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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Franchescanado posted:

Unrelated specifically to Possessor, but a question it brings up to me, to ask you specifically:

In Possessor, the film is set up to where you're not really supposed to connect with the characters. Tasya begins the film a shell of a person, broken by her career in destroying lives internally, at the cost of her own internal life. We do not know Tate until Tasya has already taken over his body (creating the suspense of the audience knowing just as much about Tate and how he acts as Tasya does, and knowing every interaction she has as Tate is dangerous), and only get to know Tate once his life has been destroyed. At points I was rooting for Tasya to succeed in her mission, but also understanding that it would mean Tate, (probably) an innocent, and Ava, would be murdered. But if I also rooted for Tate, that would mean Tasya ultimately failed to reclaim her humanity (very unlikely). So, there's no "good" way to root for anyone in the film; my interest is in watching the implosion of events and how drastic the repercussions will be, not in the hopes of any character's salvation or happy ending.

Knowing that you really like Marvel movies (and use them to decompress from the bleaker competitors in this challenge), where the impetus in the brand is that every character, even villains, fit into a likeable mold, I've been wondering:

What movies, if any, would say you like/love (4 stars or more, for Letterboxd standards), where you do not connect to the characters and/or find them all detached, or bad, evil, or reprehensible?

The Devils Rejects comes to mind as a recent watch, but I suppose what I really love about that film is the way that Zombie plays with the fact that his characters are reprehensible and evil and still tries to get you to sympathize with them a little. Vs what he did in 3 from Hell where was just too in love with them to really walk that line so instead of him trying to humanize monsters he was just hero worshipping them.

Ms. 45 I don't think I'd call "reprehensible". What she's doing is wrong and I don't enjoy it, but I sympathize greatly with her trauma and pain and the movie actually goes to great lengths to dance with the line's she's crossing and the lose idea of her victims "deserving" it.

So yeah, maybe I DO need some level of sympathy to love a film or fully connect? That feels restrictive but I can't think of any counter examples. One film I used to love was Mel Gibsons Payback. But while everyone there is a bad guy Gibson's character clearly is defined as having a basic code. So I dunno. I can't think of a film to directly counter that.

I don't think its a moral standard for me. And I don't think I need to see myself in a character or necessarily root for someone. But I do think I have a harder time latching onto themes than I do characters so while I may appreciate a film like Possessor for all the reasons you describe I don't feel it as strongly as I do a film with stronger or more well rounded characters.

On the other hand I watched American Animals last night. It had well fleshed out characters. They had sympathetic elements despite being selfish, privileged assholes and essentially "bad guys". I liked it but I ended up feeling uneasy at the end that they may hav manipulated me and tried to make me have more sympathy for them. And I watched Snyder's Dawn of the Dead the other day and I used to LOVE it but now found it too mean. So I dunno... maybe I have a problem.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Mar 8, 2021

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Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



Hello, hi. I'd like your input regarding convenient stream days/times. If you would like to join the streams please fill out this form. Thank you!

Also, the repeat question is concerning weekends vs weekdays.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

3. Joe Dante’s Gremlins 2: The New Batch vs. 14. Jack Hill’s Alien Terror

Alien Terror wasn’t good but it was more interesting than most bad films. Being Boris Karloff’s last role certainly helps in that regard but it was more than that. The basic story on this film seems to be that months before KARLOFF’s passing a Mexican studio hired Jack Hill to fill 4 quick and dirty half movies with him and then Juan Ibáñez finished them in Mexico. To that end I was expecting Karloff and Hill’s scenes to feel tacked on and small but they actually make up a good chunk of the film and the centerpiece of the main alien and laser beam story and the bulk of the finale. The Mexican side of the film is this weird rapey Jack the Ripper story that was barely coherent, although the bad Youtube autotranslations certainly didn’t help in that regard (although they did help keep things interesting). What was kind of interesting was while the Hill side of things was pretty dry and unoffensive but not super interesting either the Mexican side of things was shot beautifully. There was a lot of great camera, color, and lighting work done to turn a cheap production into a very gothic feeling production. The cinematography is however let down by the story and its weirdness with the other half. You end up with this really weird mashup of giallo, gothic, exploitation, and b sci-fi. But its short and as said as it is to see Karloff so weak its worth seeing his final performance. And I’m actually curious to see some of the earlier films from this odd conglomeration to see if maybe they had more cohesion early and this was just what was left years after the legend’s passing. And hey, I’ve made worse choices than watching a bunch of genre confused Mexican Boris Karloff films.

