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the other thing about poe, and this is really just reiterating an earlier post i made, is that he appears to be the officer in charge of every single member of the ship's fighter wing. his initial rank is wing commander before he's demoted to captain, but even captain is, as far as i'm aware, the typical rank for the commander of the air group (CAG) that commands the air wing on a warship. so, he's not just some flyboy - he's the guy who all the other flyboys (and girls) get their info from. he's exactly the kind of person you'd want to keep informed as to what's going on, and it's not surprising at all that he's able to stage a solid mutiny. it's like having this plot that depends on military hierarchy and logistics to make sense, but not putting any thought to it. edit: lol cag snype'd again
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Mar 12, 2021 06:38
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the whole holdo-poe dynamic makes a lot more sense when you realize that their entire plot started as "those loving piece of poo poo podcast bros are disrespecting Are Abuela and need to be taught a lesson in Respect" and literally everything in the film is awkwardly backfilled to try and communicate that position
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Mar 12, 2021 08:28
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ok
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Mar 12, 2021 08:28
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the whole holdo-poe dynamic makes a lot more sense when you realize that their entire plot started as "those loving piece of poo poo podcast bros are disrespecting Are Abuela and need to be taught a lesson in Respect" and literally everything in the film is awkwardly backfilled to try and communicate that position 
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Mar 12, 2021 09:19
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If TLJ is to be read as an analogy for contemporary US politics then it is very clearly critical of liberals.
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Mar 12, 2021 11:43
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Remember that the opening of TLJ must take place short hours after TFA, so Poe has that very day blown up Starkiller base and single-handedly taken on a FO Dreadnought to save literally everyone in the resistance twice over. But no, he's just some idiot flyboy.
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Mar 12, 2021 12:00
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Alchenar posted:Remember that the opening of TLJ must take place short hours after TFA, so Poe has that very day blown up Starkiller base and single-handedly taken on a FO Dreadnought to save literally everyone in the resistance twice over. No no no, it's biting criticism of toxic masculinity. Like, the kind Poe displayed a movie earlier and which was sold as 100% heroic.
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Mar 12, 2021 12:10
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I think it's real bummer that the rebellion gets wiped out in TLJ and there's like 12 survivors. That's depressing as hell.
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Mar 12, 2021 12:38
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I agree with this. A lot of things that happen felt to me like they were being done in service of a “twist” when it would have worked much better played straight. The work the movie does to create expectations on the viewer requires making very strange decisions about the plot that ultimately undermine the reveal and the intended message. Instead of feeling like “ah, they got me, I am uncomfortable because I identified with the male viewpoint character and showed my privilege” I instead thought “drat, all of these people are pretty stupid and it’s no wonder they don’t have any allies left.” I think is mostly this, yes. Twists are the cancer of the contemporary entertaiment industry I have to say is kinda weird for me as a latin american to read you guys talk about Oscar Isaac like he was some ethnic minority, he would be just a white guy anywhere in latin america
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Mar 12, 2021 12:43
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Alchenar posted:Remember that the opening of TLJ must take place short hours after TFA, so Poe has that very day blown up Starkiller base and single-handedly taken on a FO Dreadnought to save literally everyone in the resistance twice over. Few hours later a bigger ship shows up. And then a few hours later they drop a death star canon down on a planet. One ship exploding doesn’t mean poo poo when you got a seemingly unlimited array of ships and weapons. And not to mention a lot of people who want to fund you.
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Mar 12, 2021 12:59
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The United States posted:"Now this is PODCASTING!" Poe Dameron go on Chapo.
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Mar 12, 2021 13:04
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the whole holdo-poe dynamic makes a lot more sense when you realize that their entire plot started as "those loving piece of poo poo podcast bros are disrespecting Are Abuela and need to be taught a lesson in Respect" and literally everything in the film is awkwardly backfilled to try and communicate that position Thats a very solipsistic way to watch the space fighting movie to say the least
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Mar 12, 2021 13:16
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CelticPredator posted:Few hours later a bigger ship shows up. We start the movie with limited knowledge of the situation, but TFA created the impression that both sides were on somewhat equal footing where funding and equipment was concerned. The death planet was a huge surprise to the Resistance because nobody suspected they FO had the resourced to pull that off. TLJ just said lol and gave the FO limitless resources. It's pretty lazy.
