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Jaeluni Asjil posted:So if JessFlaps is 'the answer' for the right, why did she stand down from the leadership election last year? Has she a closet full of skeletal remains? Plus her public appearances were shockingly bad. She made at least one speech that was pure waffle to the point where you read it back and it makes absolutely no sense.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:51
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sometimes you have to spend some time in the woods. hey, I only joined in 2017 - I have written some very well intentioned arguments for staying in the Labour party it's just they were predicated on "Corbyn didn't leave the party under Blair" and lol he did under starmer I had a comrade call me up to do some organising - someone who, like a lot of us, backed Corbyn not because he was his perfect candidate or ideologically ideal or anything but because he was the best shot in our lifetimes. it was hard to say I'd gone - we had a good craic and it reminded me that having antipathy for these people is profoundly uncomradely. and while I'd been in for three years some of these people have been trying to do this for decades and got a hell of a lot closer to building socialism and to normalizing our ideals than I have.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:52
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I feel people are just wasting energy that's going to be needed later. It's not like it's just Labour politics that are hosed. The whole nation is dysfunctional. No one is happy and no one knows what they even want. The worst of the gammons actually think any day now we're going to sail out with our battle fleet of 800 ships and colonise the world again. Any day now. How the gently caress is anything supposed to work when these are your voters?
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Feb 26, 2021 14:55
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there is no salvation in parliamentary politics, your time and money is better invested in local efforts and projects that will yield observable change in the lives of people around you
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Feb 26, 2021 14:58
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forkboy84 posted:See, I agree, violent revolution is a ludicrous fantasy in 21st century Britain. But the relevant point is it's barely more fantastical than the Labour Party being a force for socialism in 21st century Britain. I don't know how someone can look at the last 5 years and conclude anything else. It can't even be taken over from the left because the infrastructure is so infested with careerist rats who have shrines to Tony Blair in their bedrooms. The Labour Party took some 50 years to properly take power. Meanwhile, there was a splinter party just a couple of years ago that had a tranche of MPs and significant financial and media backing that is now already a hilarious footnote of history. And a left-wing takeover of the Labour Party is so impossible that it happened six years ago by people who never seriously thought they could be successful and had to scramble plans into place when they unexpectedly were. If you don't want to get involved, fine. I can't blame anyone not wanting to involve themselves in how rubbish Labour currently are. But stop making GBS threads up this thread calling people who are actually working to change things "not comrades" when your full contribution to the socialist ideal is whining that other people won't carry out your poorly-thought-out political plans for you. Comrade Fakename fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 14:59
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Comrade Fakename posted:And a left-wing takeover of the Labour Party is so impossible that it happened six years ago This is the thing it didn't, Corbyn was the leader but the left failed to take over the party even with him in charge.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:02
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there are days when I read about how awful the SNP is and think, Christ, why do we want independence when an independent Scotland is just going to be a neoliberal TERF fiefdom like an independent Catalonia could have been then there are days when I see how Kieth's Labour is destroying the last semblances of English democracy, and I think to myself, we have to get the gently caress away from these ghouls as soon as we can basically, Scotland is hosed no matter what
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Feb 26, 2021 15:06
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Comrade Fakename posted:In lighter news: Naomi here is parodying some US right wing twitter account who overhears 'Hillary democrat pizza sex pedo dungeons confirmed' in his local starbucks multiple times. Forget who it was
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Feb 26, 2021 15:07
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happyhippy posted:Naomi here is parodying some US right wing twitter account who overhears 'Hillary democrat pizza sex pedo dungeons confirmed' in his local starbucks multiple times. She is being roundly mocked on Twitter for this, deleted the tweet and hasn't come out and said it was just a joke, and judging by her feed has gone full covid-denier. It's real.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:13
