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The wait for this recap was extra hard because the first two episodes of this season were largely place-setting exercises. "My Old Kentucky Home" kicks off a streak of winners. Plus...The Charleston! Henry and Betty's scene together is just...so incredibly weird and uncomfortable. ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Re: Pete’s politics Yes, Pete Campbell is just a remarkable shitbird in so many ways, but he's given the small mercy of one of his character traits being "not racist" (or "the least actively racist person at Sterling-Cooper," at the very least.) Even at an occasion where he needs to be putting on a happy face and keeping up appearances, this is just too much. (I'm up to "Signal 30" on my rewatch. So drat good. The Rosetta Stone of "What the hell is Pete Campbell's deal?")
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Mar 1, 2021 02:11
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JethroMcB posted:he's given the small mercy of one of his character traits being "not racist" (or "the least actively racist person at Sterling-Cooper," at the very least.) Let's.. be a little careful here. He's a well to do middle class New Yorker from very rich families, he'll always have tons of prejudices. But yes, probably the least actively racist at the firm.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:17
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At the firm, sure. Maybe. Pete is surprisingly genuine-seeming about it vs. how terrible he is in other ways. But I’d argue Paul does actually care about anti-black racism, even if he’s extremely performative about it. I think Ginsberg has some genuine social justice beliefs wrapped up in his...increasingly delusional worldview. I imagine he’d have a way more extreme reaction to Roger’s act if it’d happened in the SCDP era and he was there...which he clearly wouldn’t be.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:07
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For such a dour man, Pete is surprisingly hopeful about America's future. I think this makes him more sympathetic than most rich whites to the goals of the civil rights movement. Like he wants to believe that the American Dream can come true for anyone.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:36
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Is there any evidence of Pete being less racist that we've seen up to this point? The major incidents I can recall across the series are his direct marketing of TVs to blacks idea, which is coming in one or two episodes, and his response to MLK's death in a few seasons from where the thread is at now. I'm struggling to recall anything that would specifically indicate a more relaxed attitude towards race relations than his contemporaries that we've seen in seasons 1 and 2. His reaction to Rogers minstrel song appears to be a hint towards much stronger characterization in this direction that occurs later.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:56
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The Klowner posted:Is there any evidence of Pete being less racist that we've seen up to this point? The major incidents I can recall across the series are his direct marketing of TVs to blacks idea, which is coming in one or two episodes, and his response to MLK's death in a few seasons from where the thread is at now. I'm struggling to recall anything that would specifically indicate a more relaxed attitude towards race relations than his contemporaries that we've seen in seasons 1 and 2. His reaction to Rogers minstrel song appears to be a hint towards much stronger characterization in this direction that occurs later. His support of JFK over Nixon (rather, his awareness of JFK's appeal over Nixon's) was foreshadowing along these lines, though that's part of the overall "he's actually kind of in touch with his generation" vibe.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:59
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Beamed posted:Let's.. be a little careful here. He's a well to do middle class New Yorker from very rich families, he'll always have tons of prejudices. But yes, probably the least actively racist at the firm. The upcoming Admiral television story reveals who Pete Campbell is: A man who will always put money before prejudice, and who doesn't understand why not everyone shares that worldview. His conversation with Hollis in the elevator is definitely a merciless display of how out of his depth he is in discussing matters of race, though ("It's just the two of us, Hollis and..." "Mister Campbell.") The Klowner posted:Is there any evidence of Pete being less racist that we've seen up to this point? The major incidents I can recall across the series are his direct marketing of TVs to blacks idea, which is coming in one or two episodes, and his response to MLK's death in a few seasons from where the thread is at now. I'm struggling to recall anything that would specifically indicate a more relaxed attitude towards race relations than his contemporaries that we've seen in seasons 1 and 2. His reaction to Rogers minstrel song appears to be a hint towards much stronger characterization in this direction that occurs later. There's a brief bit in "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" implying that Pete is openly in favor of the Civil Right Act. More surprising is that Roger seemingly agrees!...shortly before he engages in active racism against the Honda reps.