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Mar 12, 2021 13:22
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I think all the resources were supposed to be on Not Coruscant or something. Elias_Maluco posted:I think is mostly this, yes. Twists are the cancer of the contemporary entertaiment industry America has yet to make Latin Americans white like they did the Irish and Italians unless they look extremely European; they still look a little "different" or exotic to most people. Edit: white isn't a color in America; it's a status that means "normal." Darko fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 13:26
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Grendels Dad posted:We start the movie with limited knowledge of the situation, but TFA created the impression that both sides were on somewhat equal footing where funding and equipment was concerned. The death planet was a huge surprise to the Resistance because nobody suspected they FO had the resourced to pull that off. And then the presumptive conclusion from the ending of TRoS is that the FO was actually weak enough that it could instantly be defeated everywhere if the people of the galaxy actually cared enough to get into their spaceships.
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Mar 12, 2021 13:31
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i'll never understand the logic of 'soldiers shouldn't destroy the immediate threat because the enemy has a bigger threat later' don't blow up that tank that's bearing down on you, GI jimmy, the nazis have king tiger tanks, too!
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Mar 12, 2021 13:50
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I mean, even in TFA, the First Order had access to a planet destroying superweapon that they literally went out of their way to show dwarfing the Death Star. This is despite the New Republic being the ruling body of the galaxy and the First Order being a bunch of Empire larpers. TLJ definitely fast forwarded to them being full-on Empire 2, but they sure didn't feel like they were ever on the back foot.
The Bee fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 13:57
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I like that they actually wrote a source for all these superweapons, but left the people who are selling these superweapons completely unchallenged in the film.Horizon Burning posted:i'll never understand the logic of 'soldiers shouldn't destroy the immediate threat because the enemy has a bigger threat later' It would have been a better lesson if, during the chase, they're in a situation where the bombers would have been really useful. Instead all the capital ships small craft are destroyed five minutes later, so it didn't matter what Poe did.
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Mar 12, 2021 13:58
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TFA is weird because it implies that the first order having a fully crewed and operational Star destroyer is pretty astounding to poe
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Mar 12, 2021 13:59
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Horizon Burning posted:i'll never understand the logic of 'soldiers shouldn't destroy the immediate threat because the enemy has a bigger threat later' I mean if you know that fighting the dreadnought is pointless because there's a bigger one right behind it, then yes losing a bunch of people to blow it up is a bad idea. But neither the characters nor the viewers knows this in the opening. All we know is that Poe tells us they have a rare opportunity to take out a high value target, and Hux is extremely embarrassed that he loses a dreadnought. The Leia of the OT would not have thought Poe did anything wrong. In fact she would have gathered everyone to do one of those fancy medal ceremonies for him.
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Mar 12, 2021 14:01
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Grendels Dad posted:We start the movie with limited knowledge of the situation, but TFA created the impression that both sides were on somewhat equal footing where funding and equipment was concerned. The death planet was a huge surprise to the Resistance because nobody suspected they FO had the resourced to pull that off. In TFA there's a First Order Planet that's a huge weapon and it destroys the Republic Planet before they even know it exists. Compare to ANH where at the height of the Empire's power Han refused to believe they had a space station the size of a small moon
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Mar 12, 2021 14:44
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Alchenar posted:Remember that the opening of TLJ must take place short hours after TFA, so Poe has that very day blown up Starkiller base and single-handedly taken on a FO Dreadnought to save literally everyone in the resistance twice over. Also, a potential spy. Apparently destroying the Starkiller was just a ruse to make his cover more convincing.
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Mar 12, 2021 16:22
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I don't think she suspects that he himself is a spy, rather she thinks (completely correctly as it turns out) that he'll tell a lot of other people about the plan potentially including spies.
