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Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!






Pocky In My Pocket posted:

If the ball-team can beeline the dragon room then they could, in theory, be inside the ball for like 10 minutes - so about an hour and a half realtime. So depending on how generous matt is with that they're out of the picture for a while.

A determined person could probably even make a case that they them rushing the exit could be done in ~ a minute if they land somewhere they can navigate from and nothing nasty is in the dragon room

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redbrouw
Nov 14, 2018

ACAB
The Nein plans like The Losers, specifically in the film.

Gain entry through pure force of annoying, get caught doing incredibly obvious bad stuff, proceed to murder guards that probably had wives and families using high powered rifles that would go through rent-a-cop flak vests without a problem.

And that was what they planned for!

Except the escape music is Vanessa Carlton's A Thousand Miles.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
This entire sequence feels very S1 and as such I have grown to dislike it.

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)
I thought Trent & co gained access to Yussa's tower a little bit easily, but I guess they are a credible threat to its security?

I should stop staying up to watch the full stream (east coast), it's getting me used to staying up late.

Lima
Jun 17, 2012

Heists always tend to end up in Armenian money-train situations :v:

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



i do like the suggestion upthread that this is basically an international diplomatic crisis that makes Trent look loving terrible as he's loosed a team of assassins openly in another country, hostilely invaded another archmage's tower, and it's likely his secret black site is not so secret anymore

not sure Matt would actually play it like this, but i very much enjoy the idea that this reaction itself could seriously damage his political power and cause other repercussions for him (which won't save the Nein or make him any less of a threat in the present, but could play into Astrid's goals)

HoboTech
Feb 13, 2005

Reading this with the voice in your skull.
Conversely, none of this could be an issue for Trent at all. Unless I missed something, there's no indication that the other assembly members know what happened at the compound and, as for the dead guards, he could come up with any number of plausible explanations. Hell, since Caleb used Dunamancy the attack could be blamed on Xhorhas if he wanted to. He's also an Arch Mage and can pretty much bend reality/people to his will if they're not on his level. It's entirely possible he could seep it under the rug, if only temporarily.

As for the ending of the recent episode, they're totally going to get waylaid on Gehenna or some poo poo and come back to a screaming psychic mage city floating in the sky and I couldn't be more excited. I know a lot of people tune in for stuff like the Beau/Yasha date in Caleb's tower but this is the stuff I love DnD for.

edit: Forgot to mention, Yussa has explicitly stated he stays out of politics and we've never seen him to have allies that check up on him or anything. If he vanishes then no one but the Nein would likely know as even his relationship with Allura is acquaintance at best. Also, he's in the Astral, silver-cording it up. His rear end is definitely getting kidnapped if Trent followed Astrid to the tower.

HoboTech fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Mar 6, 2021

TotalHell
Feb 22, 2005

Roman Reigns fights CM Punk in fantasy warld. Lotsa violins, so littl kids cant red it.


Josef bugman posted:

This entire sequence feels very S1 and as such I have grown to dislike it.

lol and conversely for me maybe that’s why I’m into it so much

Abroham Lincoln
Sep 19, 2011

Note to self: This one's the good one



Cheston posted:

I thought Trent & co gained access to Yussa's tower a little bit easily, but I guess they are a credible threat to its security?

I feel like it's a very Matt DMing thing where like:

Trying to break into that tower? It would cost them half the party's collective spell slots, trigger 10 different automated traps, and leave them mortally wounded.
Trying to use the tower defenses for themselves? Lol they don't exist.

And I get why, but it just always feels funny to me.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

TotalHell posted:

lol and conversely for me maybe that’s why I’m into it so much

It's fine for those that like it, but i want to get back to kicking the poo poo out of villains. If I wanted to see people fail at stuff I would install more mirrors in my own house!

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

Abroham Lincoln posted:

I feel like it's a very Matt DMing thing where like:

Trying to break into that tower? It would cost them half the party's collective spell slots, trigger 10 different automated traps, and leave them mortally wounded.
Trying to use the tower defenses for themselves? Lol they don't exist.

And I get why, but it just always feels funny to me.

Matt did have Wensforth note that most of the Tower's defenses are tied to Yussa himself, to be fair. You'd imagine he'd have set up some static traps or something, but the fact Wensforth answered the door, rather than Astrid having to break it down, probably bypassed even any defenses tied to the Tower itself rather than to Yussa's will. Since now she could just shove a goblin out of the door and run past him.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

It was just abysmally bad timing for Yussa to be out of commission. I hope he'll be okay even if Trent maybe kidnaps him, I like him a lot.

TotalHell
Feb 22, 2005

Roman Reigns fights CM Punk in fantasy warld. Lotsa violins, so littl kids cant red it.