But it was never beating Gremlins 2. I doubt von Spider Baby would have stood a chance here. Gremlins 2 is probably as much a confused mess of ideas and yet Joe Dante somehow manages to keep it all on the rails barely. Wonderful puppetry, gore, and animation blended with biting comedy that avoids aging badly, and a completely insane soup of zany ideas all blended together. From weird 4th wall breaking cameos to Dante taking out his frustrations on critics to whatever the hell sick mind thought “Veggie Gremlin.” Christopher Lee as a mad scientist just casually taking up residence in the office building with his totally clone assistants and whatever is in that giant pod he’s carrying. A side plot of a horror host who tries to advance his career by reporting live on the crisis. Constant appearances from all the Dante favorites. There’s just so much fun even aside from the Gremlins. Or that crazy rear end mogwai. Its just an endless list of fun ideas and gags. Probably the only draw back is the soft Trump parody and unfortunate Hulk Hogan cameo. Joe Dante probably didn’t know they were racists or that a few decades later Trump would be a villain of the history books. But it doesn’t age great. Still its pretty innocent so it doesn’t drag the thing down. Its just a small annoyance.

So Gremlins 2 easy. My guess is this might be the second shutout unless someone plays spoiler.



6. Park Chan Wook’s Sympathy for Lady Vengeance vs. 11. (STAC Goat’s Rustic Films Enemies of Horror) Jeremy Gardner & Christian Stella’s After Midnight

The second half of Lady Vengeance is a pretty well done and powerful story of the ugliness of revenge, and the ineffectiveness of healing pain and suffering with more hatred, violence, and death. I’m not crying for a child serial killer but I’m not enjoying mob justice either. But thankfully the film doesn’t really seem to be doing so by the end either. It doesn’t focus or wallow on that, it shows the victims and the pain and ultimately that our main character wasn’t really doing it for revenge but retribution for her own sins. And it fails in that regard and the only way forward is through her daughter. Its a good idea I wish had impacted me more but it didn’t because the first hour of the film is this edgelordy juvenile rapey thing I hated watching. I hate this poo poo and even though I had no distractions while watching it took me completely out of the film and I somehow ending up missing key parts. Part of me wants to rewatch it with the clearly story in mind to follow some of its looser and purposely deceptive storytelling better, but at the same time I have no interest at all in rewatching those elements of the film I hated in the first place. The decision to do the first half like this I imagine was intended to increase the impact of the much more sullen second half, but it has the opposite effect on me. It leaves me disengaged when that second part happens and so it hits me less. There’s obviously talent here but there’s also a calculation that didn’t work for me and a tone I absolutely abhor. Remember when we told not to vote for the casual misogyny or animal cruelty of films? That’s how I feel about films like this.

I’m not unbiased though because not only are they going against one of my teams, but they’re going against my absolutely favorite team in this. Some of my teams are just people I thought should be in the tournament matched together. Some are groups I wanted represented in the tournament. Some are jokes or just weird thought experiments like “can I put together a team from one anthology?” But this is the film I love. Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead are probably the filmmakers I most anticipate seeing their next work in all of Hollywood (which makes them joining the hype machine of the MCU very exciting for me) and Gardner’s work with them has been very interesting and good as well so he’s joining the list. And really I love this whole cooperative conglomeration of artists helping each other in the industry. I love this team and love the label of “Enemies of Horror” because to me it speaks to what’s wrong with many gatekeeping, toxic horror fans and how wide and interesting the genre can be. There’s room for introspective relationship stories using horror as metaphor, plot device, and setting. And if it makes some narrow minded assholes mad too bad. If they advance I’ll champion for them, if they fall I’ll resubmit them next time. I’m just glad to expose some people to them and even happier that some people enjoy it.

I for one liked After Midnight a lot more this time than I did the first time. I was a little worried because of all the negative reviews on Letterboxd and claims of misogyny but I didn’t see that at all and thankfully neither did anyone in the stream. Its entirely fine for one woman to want children and focusing on that one thing entirely misses the point of the film. Its about the disconnect in communication in a long term relationship. One party who focuses on the happiest moments while falling comfortable into the routine and distracting himself with problems like monsters, the other party feeling stuck in that comfort and worried it breeds resentment and complacency. The monster can be a metaphor for the relationship itself, the fight between the two, the inability to let go, or momentum and being stuck in place. And the film does a great job playing it as all these things as well as a literal monster with a great layered ending that gets the best of both worlds. And I love the way when the couple finally sit down and have an adult conversation about their relationship is presented plainly, simply, one one single long shot like a stage play. Its just so matter of fact and different from this world of monsters and memories that Hank has been lost in the whole film. Its not a fight, its not a sexy reunion, its just a necessary conversation with two people so comfortable with each other that they probably don’t notice they’re wearing matching outfits.

