about this little thing on my desk.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:11
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Bilirubin posted:Hi again religonthread! A quick google suggests that the angel on the left is definitely Michael, who's depicted in some Orthodox traditions with a sword and scroll. It's fascinating to me because I'd associate the scroll with Gabriel. Can't see what the right-hand angel has in his left hand! Raphael has a staff sometimes though. I hope an Orthogoon can shed light, I love angel pictures, even when they're not insane four-faced eyewheels.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:46
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Nth Doctor posted:Grappling with whether Judas would be condemned to hell for his role in salvation sent me on my path to universalism. It is a rather neat answer to the problem of double predestination.
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Mar 1, 2021 04:15
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I believe the one on the right is supposed to be Gabriel. I found a more modern one on Google with Gabriel wearing the exact same outfit. He's supposed to be holding a disk, and his name would be over his shoulder, but that's been eroded away. As for what it's for, I think it's specifically for their shared feast day: the Synaxis of the Holy Archangels.
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Mar 1, 2021 15:50
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Messaged HEY GUNS about it:"Hey Guns” posted:These are Sts. Michael and Gabriel. They are called hoi hagioi taxiarchoi, “the holy brigadier generals,” because they lead the heavenly armies. Michael is on the left and Gabriel is on the right. Gabriel bears the staff of a Byzantine imperial messenger. Their position in this icon echoes their position on the screen in front of the altar in an Orthodox church, where they’d be painted on the doors. Since the altar faces east Michael is on the door to the north (the malign direction; he is a protector) and Gabriel on the door to the south (from which things come; he’s a messenger). I grew up culturally orthodox but was functionally lapsed for various reasons, so I just know that we have icons around, but can’t really describe the why exactly.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:58
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crazypeltast52 posted:Messaged HEY GUNS about it: Where is Guns? Why isn't he posting more?
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Mar 2, 2021 00:01
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crazypeltast52 posted:Messaged HEY GUNS about it: cool info, thanks!
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Mar 2, 2021 05:47
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It looks like the Archbishop of New Orleans has come out against the new coronavirus vaccine. Hopefully he will reconsider this position after taking advice from qualified experts.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:50
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That's taking a harder line than the Vatican and the SSPX even. Not going to save lives or souls that way.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:07
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Reading the statement, I don't think it absolutely prohibits the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. It strongly advises that you should get the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines instead if at all possible. That's pretty much my plan, given that I have the relative luxury of being both low-risk and able to live a lifestyle that presents very little risk of transmission to others.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:17
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Konstantin posted:It looks like the Archbishop of New Orleans has come out against the new coronavirus vaccine. Hopefully he will reconsider this position after taking advice from qualified experts. That doesn't make much sense to me, I'd say it's pretty far removed from what they feel is wrongdoing. I'm sure they've received plenty of money over the past ~2000 years that originated in crime, are they going to return that too? Probably not.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:24
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Two things surprised me about this article. One, the Archbishop is not anti-vax. That's how I read OP's comment, anyway.NO Archbishop posted:“In doing so, we advise that if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine is available, Catholics should choose to receive either of those vaccines rather than receive the new Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of its extensive use of abortion-derived cell lines.” Seems reasonable for an Archbishop, considering Catholic teaching. Second, regarding vaccine production. Article posted:They were made from eye cells from an 18-week-old fetus aborted in 1985, according to Science. Which strikes me as upsetting, but also contradicts common "parts factory" narratives. I don't know how to reconcile Catholic teaching and the above fact, but it's not something "experts" are going to be able to help an Archbishop on.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:32
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quote:“We maintain that the decision to receive the COVID-19 vaccine remains one of individual conscience in consultation with one’s healthcare provider,” the archdiocese wrote. “In doing so, we advise that if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine is available, Catholics should choose to receive either of those vaccines rather than receive the new Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of its extensive use of abortion-derived cell lines.” Seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:34
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:Where is Guns? Why isn't he posting more? He's doing fine, and hangs out on the discords, among them the one for this thread. Come say hi!
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Mar 3, 2021 08:12
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You shouldn't join or use discord. It's been funded by tencent a known arm of the chinese communist party.
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Mar 3, 2021 08:25
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Every once in a while, I see something that reminds me of how great and good God is. The first artist at work, and countless people spend their entire lives seeking glimpses of the great work He created. https://i.imgur.com/h8FZYh7.mp4 Beyond my chronic depression and view of faith in that light, this is one of the biggest reasons I believe in God. I cannot see the universe, in all its wonder and complexity, and believe that there was not a hand behind it all. God the creator, artist, and architect. All of science, all of human exploration, is chasing after His fingerprints and striving to understand how He set it all up. To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge. - Nicolaus Copernicus Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 15:51
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I self-identify as a Reformed Protestant, but more due to heritage/cultural inertia than theological grounds (to be honest, I often struggle with some parts of Reformed theology). I'd appreciate this thread insight on something that's been bugging me: I've been reading James 2 recently, and how do you explain sola fide next to James 2:17 "Faith that doesn't lead us to do good deeds is all alone and dead!" (and the next verses continue in the same spirit). I keep thinking about it and I can't find a satisfying answer. So I welcome any and all viewpoints on the subject.
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Mar 4, 2021 21:36
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Bourricot posted:I self-identify as a Reformed Protestant, but more due to heritage/cultural inertia than theological grounds (to be honest, I often struggle with some parts of Reformed theology). In general isn't an important part of most interpretations of Sola Fide that having actual faith will lead to you trying to be righteous anyway? Which would harmonize just fine with that bit.
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Mar 4, 2021 21:41
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Bourricot posted:I self-identify as a Reformed Protestant, but more due to heritage/cultural inertia than theological grounds (to be honest, I often struggle with some parts of Reformed theology). Faith is not an academic exercise that takes place inside your head. Faith should inspire you to love other people and help them get through life. Without that, your faith is pointless.
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Mar 4, 2021 21:46
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