Josef bugman posted:

It's fine for those that like it, but i want to get back to kicking the poo poo out of villains. If I wanted to see people fail at stuff I would install more mirrors in my own house!

While I do find the flailing and failing very funny (and stressful in a good, edge-of-your-seat way), I feel like there was a good amount of poo poo-kicking in C1.

Probably it’s just ultimately how these adorable goobers play; sometimes failing hilariously, sometimes kicking rear end and taking names, rarely anything in-between. That’s D&D to me.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

I wanna be clear I'm not really blaming the cast for how things went down over the past few eps because even if it's just a game, it's a game you have an emotional reaction to and that includes nerves in tense situations. I have definitely done far stupider things when pressed during tabletop.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

PetraCore posted:

I wanna be clear I'm not really blaming the cast for how things went down over the past few eps because even if it's just a game, it's a game you have an emotional reaction to and that includes nerves in tense situations. I have definitely done far stupider things when pressed during tabletop.

Oh absolutely! I am not blaming the cast at all!

It's just that this as hit a point where I don't want to watch until there is a better moment of emotional catharsis. c.f. Beating up someone.

TotalHell
Feb 22, 2005

Roman Reigns fights CM Punk in fantasy warld. Lotsa violins, so littl kids cant red it.


If Trent is really determined, then the confrontation will be happening sooner rather than later I suspect. Even on another plane it seems like it’d be hard to hide from a determined and powerful wizard.

Senjuro
Aug 19, 2006

TotalHell posted:

If Trent is really determined, then the confrontation will be happening sooner rather than later I suspect. Even on another plane it seems like it’d be hard to hide from a determined and powerful wizard.

If the amulets protect from divination, not just scrying specifically, it's gonna be pretty tough. Even Commune falls under divination. Trent's gonna need something that even he might not have like Wish or Gate.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

I was going to joke about Lucien turning off the amulets as a side-effect of the anti-magic cone, but if they were in the cone they'd be immune to divination magic by default, right? You can't use magic on someone in the cone because it dissipates at the edge of the cone.

Anyway, so what they need to do is get Lucien...

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!






Senjuro posted:

If the amulets protect from divination, not just scrying specifically, it's gonna be pretty tough. Even Commune falls under divination. Trent's gonna need something that even he might not have like Wish or Gate.

At tgis point in the campaign, there is no way trent doesnt have 9th levels. Outside of some really fukken left turn of him being a fake

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)

Pocky In My Pocket posted:

At tgis point in the campaign, there is no way trent doesnt have 9th levels. Outside of some really fukken left turn of him being a fake

Did any NPCs in campaign 1 have access to 9th levels? Other than Vecna, who I think only used Meteor Storm?

Antifa Spacemarine
Jan 11, 2011

Tzeentch can suck it.

Cheston posted:

Did any NPCs in campaign 1 have access to 9th levels? Other than Vecna, who I think only used Meteor Storm?

Raishan also used Meteor Swarm.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

Trent might have 9th levels but I'd honestly bet more heavily on Ludanis having them. Trent is powerful but he mostly grooms other people to do work for him, he's not a travelling adventurer constantly getting in over his head. He's also experienced, but Ludanis has literally centuries of study on him. There are good reasons why he might be an archmage who isn't quite at the level of having 9th level spells and why that doesn't actually make him less of a threat in most every circumstance, since a big part of how someone like Trent operates is by having well-organized lackeys to spread out firepower with.

Senjuro
Aug 19, 2006

Antifa Spacemarine posted:

Raishan also used Meteor Swarm.

Delilah used Prismatic Wall.

Thing is, not all 9th level spells are equal. You can give an NPC Meteor Swarm because in the end it's simply a big damage spell, or Prismatic Wall because it's defensive, but something like Wish or Gate in the hands of an enemy is just too much to handle. A villain with half a brain can TPK a party using these spells without even being on the same plane as them.

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!

Pocky In My Pocket posted:

A determined person could probably even make a case that they them rushing the exit could be done in ~ a minute if they land somewhere they can navigate from and nothing nasty is in the dragon room

Yeah if they poof into the room they first arrived in and just beeline to the dragon room, then unless something's changed there shouldn't be any threats at all in there. They aren't particularly banged up and there's a few stray spells on hand, plus Fjord having all his spells and abilities. Seems like the smart play is to just get right to finding a way out of there immediately once they're in there.

Antifa Spacemarine
Jan 11, 2011

Tzeentch can suck it.
Delilah is also a good barometer for Trent too, since she was also a member of The Assembly (she had Vess' position)

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

Antifa Spacemarine posted:

Delilah is also a good barometer for Trent too, since she was also a member of The Assembly (she had Vess' position)
Yeah, I'm more convinced now. It still comes down to what Matt is willing to have Trent use, but I imagine he's had Trent's spell lists worked out from before ep 1. No adding in Wish out of nowhere if that doesn't fit, but some nasty possibilities.