I loved that film and I love this team. So while I might rewatch Lady Vengeance its not gonna change my vote. At the same time while I’m really glad a lot of people enjoyed the film in the stream I also know Park has a lot of fans and a lot of people love that stuff I hate so I expect to lose this one. But I’m glad some people enjoyed this film and I encourage you to check out more of the films on this team if its eliminated. And if not the Enemies of Horror will be back next time.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
After Midnight didn't do much for me unfortunately. It's well done for what it is but I need something that moves a little faster or keeps me on my toes more than this did. I kinda felt like I'd seen everything the movie had to offer about 20 minutes in, and I was pretty much correct. It's well acted, shot pretty well, but in the horror department I don't really think it delivered. It does have a fun ending.

Sympathy for Lady Vengeance is actually my least favorite of the Vengeance Trilogy but still it's just too intense and weird and disturbing and ultimately satisfying for me to vote against it here. If this is a matchup between the offbeat American indie horror scene and the weird offbeat Korean crime film scene, I'm voting for Korea every time. And that's really the way I see the matchup, both films feel like they represent their particular pocket of filmmaking and I just prefer one over the other in general.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
Tarnop described After Midnight as a short dragged to feature length and I can totally get that criticism. Personally I thought it worked because I enjoyed the two leads performances a ton, but if you don't enjoy their monologuing I can see the movie dragging.

I'm still leaning towards Sympathy for Lady Vengeance because I consider all three of Park's revenge films as some of the best revenge films ever made.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Go ahead, break my heart, vote my team out, advance the type of movie I hate... that's how this always goes. Films I hate win, films I love lose. I'll keep doing this. I do it for you, not me.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



Alien Terror versus Gremlins 2 seems like a foregone conclusion. Alien Terror is wholly unremarkable, I described it during the stream as Plan 9 but with extra implied rape, and I think that just about covers my feelings on the matter. The film seems cynically designed from the ground up to simply tick boxes. We have the gothic horror of a Jack the Ripper story forced uneasily into a UFO film, forced uneasily into a mad scientist film, with a nuclear disarmament narrative tacked on as an afterthought. Neither of these three tales are particularly interesting or well-done, they all feel like they were torn from some terrible serialised affair. I know we're not supposed to discuss teams, but there are 3 more of these phoned-in monstrosities on the Jack Hill side, so it's not even as if there are greener pastures over this horizon.

Gremlins 2, on the other hand, is incredibly fun from start to finish, extremely funny, inventive, and holds up beautifully. There are terrific performances from of course Christopher Lee, but all the way down to a smorgasbord of Joe Dante regulars, such as the ever-wonderful Dick Miller, John Astin, and of course Henry Gibson. I don't want to labour the point, but Dante creates such wonderfully dense and hilarious universes, and I'm never disappointed by them. He easily gets my vote.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out

MacheteZombie posted:

Tarnop described After Midnight as a short dragged to feature length and I can totally get that criticism. Personally I thought it worked because I enjoyed the two leads performances a ton, but if you don't enjoy their monologuing I can see the movie dragging.

It was difficult for me because their performances were good and I do like the people involved. My problem was the characters. If a movie has 90 minutes dedicated almost entirely to character development then I want way more than the cyphers we were given. In a short it's forgivable because you rely on audience assumptions and stereotypes so you can get to what makes your story worth telling.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Its time for your weekly reminder and my weekly math test. Its about 31 hours left for this week's matchups if you haven't found the time to watch them or vote. You can vote until 3 AM EST Mar 12th (or when I wake up). WandaVision is over so I no longer have this unhealthy compulsion to stay up to watch something posted at 3 AM, so maybe we'll wander more into "when I wake up" territory now. But don't take too much chance and make sure you vote if you want to by then.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Mar 11, 2021

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
Gremlins 2 vs Alien Terror is no real matchup. Alien Terror has a batshit premise that ends up being wasted on a really slugglishly paced, boring movie. Gremlins 2 is Gremlins 2. Dante using one of his strongest movies on this one will bite him in the rear end later.

Now, After Midnight vs Sympathy for Lady Vengeance is another story. The two movies couldn’t be any more different. One is a small, naturalistic and quirky romantic monster movie, the other a sweeping and impeccably made, very artificial revenge drama. That’s a real matchup. I really adored After Midnight. There’s something to horror movies where nobody dies, and everyone ends up happy. It’s funny, it’s charming, and it’s got a completely banging soundtrack. The atmosphere is on point. There’s nothing about the movie that I don’t like except for the cat getting eaten. If this is the Enemies of Horror, please let them kick Horror’s rear end. I’ll stand and cheer.