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Mar 1, 2021 04:01
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JethroMcB posted:The upcoming Admiral television story reveals who Pete Campbell is: A man who will always put money before prejudice, and who doesn't understand why not everyone shares that worldview. His conversation with Hollis in the elevator is definitely a merciless display of how out of his depth he is in discussing matters of race, though ("It's just the two of us, Hollis and..." "Mister Campbell.") As always with this show, this is both exactly it and also there's more to it - as I put above, this is the closest I think he can come to being active not racist without some deeper enlightenment, but he is trying? That feels very weird to say about Pete
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Mar 1, 2021 04:03
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The Klowner posted:Is there any evidence of Pete being less racist that we've seen up to this point? The major incidents I can recall across the series are his direct marketing of TVs to blacks idea, which is coming in one or two episodes, and his response to MLK's death in a few seasons from where the thread is at now. I'm struggling to recall anything that would specifically indicate a more relaxed attitude towards race relations than his contemporaries that we've seen in seasons 1 and 2. His reaction to Rogers minstrel song appears to be a hint towards much stronger characterization in this direction that occurs later. Yeah, not really. Maybe we're kind of spoiling Jerusalem here. JethroMcB posted:[spoiler]There's a brief bit in "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" implying that Pete is openly in favor of the Civil Right Act. More surprising is that Roger seemingly agrees!...shortly before he engages in active racism against the Honda reps. Oh really? It always felt to me like he was trying to be a gracious host, and he just didn't know what the gently caress to do.
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Mar 1, 2021 04:07
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Yoshi Wins posted:Yeah, not really. Maybe we're kind of spoiling Jerusalem here. he is holding a massive grudge against Japan from the war, and the whole episode is about him refusing to let that go
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Mar 1, 2021 08:22
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I misread that post! I thought it said Pete was racist against the Japanese.
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Mar 1, 2021 10:12
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Jerusalem posted:
I think there are two ways of looking at this line. One, Roger is personally upset that Don is acting mean to him on this day. He invited him here to have a good time and Don is poo-pooing everything he did (with good reason from the audience perspective.) The other is about their friendship in general. That Don and Roger have had a real friendship, even if he was/is his boss. And this is Roger signaling that they aren't friends anymore.
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Mar 1, 2021 11:23
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you know i always thought the drug guy in this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coBmezODRbE looked exactly like tom cruise. glad to see i wasn't alone https://twitter.com/mountdiscovery/status/1365258540441604100 e: i guess he looks like a lot of ppl lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29d6RDSK1c
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Mar 2, 2021 20:18
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And about Joan playing the accordion, apparently it was her idea. Matthew Weiner wanted her to play the piano but apparently the actress had experience playing the accordion
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Mar 2, 2021 21:53
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Shageletic posted:you know i always thought the drug guy in this clip Rewatching that clip, it's also insane how close that guy's mannerisms are to Christian Bale as Patrick Bateman. (Who was famously based on Tom Cruise, for anyone who hadn't heard that.) A real feedback loop, this whole thing.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:52
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Shageletic posted:And about Joan playing the accordion, apparently it was her idea. Matthew Weiner wanted her to play the piano but apparently the actress had experience playing the accordion That owns
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Mar 3, 2021 01:18
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A good read as always, though I do want to let you know that your analysis of "My Old Kentucky Home" and how it is placed historically vs "Hello Ma Baby" may mean that you get threatened to be voted off the thread. I don't want that to happen to you, so please be careful about discussing the time and place where art comes from and how art and artist relate. Those are hotbutton issues that are clearly unwelcome in this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 4, 2021 03:57
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VinylonUnderground posted:A good read as always, though I do want to let you know that your analysis of "My Old Kentucky Home" and how it is placed historically vs "Hello Ma Baby" may mean that you get threatened to be voted off the thread. I don't want that to happen to you, so please be careful about discussing the time and place where art comes from and how art and artist relate. Those are hotbutton issues that are clearly unwelcome in this thread. lmao
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Mar 4, 2021 05:09
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I withdraw my "this poster isn't so bad" reckon. I reaffirm my "these write-ups are more enjoyable than rewatching the show" reckon.