The thing is, as a character Trent seems more about operating with a veneer of deniability, magnifying his power with an army of brainwashed lackeys, and inflicting unnecessary suffering specifically because he is a sadist, so I'm less worried about the man himself than I am about his black ops wizard torturers.

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"




PetraCore posted:

I was going to joke about Lucien turning off the amulets as a side-effect of the anti-magic cone, but if they were in the cone they'd be immune to divination magic by default, right? You can't use magic on someone in the cone because it dissipates at the edge of the cone.

Anyway, so what they need to do is get Lucien...

I think that's up to DM fiat, you're looking at them and their immediate surroundings and so far we've mostly seen scrying "sensors" for lack of a better term. Unless the sensor was inside the cone, you'd look at where they were and still see them.

Senjuro posted:

Delilah used Prismatic Wall.

Thing is, not all 9th level spells are equal. You can give an NPC Meteor Swarm because in the end it's simply a big damage spell, or Prismatic Wall because it's defensive, but something like Wish or Gate in the hands of an enemy is just too much to handle. A villain with half a brain can TPK a party using these spells without even being on the same plane as them.

Wish is way crazier and harder to use in 5e too. Scanlan used it in a one-shot to figure out where Grog's soul was, and not only was everyone terrified he had access but there's a non-zero chance you just straight up never get to cast it again. It also weakened the gently caress out of him for several days from the strain. Even if he had Wish it's not something to be used lightly, especially if you have other enemies who might take advantage of your weakness or you might lose it forever.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

AJA posted:

"Why don't we just talk to them? No?....Ookay"

They had plenty of opportunities.

Caleb did not tell Astrid what happened in Eiselcross, he didn't tell Ludinus what happened, he didn't tell Trent what happened, he marched into the vault, murdering guards along the way with Kryn magic, attacked Trent when he showed up, didn't respond much to Trent's sendings, fled the Chateau, and only AFTER failing to find an easy way out of Yussa's tower does he suggest "maybe if I talk to them, I can convince them to help".

That's a good line of thought, and if any of the M9 had considered and voiced that line of thought before all the murder and theft and the resulting consequences, perhaps they might be working on stopping the Tomb Takers and the city of death at this moment. Instead, they've lost at least one more day, who knows how many more they'll lose before they even get back to Eiselcross. It's quite possible that they'll completely fail to stop Lucian doing whatever he's trying to do at the city.


tsob posted:

Matt did have Wensforth note that most of the Tower's defenses are tied to Yussa himself, to be fair. You'd imagine he'd have set up some static traps or something, but the fact Wensforth answered the door, rather than Astrid having to break it down, probably bypassed even any defenses tied to the Tower itself rather than to Yussa's will. Since now she could just shove a goblin out of the door and run past him.

The question I have is "why was there a door to knock on", when Wenceforth made it go away. Which means that Astrid and whoever detected the undetectable door or made it appear?


Abroham Lincoln posted:

I feel like it's a very Matt DMing thing where like:

Trying to break into that tower? It would cost them half the party's collective spell slots, trigger 10 different automated traps, and leave them mortally wounded.
Trying to use the tower defenses for themselves? Lol they don't exist.

And I get why, but it just always feels funny to me.

Yeah, sometimes it feels like they get railroaded into situations where there's only one solution which doesn't lead to a big failure. Such as Astrid entering Yussa's tower through the door which shouldn't have been there, without any resistance to the entry.

It's not *unreasonable* for people to have noticed the Ruby of the Sea moving hurriedly through the streets with that group Stealth check being kinda iffy at best. It's not unreasonable that once the chateau was gone that they'd scry on her because she isn't protected yet, but without time given for the family members to attune to the amulets, without any other spell slots, that meant that the plane shift and fun-ball trip was just about the only option for everyone to escape.

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 9, 2021

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.
My general thing is it's fine for a GM to make hard plays like Matt is doing to stress to the party just what the gently caress they are up against, if they aren't going to lead to an unavoidable TPK.

The worst thing that happens if the M9 fail is that Trent and Caleb have a conversation, that Caleb doesn't want to have. And honestly as far as the Tomb Takers go that probably would help resolve that issue with more of the strength of the empire behind them. With the M9 having to help the Assembly more than likely.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

The question I have is "why was there a door to knock on", when Wenceforth made it go away. Which means that Astrid and whoever detected the undetectable door or made it appear?

I don't think we know how that works. If it's just a door that's there and covered by an illusion most of the time, Astrid and the others wouldn't have much trouble seeing through it.