Now, I actually have an issue with Lady Vengeance. It’s too well done in parts for its own good. The first half of the movie is such an ostentatious marvel of moviemaking to me that you sort of forget about the actual emotional core of it all. The colour, the whimsical and impeccable editing, it’s magical realism down to the narration style, and so it’s often more an exercise in impressing the audience than in really engaging them emotionally. Or just plain making them laugh, like the daughter threatening to kill herself in front of the Australian adoptive parents. Not always of course – the recreation of the supposed murder in front of the journalists, wow. But the overall tone of the movie changes. I the second half, Lady Vengeance’s well laid plan runs into some hiccups and when it’s actually coming to fruition, the whimsy and colour are literally gone (cool effect: the black and white makes her characteristic red eye shadow invisible, I’m sure there’s some symbolism here). It’s engaging. But it’s still funny. In best Korean cinema fashion, the horror is punctuated by moments of humour, even if it’s sometimes just a visual gag like comical axe one of the murdered children’s dads is sporting. It works fantastically for me, it’s a gasp of air before you dive back into the movie, and at the end, you’re not exhausted. It feels like you’ve finished reading a really good book. It’s just that good of a movie.

Overall, Lady Vengeance is probably something I can watch over and over again and still discover new details, whereas After Midnight is an extremely pleasant surprise that I don’t really need to revisit. I’m really looking forward to all of PCW’s other movies, whereas the other team’s lineup, it’s not bad but it’s not the same ballpark.

married but discreet fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 11, 2021

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



I decided ultimately on After Midnight. As impeccably made as Lady Vengeance is, it seemed a little overwrought when it came to actually capitalising on its heavy themes. After Midnight however actually brought tears to my eyes in the conclusion, and it did so by crafting a simple yet nuanced emotional journey. I don't expect it to win the week, but it won my heart.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
After Midnight could have a shot. It was a surprise hit for some of us and I'd say it has broader appeal than Lady Vengeance. Though I'm voting for LV myself.

Alien Terror sucked so if you didn't watch it, you didn't miss much.

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog


I also went for After Midnight essentially on a coin flip. I liked both a lot.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Finally. Lets see our winners and losers.



Well Dante ALMOST pulled off the second shutout but one silent voter broke it up. A secret JoeJack Hill fan? Or someone out there quietly trying to preserve the one shutout for Ghostwatch/One n Dones? We keep getting close but for that one rogue vote. Either way it cuts it JoeJack Hill’s out and Joe Dante moves on, although as others have said he might have blew his biggest gun on his weakest fight. On the other side of things After Midnight put up a respectable fight but ultimately falls short and Lady Vengeance sends Park Chan Wook into the second round on his second tournament try and vanquishes my Enemies of Horror like the villains always fall in the end. That sets up a clash between Park and Dante next round that should be interesting.

Ok, time for our last set of 3/14s and 6/11s in the Italian Conference.

3. George Romero’s Bruiser vs. 14. Joel Schumacher’s Phantom of the Opera

Romero fought into the Sweet 16 last year knocking out Karyn Kusama’s Destroyer and Brian DePalma’s Body Double before falling in an epic threeway with Bong Joon-Ho’s Host and eventual winner Ishiro Honda’s motherfucking Godzilla. No shame in that but it cost Romero three of his biggest films to get there leaving him with a diminished pool this year and the Bruiser is definitely a deep cut. His opponent is Joel Schumacher, a name as well recognized but not always associated with horror. Can a three hour Andrew Lloyd Webber musical romance take down one of the godfathers of horror? How is the stream gonna handle this? Will my deep love of Emmy Rossum sustain me? Its gonna be something a little different, which seems like the motto of every week. Isn’t that’s cool?

George Romero’s Bruiser is on Roku and free on Tubi in the US.
Joel Schumacher’s Phantom of the Opera is free on Hoopla in the US.


6. (STAC Goat’s The Ghostbeaters) Fede Alvarez’s Evil Dead vs. 11. Kiyoshi Kurosawa’s Seance

The Ghostbeaters are one of those “why did no one use these guys?” teams I threw together. Sam Raimi also got to the Sweet 16 last year taking out Michael Soavi’s Stagefright: Aquarius and Roger Corman’s Haunted Palace before falling to David Lynch’s Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me. Tough break. But he did it without using Evil Dead so I had to pair him with the rookie Dan O’Bannon and Fede Alvarez’s remake. So fitting that it will be the junior member of this team representing it first. Kurosawa on the other hand felt first round with Cure to the giant killer Brian Yuzna and his killer Bride of Re-Animator. Its a better draw for Kurosawa this time but can Alvarez’s polarizing mean gorey remake avoid a rare upset? Or can Kurosawa be one of the few repeat directors to improve in their second go around?

Fede Alvarez’s Evil Dead
Kiyoshi Kurosawa’s Seance

Last week of the first half of the first round. If that makes sense.