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Mar 4, 2021 07:17
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This thread is one of the best on these boards
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Mar 5, 2021 00:29
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I sort-of want to understand the poster drama / probation, but just from the first posts interacting with SebMojo, I get the sense that there's not even an acknowledgement of Season 4 Don in that dude's takes.' Anywho, I always liked how Connie was introduced in "Kentucky Home"; the ambiguity of his status tracks to that rich executive mindset irl. Sorry if the thread's already been over that 'bootstraps' aesthetic Connie's got going. MoaM fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 10:40
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Well you see he was engaging with the show on the same terms Jerusalem was or some such nonsense. Dude honestly sounded like one of those guys who just discovered the more mainstream thoughts of criticism of media, and leapt right in to try and prove how intelligent he was. While I don't agree with many of Jerusalem's takes, he's consistently proven himself to be a keen observer of subtle details of emotion and able to frame his understanding through that lens. Vinny's takes we're extremely facile in comparison, completely lacking in the understanding of the inner lives of the characters, he instead latched onto some tired argument from Truffaut and tried to shove his square block of an argument into the circular hole of Mad Men, then blended it with some bizarre assertions about Mad Men relating to Bush's America. His core argument seemed to be something about Weiner being too infatuated with high class society to truly criticize it. No examples were given, and counter examples were waived away simply by refusing them to be accepted as criticism. It would've been ignorable except for his dedication to constantly F5'ing and repeated posting. He made it to the fourth or fifth of the postcount list despite not starting until near the end of Season 2. You missed absolutely nothing by not reading his "Criticism" Them lashing out at this cruel injustice and getting probed is the only mildly interesting thing that relates to them in this thread. Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 11:03
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MoaM posted:I sort-of want to understand the poster drama / probation, but just from the first posts interacting with SebMojo, I get the sense that there's not even an acknowledgement of Season 4 Don in that dude's takes.' That bit about being in a jon boat paddling by a blazing mansion in the night is so American it hurts. Archetypal writing right there.
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Mar 5, 2021 11:06
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That scene is just so deeply and embarrassingly funny in a lot of loving ways (I don't wanna get ahead of the thread); I really liked it on my re-watch.
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Mar 5, 2021 11:23
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Gaius Marius posted:Vinny's takes we're extremely facile in comparison, completely lacking in the understanding of the inner lives of the characters, he instead latched onto some tired argument from Truffaut and tried to shove his square block of an argument into the circular hole of Mad Men, then blended it with some bizarre assertions about Mad Men relating to Bush's America. You have that backwards. 1) I'm not interested in the inner lives of characters because they are fictional characters. I am interested in how pop culture fits into society. 2) I started by positioning S1 and S2 within the context of Bush's America. I think the takedown of the resurgent "man in a grey suit" culture that was being venerated at the time was deeply ineffective for the reasons I stated. 3) That caused people to meltdown because many people do ardently believe you *can* make an antiwar film and, more importantly, that authorial intent is really all that matters. Point 3 led to a lot of posts because while Weiner clearly states "Don's life is hollow" a bunch of times, I feel his love of the patriarchy, wealth, and being a sex creep makes those statements hollow and are overshadowed by him saying, "Look at how loving awesome this is!" "Don't believe your lying eyes, Don is sad!" is a weak critique of conservativism of the mid-to-late aughts and frankly isn't that strong a condemnation of masculinity in the '60s. If you are going to say my analysis is facile you should be able to at least summarize it correctly. VinylonUnderground fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 17:22
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Is that an authentic Old Fashioned recipe? I thought you didn't use soda water.
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Mar 5, 2021 17:30
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Big Dick Cheney posted:Is that an authentic Old Fashioned recipe? I thought you didn't use soda water. The oldest known versions of the recipe in the early 1800's mention adding a few "dashes" of still water. Soda water seems to have entered the picture around the 1930's (speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that actually started in the 20's to stretch limited alcohol supplies during prohibition.) Can't find anything on whether or not that was still in vogue in the 60's, but that was most likely the variation Don started drinking as a young man.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:17
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VinylonUnderground posted:1) I'm not interested in the inner lives of characters because they are fictional characters. honestly I don't think mad men is a show for you if this is your mindset, pop culture is hugely important to the show but it is all about the characters and how they navigate 1960s America.