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Venomous posted:basically, Scotland is hosed no matter what I hate excessive pessimism because I identify elements of myself in it. I've never understood eeyoring - it is what it is, you know? it's an ideal time to work on self improvement and make plans independent of the character and political stance of this nation, if possible. ideally from outside it.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:15
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just found out that my GP along with a whole load of others in my borough has recently been taken over by the Centene Corporation, a giant US health insurance firm lol
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Feb 26, 2021 15:16
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I mean as far as the SNP they seem to be the only party actually addressing transphobia in their party not by enough and far too late but still
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Feb 26, 2021 15:17
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kecske posted:just found out that my GP along with a whole load of others in my borough has recently been taken over by the Centene Corporation, a giant US health insurance firm lol CoolCab posted:ideally from outside it.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:19
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Comrade Fakename posted:The Labour Party took some 50 years to properly take power. Meanwhile, there was a splinter party just a couple of years ago that had a tranche of MPs and significant financial and media backing that is now already a hilarious footnote of history. And a left-wing takeover of the Labour Party is so impossible that it happened six years ago Your comparison of a new party to CUKTIG is just nonsense. You're comparing a group with potentially 34 MPs to one with 11 at its peak & which lasted less than 6 months before half of them quit the new party to join the Lib Dems. You're also comparing a party that filled ground already well covered by a lot of Labour & the Lib Dems to one moving to ground which is largely ignored in British politics. You're comparing steady funding from trade unions to a couple of donations from wealthy people & little sign of sustainable funding. You're comparing a group which would be the 4th largest in parliament to one which even at its brief peak had fewer MPs than the Liberals. You're comparing a party that could have hundreds of thousands of members, many of them now experienced campaigners after 2 general elections to one that had no base whatsoever out with Polly Toynbee & some Observer opinion writers. I do like you're dedication to insisting I do nothing but post. Top marks for that shite.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:22
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Hey guys we’re doing the revolution tomorrow meet up outside the Pret on Kentish Town Road ttyl
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Feb 26, 2021 15:25
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CGI Stardust posted:
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Feb 26, 2021 15:25
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CoolCab posted:I hate excessive pessimism because I identify elements of myself in it. I've never understood eeyoring - it is what it is, you know? This is the only reason to vote SNP: that they want back into the EU. It doesn't matter how poo poo an independent Scotland would be governed, if you at least regain the right to leave if you don't like it.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:29
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Why hasn't lammy run? Other than that it'd ruin his life forever
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Feb 26, 2021 15:34
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, like I said earlier, the impression is of improvisation and drift. Some in this thread are maintaining that there is a definite project going on, whether it's to decisively eliminate the left, reposition the party as pro-business etc but I don't buy that. I've seen instances of political projects being confidently and decisively pushed forward: New Labour in the late 90's or the Vote Leave campaign in the run up to 2016 and Starmer's Labour doesn't feel anything like that. It feels more like they're cargo-culting aspects of previous successful political projects, it's just that in this case, there's no actual project underneath it all. the comparator is new labour in the early 90s, not the late 90s this is the approach i mentioned yesterday. rejecting austerity narrative while also rebuilding economic cred.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:34
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Guavanaut posted:That's a perfect example of making GBS threads your pants on the narrative though. I'm worried (but not surprised) by the massive shrug at statelessness-as-punishment when it's somebody they don't like. Along with the lie that she has Bangladeshi citizenship (I think she was eligible to apply before, but when I exercised my option on another citizenship I had to provide criminal records checks for everywhere I'd lived, so that might not go so well).