Vote until 3 AM EST Mar 19th (or when I wake up)

Bracket & Noms Spreadsheet
Letterboxd List

Next Week!
2. Shinya Tsukamoto vs. 15. Jean Rollin
7. STAC Goat’s Creature Features (Guillermo del Toro & André Øvredal) vs. 10. Herschell Gordon Lewis

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Mar 12, 2021

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I was admiring the utter randomness of our watched films so far on my Letterboxd list and I think this is the first week all the films are made in the 21st century. Just seemed interesting to me.

And I can't sleep.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
I've been meaning to watch Bruiser for years now, so I'll finally take care of that. I've softened on musicals in recent years so Phantom of the Opera does have a chance to win my vote.

I really don't know anything about Seance, but STAC is correct, I know from the horror thread that The Evil Dead is somewhat divisive and anything divisive is vulnerable in this tournament. Should be interesting.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
Phew, I almost thought After Midnight was going to kick out Park Chan Wook. Stoked for Schumacher vs Romero.

Been looking at the little stats at the bottom of the tourney spreadsheet, they're fun to look at. Sad to say my Austrian team lost, so I'm not sure where the win for Austria came from.
Would be interesting for the stats minded nerds to see how Teams vs Individual directors have been doing.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

married but discreet posted:

Sad to say my Austrian team lost, so I'm not sure where the win for Austria came from..
It came from me being stupid and marking Mother Joan as an Austrian film instead of a Polish film. My bad. Corrected.

married but discreet posted:

Would be interesting for the stats minded nerds to see how Teams vs Individual directors have been doing.
Added.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Mar 12, 2021

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
Mods rename STAC Goat to STATS Goat

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

If my math is right (which it might not be because I haven't slept) teams are currently destroying solo directors 14-5 overall and 8-3 in Team vs Solo matchups. That includes the 5 playins, all of whom are still in the first round. Of the 14 that have advanced to the second round 9 are teams and 5 are solos.

I was actually planning to do this stuff next week when we reached the halfway point of the first round. But whatever. More nerdery for the spreadsheet nerd.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 12, 2021

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
My sense is that the teams have a natural advantage because they feel like a novelty of this tournament, and fellow posters put thought and effort into putting them together. So when it's a close call I think some of us tend to lean towards putting the teams through to the next round.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer
I think Bruiser is much more interesting than the initial premise sounds. It's a scathing condemnation of ladder-climbing corporate/office politics, and it's Romero's take on capitalism draining the workers of their identity and public murder sprees in a pre-9/11 climate. It's not perfect, some of the acting choices are crazy (Peter Stormare, of course), but I like it.

I've never seen Phantom of the Opera, but it was very popular when I was in middle/high school with women I knew and the drama nerds. I was a drama nerd too, but I had a chip on my shoulder towards musicals that didn't have man-eating plants or Time Warps.

Prediction: Romero


I've only seen Evil Dead in theaters the one time, and really liked it. I'm interested in how I feel about it now.

I've never heard of Seance, but it sounds really good? I'd like a good ghost movie right now.

Prediction: No Idea.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
I was under the impression that there's very few people who didn't like Evil Dead. Deb might be the first person to voice her displeasure, and I guess it's definitely not a STAC movie either.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Basebf555 posted:

My sense is that the teams have a natural advantage because they feel like a novelty of this tournament, and fellow posters put thought and effort into putting them together. So when it's a close call I think some of us tend to lean towards putting the teams through to the next round.

The other two aspects:

1. The guidelines for a team did not allow much room for any fat, for fear of losing and because there just wasn't space, whereas a single director may put out a clunker because of any number of reasons.

2. The team-building was (ironically) sort of a team-building exercise in the discord, where people traded team members or helped think of good ones for each other. So a team like my Femme Fatales had guidance and suggestions from others. That's why I'm not too worried about "who's team's winning" cuz every one of my teams was shaped by others in a collaborative effort in making an interesting line-up.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

married but discreet posted:

I was under the impression that there's very few people who didn't like Evil Dead. Deb might be the first person to voice her displeasure, and I guess it's definitely not a STAC movie either.

I haven't read Deb's criticisms, so that'll be interesting. With STAC, as mean and violent as Evil Dead is, it's very easy to root for every character. It's an Us vs Demonic Spirits party, and at the heart of the story is a group being challenged to overcome the problem together, even though they're getting possessed and attacking others. It's also got a really dark sense of humor. Duct tape, anyone?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Basebf555 posted:

My sense is that the teams have a natural advantage because they feel like a novelty of this tournament, and fellow posters put thought and effort into putting them together. So when it's a close call I think some of us tend to lean towards putting the teams through to the next round.