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Mar 5, 2021 19:47
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VinylonUnderground posted:You have that backwards. 1) I'm not interested in the inner lives of characters because they are fictional characters. I am interested in how pop culture fits into society. 2) I started by positioning S1 and S2 within the context of Bush's America. I think the takedown of the resurgent "man in a grey suit" culture that was being venerated at the time was deeply ineffective for the reasons I stated. 3) That caused people to meltdown because many people do ardently believe you *can* make an antiwar film and, more importantly, that authorial intent is really all that matters. Point 3 led to a lot of posts because while Weiner clearly states "Don's life is hollow" a bunch of times, I feel his love of the patriarchy, wealth, and being a sex creep makes those statements hollow and are overshadowed by him saying, "Look at how loving awesome this is!" "Don't believe your lying eyes, Don is sad!" is a weak critique of conservativism of the mid-to-late aughts and frankly isn't that strong a condemnation of masculinity in the '60s. Absolutely the chief person who has been arguing that authorial intent is all that matters has been you, but specifically the subconscious authorial intent you've inferred. This is why we got a lot of reductivist bullshit about how the lead writer granting isolated measures of success to the lead character in the first couple of seasons of a show are all that should be taken as a significant, because they're the parts that speak to your understanding of Matt Weiner's personal depravity, just as Paths of Glory can't be an antiwar film, not based on reading anything within the film, but because you know Kubrick loves violence. This is very much the sort of dogmatic poo poo that Death of the Author is arguing against. Whenever people have tried to engage you about what is actually within the show versus your own selectiveness you've become incredibly passive aggressive and descended into incoherent ranting about how Saxby Chambliss makes the show evil or whatever, so god knows you think a meltdown looks like.
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Mar 5, 2021 20:48
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I feel like it's worth mentioning at this point that Vinylon has also been banned from like two major subforums (GBS and QCS) according to their rapsheet, possibly spanning multiple accounts to avoid said bans. so take that knowledge into any earnest engagement with them  Also I forgot how completely telegraphed the Henry stuff was even from the get-go. That line about Rockefeller marrying a recent divorcee "for love"? How the hell did I miss that the first time lmao
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Mar 5, 2021 21:26
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Blood Nightmaster posted:Also I forgot how completely telegraphed the Henry stuff was even from the get-go. That line about Rockefeller marrying a recent divorcee "for love"? How the hell did I miss that the first time lmao There's a lot to absorb in this one. This episode introduces quite a few new characters. Henry, Conrad Hilton, and Peggy's new secretary, Olive, all come back. And there's also Jeffrey Graves Princeton 55, but he's pretty obviously a one-off comic creation. Plus the other doctors Greg works with. We never see Ettinger again, or his wife, but I feel like they're memorable enough that they could seem like they were coming back. That conversation Mrs. Ettinger has with Joan in the kitchen really stands out.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:36
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Yoshi Wins posted:There's a lot to absorb in this one. This episode introduces quite a few new characters. Henry, Conrad Hilton, and Peggy's new secretary, Olive, all come back. And there's also Jeffrey Graves Princeton 55, but he's pretty obviously a one-off comic creation. Plus the other doctors Greg works with. We never see Ettinger again, or his wife, but I feel like they're memorable enough that they could seem like they were coming back. That conversation Mrs. Ettinger has with Joan in the kitchen really stands out. About Joan and Greg's dinner party: I don't believe any of Greg's coworkers/their family come back, but Greg's frustrated and deteriorating work situation is a major driver of his relationship with Joan and it's much more concrete and palpable from having had this exposure to the players in that corner of the story.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:19
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Re: Pete’s politics There is definitely an intended irony that while he’s seemingly a dick in many ways he’s far more sincere in his progressive beliefs than Paul who is a Nice Guy but entirely performative.