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Mar 12, 2021 16:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think she suspects that he himself is a spy, rather she thinks (completely correctly as it turns out) that he'll tell a lot of other people about the plan potentially including spies. I don't think there's any real reason for her to think that, though. If she was like "hey new hero of the Resistance who is our best pilot and pilot leader, we have a secret plan that we can't leak out because we're being tracked right now and there may be spies," there's no reason to think that Poe wouldn't say "okay" and stick with it especially since the nature of the plan doesn't require any real extra planning outside of "get into the escape pods." This was the same guy in charge of getting the secret Luke map and did so on his own a few days ago - it doesn't really match. She just created a self fulfilling prophecy by not telling him.
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Mar 12, 2021 16:48
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The conflict between Poe and Holdo is an inkblot test. The reason why the characters dislike and distrust each other seems to lack an established concrete basis, so the viewer interprets them as symbols for things that they already care about, leading to conclusions like "The Last Jedi is a movie about podcasts"
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Mar 12, 2021 16:49
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Poe is a massive dumbass and even if he was told "don't tell anyone about this because there may be spies" he would absolutely blab to a bunch of people who he thought couldn't possibly be spies because of what a dumbass he is
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Mar 12, 2021 16:51
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Poe wasn't a dumbass in the first movie though? They just subtract 50 IQ points from his character the second TLJ starts for.... some reason? LIke a huge chuck of the first movie is Poe being trusted to act independently on a dangerous secret mission by the top of the Resistance hierarchy and doing a good job against overwhelming odds! Then he acts in a pure combat role as a squadron commander and aces that, too! Holdo acted like the kind of officers that got fragged in Vietnam. Like, rolling a grenade into your lovely commander's tent is still a crime... but it didn't really happen to people who were worth a poo poo at dealing with other human beings either.
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Mar 12, 2021 16:57
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Edit Sorry confused Poe and finn
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Mar 12, 2021 16:59
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CelticPredator posted:Few hours later a bigger ship shows up. IIRC the Dreadnought was about to blow up the Raddus, which is to say the movie *shows* you that he was objectively correct and saved the resistance before ragging on him for doing it wrong because they need to have a conflict but forgot to set one up. sean10mm posted:Poe wasn't a dumbass in the first movie though? They just subtract 50 IQ points from his character the second TLJ starts for.... some reason? I was thinking exactly that earlier, about fragging, and noticed a particularly relevant note in the wikipedia article. "In the Vietnam War, the threat of fragging caused many officers and NCOs to go armed in rear areas and to change their sleeping arrangements as fragging often consisted of throwing a grenade into a tent where the target was sleeping. For fear of being fragged, some leaders turned a blind eye to drug use and other indiscipline among the men in their charge. Fragging, the threat of fragging, and investigations of fragging sometimes disrupted or delayed tactical combat operations. Officers were sometimes forced to negotiate with their enlisted men to obtain their consent before undertaking dangerous patrols." TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 17:09
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I don't think Poe is a dumbass exactly but he clearly has a very different view frok Holdo regarding how much you should tell your subordinates about upcoming operations. e: and while Holdo does turn out to be right I do think it's an interesting question whether it's enough to just be right and it's on other people to realize you're right, or whether you also have a responsibility to gain other people's trust so that they realize you're right. Just one of the many interesting questions raised by this cool film Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 17:27
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Poe was a different rank than in TLJ If he had not been demoted she probably would have told him the plan
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Mar 12, 2021 17:28
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euphronius posted:Poe was a different rank than in TLJ I mean, how do you think rank works either IRL or in Star Wars movies? In Star Wars movies nobody acted like a martinet until TLJ except in the Empire. And half the time Vader force choked them for being dumb failures. DO AS YOU'RE TOLD, SCUM was entirely part of the shorthand for showing the Empire as Nazis. Meanwhile in the rebel alliance having rank was either a fluff title for cool people, or something background characters had who didn't try to boss around the heroes. Like nobody was going JUST SHUT UP AND FOLLOW THE PLAN, GRUNT at either of the Death Star briefings or the Hoth escape briefing. I mean I was literally a captain in the army, and I wasn't that vague or dismissive when giving orders to enlisted people, never mind officers a rung or two below me on the chain. I had the LEGAL POWER to be a dismissive prick to everyone and demand obedience by way of LOOK AT MY RANK COCKSUCKERS, yeah. But if I did that I'd be, well, a huge rear end in a top hat who was constantly undermined by their subordinates at every turn. Probably not to the level of literal mutiny but it can get surprisingly close.