Teams also probably have an advantage because of the size of the pools. Many of the solos have large pools with their bad/mediocre films included and maybe outnumbering the good/great (especially if they played them in their smaller ballots last year). Teams are limited to 6-10 films and when I set it up I was thinking of teams like I built them where I tried to get closer to 10 than 6 and there were more questionable films on the team. But a bunch of people outsmarted me and built much tighter 6 or so teams with fewer weak links so they have a statistical edge in random draws.

Its why I think One and Dones, Queer as gently caress You, Femme Fatales, and Predation are all the darkhorses in this tourney because they're all tight 6 film/directors teams. Deb, Fran, Tarnop, and Machette outsmarted me.

married but discreet posted:

I was under the impression that there's very few people who didn't like Evil Dead. Deb might be the first person to voice her displeasure, and I guess it's definitely not a STAC movie either.

I actually really like it. That kind of mean/gore thing isn't usually my thing but ED'13 somehow manages to walk the line with me and make it work which I think actually elevates it for me because its usually something I don't like and they managed to make one I do like. But I love Jane Levy and I think the gore is incredibly well done and the pacing very intense and nonstop. And while the characters aren't the deepest they're not as shallow as in a lot of slashers/gore fests if only because the reason they're there and the relationships between them is more than "a bunch of teens randomly partying."

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 12, 2021

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



I'm not sure my complaints are going to be too surprising. While the gore is extremely fun, everything surrounding it is dull. The script is yawn-inducing, the acting is beyond wooden, and it's all shot in such a lifeless, limp, and tired way whenever there isn't gore around.

I know some people think that that's a tolerable state of affairs in horror, but at least in other films there's a charm, an energy, a clear desire in the performers' eyes to make a film, yet here it seems completely absent.

Perhaps this time it will work for me, or perhaps the group-watch setting will smooth over the cracks, but currently this is not a film I'm excited about at all.

Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Mar 12, 2021

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Evil Dead remake is nowhere near as good as any of the original trilogy, and while I agree with DDD that the script and every cast member that isn't Jane Levy completely sucks, her performance might be one of my favorite horror performances of the decade and overall I found the movie surprisingly enjoyable.

Irony.or.Death
Apr 1, 2009


I have a shameful love for Phantom of the Opera, but Schumacher's version sucks and I've never even heard of Bruiser. Last time I watched a Romero movie I'd never heard of it turned out to be Martin, so I like his odds here. I enjoyed the Evil Dead remake but it's far from invincible and Kurosawa's pretty consistently interesting. Looking forward to this one.

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog


This is a week of difficult to find films :canada:

I can't even find Seance on Canadian justwatch to tell me where to find it!

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!

WHAT'S THAT? BAH GOD! IS THAT SIR ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER'S MUSIC I HEAR!? OH MY GOD!!!!

Man I kinda want Schumacher to move ahead just on grounds that he's such a weird iconoclastic director and lol that Phantom of the Opera is his first draw. Honestly, think some of y'all who haven't seen it might be surprised by how goofy and likable it is.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



:spooky: Week 11 Bracketology Streams! :spooky:
:rip: Only on the CineD Discord :rip:

All times are in EST and may not reflect reality.

Saturday, March 13th



1900 Bruiser (2000)
2045 Phantom of the Opera (2004)

Monday, March 8th



1900 Seance (2000)
2045 Evil Dead (2013)

Content Warnings

Bruiser (2000)
Contains strong language, violence, sex and hard drug use

The Phantom Of The Opera (2004)
Contains moderate violence and obsession theme

Seance (2000)
Argentina:13 France:Tous publics Germany:16 New Zealand:M Singapore:PG

Evil Dead (2013)
Contains strong bloody violence, gory horror and very strong language


The Berzerker posted:

This is a week of difficult to find films :canada:

I can't even find Seance on Canadian justwatch to tell me where to find it!

I should be receiving a copy this weekend, so if you can't make the stream I'll be able to hook you up.

Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Mar 13, 2021

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog


I watched Bruiser yesterday and thought it was fine. The premise is neat but it doesn't really go anywhere exciting, it just turns into a "boring pushover snaps and gets revenge" kind of thing. The mask on the lead is really striking and there were some surprises I enjoyed (like Tom Atkins showing up to play another cop, and Peter Stormare's unhinged performance) but I didn't love it and thought Romero might be in trouble. Then I watched Phantom of the Opera which was so slow and boring that my partner and I stopped to check 'how much of this is left' like 15 times. The performances are fine to good, but it's just so loving slow and boring I was angry that I didn't think to watch it on fast forward.