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Mar 6, 2021 01:05
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VinylonUnderground posted:Point 3 led to a lot of posts because while Weiner clearly states "Don's life is hollow" a bunch of times, I feel his love of the patriarchy, wealth, and being a sex creep makes those statements hollow and are overshadowed by him saying, "Look at how loving awesome this is!" "Don't believe your lying eyes, Don is sad!" is a weak critique of conservativism of the mid-to-late aughts and frankly isn't that strong a condemnation of masculinity in the '60s. We all understand that this is how you feel about the show, it's just not supported by the actual text. The writers are obviously aware of how Don's life LOOKS glamorous. That's one of the primary tensions, that Don LOOKS successful and happy, and is celebrated by people who only see the superficial trappings of his lifestyle. Tearing that down is the entire project of the series, why it ran for 7 seasons. Don is a man who has everything, whose inner rot slowly sabotages ALL OF IT because the wealth and power do nothing for his soul. His picture-perfect marriage decays into alienation and divorce at his own hand. His second one does, too. He demolishes his personal relationships with alcoholism and abuse. He alienates his daughter forever when his terrible choices spill out in front of her. And he implodes his golden career because eventually all his unprocessed trauma comes pouring out in a client meeting. You refer to it as a "sad trombone," like it's some purely superficial apology for Don's success, but there are very clear consequences for him doing and being the things he is. This powerful alpha who's so enviably charismatic winds up totally alone, a thrice-divorced loser in a fancy penthouse apartment with nothing in it, or hung over and exhausted on a random couch in San Pedro, or possibly suicidal at Esalen after the last even symbolic vestige of "family" abandons him there. His life isn't actually that great. And it's absurd that you can't seem to see beyond his material successes to see how or why that is. The most efficient example I can draw of the show's "thesis," if it has one, is the scene where Pete says goodbye to Tammy before moving to California. It's a direct echo of the shot that closes the pilot, of Don tucking his kids in as Betty watches from the door frame. But the context that the viewer now has renders the moment immensely sad. Pete has wanted to "be Don Draper" since the first episode, and now he is. He's a powerful and respected businessman who's alienated his wife, with a child who won't know him, now totally alone with his riches. *Sad trombone noise*
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Mar 6, 2021 01:13
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Xealot posted:
The guy devolves to the point that he watches a cockroach walking through a living room populated by lawn furniture, while freezing because he can't get off his rear end to fix a broken door. It is a disaster entirely made by his own hand, that he was completely capable of preventing or rectifying, but he's a mess of a person. I don't see that as "oh poor Don  " but "loving hell, you blew your life up, you butt, for no good reason." Freddie's "fix your bayonet" scene is such a kick in the butt of a line for anyone, but it barely hits Don. I just wanted to mention it because I like that scene.
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Mar 6, 2021 02:22
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Sash! posted:The guy devolves to the point that he watches a cockroach walking through a living room populated by lawn furniture, while freezing because he can't get off his rear end to fix a broken door. It is a disaster entirely made by his own hand, that he was completely capable of preventing or rectifying, but he's a mess of a person. I don't see that as "oh poor Don remind me of that scene?
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Mar 6, 2021 02:47
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sebmojo posted:remind me of that scene? after don calls Freddy to meet the mets, he picks him up and takes him home, gives him a coffee that is "as black and strong as jack johnson" and gives him the pep talk to get back there and do the work because you'll never make it back in this state. Edit: unless you're thinking of the other scene, after Megan's mom got the movers to take all of Don's stuff
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Mar 6, 2021 03:07
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GoutPatrol posted:after don calls Freddy to meet the mets, he picks him up and takes him home, gives him a coffee that is "as black and strong as jack johnson" and gives him the pep talk to get back there and do the work because you'll never make it back in this state. It is that one
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Mar 6, 2021 03:41
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Sash! posted:The guy devolves to the point that he watches a cockroach walking through a living room populated by lawn furniture, while freezing because he can't get off his rear end to fix a broken door. It is a disaster entirely made by his own hand, that he was completely capable of preventing or rectifying, but he's a mess of a person. I don't see that as "oh poor Don Whaaat? Freddy's pep talk totally gets through to Don. He goes to work the next day with his attitude completely corrected. Don was lucky to have a friend like Freddy.
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Mar 6, 2021 03:47
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Sash! posted:The guy devolves to the point that he watches a cockroach walking through a living room populated by lawn furniture, while freezing because he can't get off his rear end to fix a broken door. It is a disaster entirely made by his own hand, that he was completely capable of preventing or rectifying, but he's a mess of a person. I don't see that as "oh poor Don Your interpretation of the scene is in direct opposition to everything that happens immediately after it.
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Mar 6, 2021 03:55
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