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Mar 12, 2021 17:41
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Yeah, the sudden importance of rank, procedure and decorum is why people read clumsy neoliberal propaganda into it, because they're literally the only people who actually buy into that poo poo.
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Mar 12, 2021 17:43
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In some sense poe's basic crime against the resistance leadership is his desire to survive. Leia's entire plan is to be martyred to make everyone feel bad- it would be nice if she was able to reach a big radio first to better guilt everyone by getting murdered live on air, but that's just the best case scenario for her. Even if everything had gone off without a hitch, I guess she was going to just get on the radio and start broadcasting anyway, inviting the FO to come finish her off. The worst case for her- somehow surviving her own jim jones attempt by sheer divine accident- is what actually ends up happening. So maybe it's a feature not a bug that struggling too much against death gets frowned on by the leadership. Holdo talks about keeping the spark of the resistance alive, but this isn't really meant to be done via anyone on those ships surviving, it's going to be done via mass cult sacrifice
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Mar 12, 2021 17:43
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You are comparing Holdo to Vader choking people to death . Come on now. Anyway regardless of how chummy officers are with subordinates in today’s army, she had a good reason not to tell him, and when she eventually relented and did, it blew up in her face .
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Mar 12, 2021 17:52
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euphronius posted:You are comparing Holdo to Vader choking people to death . No? Like this is a really disingenuous reading of my post. euphronius posted:You are comparing Holdo to Vader choking people to death . Come on now. Well I'm old as poo poo  so it's not today's army lol, it was probably a much more dickish and authoritarian version of the military vs now. I hope.But what I'm describing isn't being "chummy" because I wasn't buddy-buddy with my people. I tried to treat them respect, which is an extremely different thing. And a lot of it was self-interest: if nobody knows the reasons they're doing things and hates you personally, poo poo DOESN'T WORK. e: But this is less important than the fact that rank worship and blind obedience within the republic/rebelliion/resistance was never actually a thing in the universe of these movies, yet is a requirement for this big conflict in TLJ to make the slightest bit of sense. Unless you count the clones in the clone wars, but uh that wasn't presented as a good thing since they turn right into the stormtroopers. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 17:53
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She’s known the guy for 5 minutes. He’s a low ranking officer. He demands??? To know a secret plan ? She says no. Your point is that in today’s army (or whenever you were in the army)the 4* general would tell the whiny entitled lieutenant the secret plan ? Is that your point ? Or in naval terms a Fleet Admiral putting up with a lieutenant demanding to know secret plans euphronius fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 17:59
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I agree that the military culture of the resistance is ill defined I talked about that above
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Mar 12, 2021 18:03
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The Holdo Poe conflict is easily the most miserably boring plot point in all the star wars. Did you guys develop some special Force power to be able to discuss this without your soul escaping your body?
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Mar 12, 2021 18:06
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euphronius posted:She’s known the guy for 5 minutes. He’s a low ranking officer. He demands??? To know a secret plan ? She says no. Your point is that in today’s army (or whenever you were in the army)the 4* general would tell the whiny entitled lieutenant the secret plan ? Is that your point ? Well the rank structure in the movies is super vague (which is bad when strict rank worship suddenly is a plot point!) so the size of the gap between them is vague, but he was directly reporting to a literal princess general or whatever the poo poo Leia is at this point 5 minutes ago so it can't be that big. He's not nothing. Also he's a literal war hero who helped blow up a planet killing gun, and even generals don't generally tell medal of honor types to eat a buffet of dicks. And he's invited to the briefing, so actually yeah, he would be expected to ask questions if he's confused. That's literally the whole point. That's what happens in all the other meetings like this in the past Star Wars movies, never mind reality. The first goddamn movie you have just some pilot guy going WAIT HOW THE poo poo CAN THIS WORK?!? and it's no big deal. Poe does act like a moron dildo, 100%, which is not a thing that's generally put up with, but it's also a thing that happens out of nowhere and was never set up in the last movie so it's not a defense of the story, it's another problem with it!
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Mar 12, 2021 18:07
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