I think some viewers forget that this is an RPG. This group is very serious about playing their characters, with only a little metagaming, and this is absolutely how this group of characters would be responding to this situation: hastily, panicked, without much forethought. Only one or two PCs are even capable of the kind of thinking required to observe, for instance, that an illusion of a dragon outside Trent's little enclave was almost certain to make the defenders call him in, and I don't think that occurred to the players at all. Liam was obviously playing Caleb as haunted in a way almost guaranteed to make the infiltration go wrong, and his response to getting caught by Trent was extremely in character.

Matt gave them a little time to recover, then put the pressure back on again big-time, then gave them time to figure out what they wanted to do and put the pressure on again only once they had several options before them. He also opted not to give them an easy out in the tower.

Most of what's going wrong the M9 is doing to themselves. The situation is actually pretty good for them, given how badly things went: they have the amulets, and they've tested Astrid pretty severely and gotten a sense of how far she's willing to go for Caleb and against Trent. The big question is whether they get themselves into so much complicated trouble that they can't return in time to stop Lucian. On the other hand, if they end up somewhere like the City of Brass, it's quite possible they'll come out of this with several advantages: Lucian isn't going to know where they are, and he also isn't going to know about any of the resources they gained during this period. He can't anticipate the staff or the holy weapon. He certainly can't anticipate whatever they might be able to bargain for on another plane. The big challenge right now is seeing the families secure before returning to the North.

Edit: Also, we know Yussa can Astral Project, so either he was using a scroll or he has 9th level spells. I expect Trent either doesn't know whose tower this is, or also has 9th level spells, because I can't imagine bursting into an archmage's tower unless you're powerful enough to think you can win if he objects.

Narsham fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Mar 9, 2021

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

Narsham posted:

On the other hand, if they end up somewhere like the City of Brass, it's quite possible they'll come out of this with several advantages: Lucian isn't going to know where they are, and he also isn't going to know about any of the resources they gained during this period. He can't anticipate the staff or the holy weapon. He certainly can't anticipate whatever they might be able to bargain for on another plane. The big challenge right now is seeing the families secure before returning to the North.
I was also thinking, Jester's mom is going to be fire resistant. Jester is only cold resistant because she's got water genasi heritage muddling up her tiefling affinities. If they end up in the City of Brass, Marion's going to be able to handle herself okay, and it's not like she doesn't know how to navigate complicated social situations without giving away or promising too much. She's probably going to be an active asset, even with her understandable level of panic from agoraphobia and her whole life getting flipped upside down.

EDIT: Of course if they end up anywhere but the City of Brass, it's going to be so hot that even Marion is going to be hurting, but my impression was that fire genasi and tieflings could normally get by okay in the temp range of the City.

EDIT EDIT: The real problem is Luc probably has about 3 kitten's worth of HP, but Matt's not going to kill a kid like that.

PetraCore fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Mar 10, 2021

Abroham Lincoln
Sep 19, 2011

Note to self: This one's the good one



We all laughed. We mocked him. But who’s laughing now?

The man with the ring of fire resistance, that’s who.

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!






And jester didnt attune to it

Senjuro
Aug 19, 2006
As long as they don't land in a crowded place they should be fine. Find a secluded space, rest in the safety and relative comfort of the dome and Plane Shift back.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008

Abroham Lincoln posted:

We all laughed. We mocked him. But who’s laughing now?

The man with the ring of fire resistance, that’s who.

Yeah! About 50 minutes after burning to a crisp, he’ll be totally fine!

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017

👁️🔥👁️👁️👁️BE NOT👄AFRAID👁️👁️👁️🔥👁️

Cad should be able to cast protection from elements, I assume that's the play. Since it's supposed to be a panic button it'd make sense to go to the City of Brass, and not like, the swirling firestorm plains or whatever.

Hulk Smash!
Jul 14, 2004

What if it's just the plane of really nice, sunny beaches?

Luceo
Apr 29, 2003

As predicted in the Bible. :cheers:



I've gotta say, Matt has been using the party's need for rests incredibly effectively the past several episodes, both as a way to add tension and to help with the difficulty in challenging a party of seven (nein).

Froghammer
Sep 8, 2012

Khajit has wares
if you have coin
The Elemental Plane of Fire isn't just, like, literally fire. There are safe patches, pockets of breathable air, the occasional body of water, and at least one major city. Matt's not the kind of GM that would say "yeah, your Planeshift dropped you in a cube of magma three miles across, everyone start taking 3d6 fire damage per round". Wherever Team Scroll ends up, it's probably going to be survivable until they can get the dome up.

As for Team Ball, who knows.

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Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

Plot Twist: They actually end up in Avernus in the living room of that Nine Hells character Vox Machina visited in Campaign One with the really calm but unsettling voice.

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