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Feb 26, 2021 15:34
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Yeah Bangladesh officially shut that route down by saying that you have to have a clean record and can't be of disreputable or criminal character prior to application, so it was known in advance that they'd be making her stateless, but no corner of the press wants to call attention to those kinds of massive state crimes, it all gets reframed as a moral argument or about individuals.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:42
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I think that is in part, though, just a reflection of the general disintegration in belief in the system. Like, you know that it doesn't actually matter whether it's illegal, if the state wants it to happen it will happen anyway, so I think people in all quarters would rightly dismiss the "but it's illegal" argument as silly, because they on some level either understand that doesn't matter or actively want it not to matter. I don't think there is a constituency of people who actually would be outraged at the government acting illegally, because a lot of people want it to as long as it gets things they want done, and everyone else knows full well that it's going to anyway. You understand, on some level, that there is no law, there is only power, and whether you agree with that or not, you don't feel the need to make the argument on the pretense that it is otherwise.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:45
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I think if the right wing press had gone the "she needs to be brought back to face justice in a proper British court, she's taking the piss and every other criminal will become a foreign Muslim to get away with crimes" route then the home office would have u-turned in a heartbeat, not only because it would have been slightly cheaper and easier than doing the other thing. So the real question is why they opted to go with the route that they did. Both routes sell papers and tie to something in the deep id of the people that read them, and I doubt that any of the editors were really morally invested in either outcome. I'm actually surprised that they didn't do their usual thing and try to play both with Daily Mail says kick her out/Mail on Sunday says lock her up.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:51
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I mean "keep the foreigners out, even if they're british" is entirely consistent with their general position? Plus actual expense is meaningless, the idea of keeping people out is intuitively cheaper than dealing with them.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:53
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forkboy84 posted:No it didn't. loving hell. They had the leadership & nothing else. Which, yeah, much more than we'd have expected but the point is that both MPs & internal party employees absolutely stopped an actual left-wing takeover. Partly that's a reflection of the naivete of the Labour left. Partly there was a complacency which yeah, it allowed enough members to believe the lies of Kier Starmer during the leadership election. We had the leadership and eventually we had the general secretary, and much more of the internal positions as well. The wreckers from the leaked report were mostly gone by the 2019 election. Obviously there were inadequacies and they should have cleaned shop immediately and everything but the reality is that the leadership can remake the party in their image. The left can win again, though not if all the leftists leave. quote:Your comparison of a new party to CUKTIG is just nonsense. You're comparing a group with potentially 34 MPs to one with 11 at its peak & which lasted less than 6 months before half of them quit the new party to join the Lib Dems. You're also comparing a party that filled ground already well covered by a lot of Labour & the Lib Dems to one moving to ground which is largely ignored in British politics. You're comparing steady funding from trade unions to a couple of donations from wealthy people & little sign of sustainable funding. You're comparing a group which would be the 4th largest in parliament to one which even at its brief peak had fewer MPs than the Liberals. You're comparing a party that could have hundreds of thousands of members, many of them now experienced campaigners after 2 general elections to one that had no base whatsoever out with Polly Toynbee & some Observer opinion writers. The main thing I'm doing is comparing a party that actually existed to one that only exists in your mind and therefore can be all the good things and none of the bad things. Assuming that every single SGC member would leave is a stretch alone. Change UK did not have a large constituency (thankfully), but they did have one, and it was one larger than zero MPs would represent. And their funding was perfectly fine for the period of time they existed, if they'd actually seen any success they would have had no problem getting money. There is a chunk of the country pining for sensible centrism, and they got completely wiped out in 2019 because everyone plumped for the larger, more established parties. quote:I do like you're dedication to insisting I do nothing but post. Top marks for that shite. What are you doing to bring about either a strong left-wing splinter party that somehow doesn't split the left vote or a violent overthrow of the government then?
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Feb 26, 2021 15:56
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OwlFancier posted:I mean "keep the foreigners out, even if they're british" is entirely consistent with their general position? Like if the Sun had flipped a coin and it had landed on "terrorists hiding from BRITISH justice, bring them in" instead of the other way then they'd have gone with that.