I will be voting for Bruiser.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
I went into Bruiser totally ready to enjoy it and discover some good new Romero but I just couldn't find much to like in it aside from Peter Stormare. The premise is certainly interesting, and seems to be a literal presentation of like a dissociative personality disorder or something like that, but it was just all over the place and had an absolutely terrible script. Like, many scenes had cringe-inducing dialogue to where it took me completely out of the movie. I also got a bit lost at the end and came away not really sure of what even happened there.

Phantom of the Opera is definitely too long, and it's a style of Broadway-like musical that typically isn't my favorite. But the visuals were excellent, every scene was visually striking in some way and the costumes were up there with some of the best big budget productions. So on that alone it gets my vote, plus there were actually a few scenes where the music clicked with me and I was really digging it.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I'm gonna be brief because I really don't have much to say about either film. Neither worked for me at all.

Bruiser is a mess and I could never figure out what its energy was trying to be. Dark comedy, revenge film, vigilante anti hero? The main guy and story even like disappears in the second half for awhile as if Romero got part way through filming, realized things were going bad, and just leaned into Peter Stromare's slimeball energy as the focus of the film. And that kind of keeps it afloat. And then in the last act the whole thing just kind of goes crazy and I don't know what's happening. But the thing is those last 15 minutes or so entertained me and I was at least engaged with the film trying to understand it.

But I was just bored with Phantom of the Opera. I don't know if that's Schumacher's fault. I just don't like this big Broadway style. Lots of candles and wacky costumes don't do anything for me by themselves and I honestly thought things looked a little flat (to the point where I consider that I was watching a non HD copy from Hoopla, but I rent from them often and rarely notice a problem like this). And the story and characters felt very lifeless and through the motions with me, with the possible exception of Minnie Driver's comedy interludes. Butler certain tries his best with the Phantom and isn't nearly bad enough of a singer for it to be a major issue and I love Emmy Rossum but her character is at best drugged out with magic the whole film and at worst just a dumb child repeatedly getting into the stranger's sewer van. I just couldn't get anything from this and it felt LOOOONG. Like way longer than the 2 and 1/2 hours or whatever it was.

I suspect there might be enough style in Phantom to propel it to a victory here, but it won't get my vote, I don't think. Bruiser isn't good but it was at least weird enough to keep me engaged. Phantom was a drag of a watch that I just don't respond to anything it does right and it dragged real bad for me.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



Bruiser is an absolute mess of a film, it’s a comedically terrible conception from the very beginning. Let's discuss the plot very briefly. Henry, played by Jason Flemyng, is presented as having the bougie middle-class dream, a beautiful wife, a career with prospects, a beautiful house, but all of these things are hollow. His house is a DIY disaster, his boss doesn't respect him, and there is zero communication or affection between himself and his wife. He also spends a great deal of time fantasizing about suicide and engaging in unprovoked misogynistic violence.

Romero then takes Henry, this archetype of toxic white-male fragility, and shows him disassociating in a very literal sense, with his face becoming a white mask. Later on in the film, while attacking his wife, Henry says very clearly that he performs these terrible acts not because of any specific harm done to him, but instead because she punctured his identity, revealing this bland nothingness behind the artifice. Now, this could be a terrific jumping-off point for a character study like Martin, in which we follow a reprehensible lead, and get some glimpse into his psychology, and maybe even learn to sympathise with him to an extent, but always with the understanding that his actions are awful. That, however, does not happen with Henry.

Martin is a window into a niche psychological issue. In contrast, Henry represents a broad swathe of privileged men who consider violence to be an acceptable response to being slighted in any small way. Martin is the one in a million disturbed serial killer, Henry is your neighbour, your work colleague, your husband, your father, the man at the bus stop who won’t stop pestering you for your phone number, and I feel like that distinction necessitates that Henry is put under greater scrutiny than Martin. Romero, however, actually reduces the complexity of Henry, and quickly transforms him into some bizarre comic-book antihero, who goes from murdering his housemaid over an alleged theft, to wearing a costume and triumphantly firing lasers at bad bosses while onlookers applaud. The film’s last shot doubles down and presents Henry as some avenging awakened everyman, using horrific levels of violence to address any perceived slight.

So the messaging in the film is some chud masturbation fantasy, but how is the film itself? Peter Stormare makes a valiant attempt to bring some life and colour into this drab little film, but it's honestly a boring and deeply unappetising mess. The vast majority of the dialogue and performances are terrible, there isn't a single exciting kill, and I include the laser in that. The whole affair is some shallow, uninspired, and profoundly suspect mess, and I couldn't see myself voting for it regardless of the competition, but let's look anyway.