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Feb 26, 2021 15:59
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I think I'd just assumed that the Home Office were thinking "Ooh, it might be a bit dangerous to go and get her". But the whole thing was just: 
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Feb 26, 2021 16:03
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There's also a self-fulfilling prophecy here - if you leave the Labour party because it's not left wing, that makes it harder to take it over if another chance arises. Especially in places like councillors and the party bureaucracy which have always been entrenched areas the right has done well in. I do think that Keith has fundamentally broken the party in a lot of ways though - I think there was appetite among many in the party for a genuine unity candidate who would have brokered some kind of a compromise. Now that Keith has both betrayed the trust of the soft left by doing some unbelievably vicious infighting (literally the last thing a lot of people wanted) while also not showing it to be worth it in terms of results.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:04
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i'll bet boris announces like a £120 bung for every household in the land shortly before the next election and he calls it the "brexit dividend" lol
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Feb 26, 2021 16:08
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Boris announces £30 bong for every household in the land https://twitter.com/ohbabyletmegin/status/1360208266307993601
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Feb 26, 2021 16:12
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Comrade Fakename posted:What are you doing to bring about either a strong left-wing splinter party that somehow doesn't split the left vote or a violent overthrow of the government then? That's as disingenuous a question as if I was to ask you what it is that so appeals to you about campaigning for a party full of Margaret Hodges? Which generally isn't a great way to get someone to respond to your pissy sarcastic question. But since it's sunny & I'm in a decent mood I'll just say that I am doing my bit to ensure that the Scottish Greens hold onto their 1 MSP in the Highlands. Because they are the best option on the table right now for where I live. In perfect world the Greens could unseat 1 of the 2 ScotLab MSPs who are both Blairite shitehawks but that would involve SNP voters understanding the D'Hondt system. MikeCrotch posted:There's also a self-fulfilling prophecy here - if you leave the Labour party because it's not left wing, that makes it harder to take it over if another chance arises. Especially in places like councillors and the party bureaucracy which have always been entrenched areas the right has done well in. That goes to any party though. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, if left wingers don't join the Tory Party it will continue to be a party for the wealthy. It's broken logic. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 16:15
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margaret hodge's voice is what i hear in my head when i do the NORMAN!!!!!!!!! thing tbh
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Feb 26, 2021 16:19
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forkboy84 posted:
I can't quite put my finger on it but I think this argument might not be totally in good faith
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Feb 26, 2021 16:24
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MikeCrotch posted:I can't quite put my finger on it but I think this argument might not be totally in good faith It started out in good faith and then I got lazy & then forgot what I was going to say & posted it anyway & yes, it's a terrible post but I won't edit it to keep my shame up.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:29
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Yep: Johnson: "... and that's why we Conservatives think it's time to give people's money back to them, so that they can enjoy it like they deserve! Over the coming months, every household in the country will be receiving..." Starmer: "In the current fiscal environment, it's simply not responsible to be splashing money around like this. As sensible administrators of the nations's interests, Labour will..." *Tories win the election* Starmer: "Who could have forseen that people would prefer a party that offered them something, rather than one that offered them nothing??  "
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Feb 26, 2021 16:30
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My instinct after seeing the poo poo that happened in Liverpool is that Labour members will never have the option to vote for a left wing leadership candidate again. I acknowledge that my instincts are often wrong and I'd be happy to hear why.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:39
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happyhippy posted:Naomi here is parodying some US right wing twitter account who overhears 'Hillary democrat pizza sex pedo dungeons confirmed' in his local starbucks multiple times. You're thinking of Jacob "Literal avatar of white privilege" Wohl. Actually I should check up on how he reacted to not getting the pardon from Trump for the first few of his many, many crimes which was how he got into the griftosphere in the first place.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:40
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Never mind the actual content of what comes out of her gob, babs. forkboy84 posted:Your comparison of a new party to CUKTIG is just nonsense. You're comparing a group with potentially 34 MPs to one with 11 at its peak & which lasted less than 6 months before half of them quit the new party to join the Lib Dems. Socialism is a major talking point at the moment and Corbyn and Bernie proved that a knowledgeable enough leader behind it could have enough clout to pull the major parties, especially because it makes it difficult for the papers to conflate support for an explicitly socialist party with other issues the way they do within Labour. Even if they never get in, even if the goal is just to have a BXP style party pulling the overton window from the other side, it could have an effect. I'm not saying it's the best idea, I'm just saying it's not as dumb an idea as some people are implying. Plus it's post 2016 politics. Nobody has any loving idea what could happen.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:48
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So you think 'Muslamic Grooming Gangs' targeting British teens are a bad thing? URGH yes they should all be shot! Save are kids! So you agree Shamima Begum should come back to the UK? No not like that Serious I have seen She was fifteen she knew what she was doing! multiple times today, which is fine for being groomed to murder troops, but not being groomed for sex I suppose.
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Feb 26, 2021 16:52
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NoneMoreNegative posted:So you think 'Muslamic Grooming Gangs' targeting British teens are a bad thing? A lot of people are just super loving hateful
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