Many people have already commented on how baggy and overlong Phantom feels, and perhaps in adapting a two-hour stage musical you could tighten a few strings, make a few cuts, and remove some fat. It's worth noting that the stage version comes with an intermission, something lacking here, unfortunately. If, however, you can move past the obvious issue of the length, you'll find a plush, rich, atmospheric, and deeply moving musical, that at more than one point had me shivering with delight and crying deeply heartfelt tears. From the stream, I can tell that this is a kind of storytelling that doesn't work for some people, and I admit that that's an issue. I might be the only person here who unironically enjoyed the 2019 version of Cats. All I really need to have a good time is Jennifer Hudson singing Memories, and Phantom is no different for me. From the second the chandelier was brought to life, I felt a tingle run up my spine, and it didn't leave until the last somber moments of the film. So while I appreciate that yes, this is not to everyone's taste, it's certainly mine, and I will be voting for it without a second of hesitation.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
Bruiser vs. Phantom of the Opera

To decide who to vote for in this matchup, think of what you would rather see: Joel Schumacher’s Bruiser or George Romero’s Phantom of the Opera. Joel Schumacher’s Bruiser would still have the Misfits concert ending and shooting lasers at Peter Stormare, but there’s no way the first 70 minutes of it would be such a drag. It might also not have an idea of what to do with a script that just seems to be winging it based on the premise of what if a dude woke up with a creepy mask, but it would be opulent, gaudy, gothic, campy, and at least give you something to look at even if the rest of it was boring.

George Romero’s Phantom would be, well, dire? I hate to say it, but he does not make good looking movies. His stuff looks flat, drab, boring, and this is maybe a good look for the zombie apocalypse, but not for Phantom, and not for Bruiser. Some of it looks made for TV – the boardroom meeting at the start, dear lord. The only good part of Romero’s Phantom would be the mask, which in my mind is the Bruiser mask. And I suppose the soundtrack would still rule. I’m still whistling it, drat you Andrew Lloyd Webber!

So voting Schumacher here.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer
I really don't know which way to vote on Evil Dead vs Seance.

What we have is a reboot/remake/sequel vs a remake/adaptation.

I haven't seen Seance on a Wet Afternoon, nor have I read the book, so I don't know how much Seance correlates with those works.

Evil Dead

I know The Evil Dead franchise intimately. And while it may be argued we are voting on individual movies, it is seriously hard to ignore the other Evil Deads when Fede Alvarez also knows those films intimately and has crafted his film out of his love for the originals, his love for horror films, and subverting the expectations of fans while also servicing them. So, to take Fede's film as it's own thing, in a way, is a disservice to the work he put into it, because it is, to my mind, one of the most thoughtful continuations of an already-great series.

Evil Dead is fascinating, because it does not contradict it's predecessors. There is enough inferences to believe that this takes place after Ash's (film) story. (Ash vs. Evil Dead hadn't been made yet. The success of this film, I believe, is one of the reasons that show was made.) For those worried about canon and timelines, Bruce Campbell himself, when asked for where this fits into the Evil Dead timeline, says (approx.) "We're dealing with the Book of the Dead, a powerful magical artifact. It's not bound by realities. So the biggest question in (Fede's film) is 'How did the book get in this basement of this cabin?' is hard to answer, because the book itself defies logic. It can bend reality and maybe even exist in different realities at the same time."

Fede's version of the Book of the Dead tells you everything you need to know about the remake. It clearly establishes the rules of the demons. It foreshadows many of the events of the films. The cover and illustrations have changed from the original (including little nods to the previous films). Most notably, every entry has layers of commentary on them, implying multiple generations of victims of the Book warning of it's power. This all points to a continuation instead of a restart, but also provides a heady implication of how the franchise itself has influenced it's fans, and how the fans influence the franchise.



I should mention now that after watching this film, I watched the special features included on the blu-ray. This includes multiple interviews with Fede Alvarez, the cast (especially Jane Levy who gets multiple featurettes), the producers including Bruce Campbell, and making-of featurettes where they show how they did some of the more difficult physical effects in the film, and a lot of the design choices in the film (especially the Book of the Dead). If there's anything this taught me, it's this: this was a labor of love from everyone involved. They chose to do all physical effects for this film, including an actual blood-rain geyser, which made filming the entire film exponentially more difficult than anything the actors had done previously. There's a great moment where Fede shares an e-mail Bruce Campbell wrote the entire cast as production began, to wish them luck and good spirits: "Movies that were easy to film are difficult to watch."

One of my favorite aspects of Evil Dead is the new full-orchestra score by Roque Baños, which incorporates everything from soft piano, Latin chants, sirens, distorted sounds, and even samples from the original Book of the Dead recordings made by Professor Raymond Knowby from the original The Evil Dead film. I'm actually listening to the score as I write this. The chorus of voices creates such an other-worldly layer to the score, like souls of the damned are singing their pain as the minions of hell torment the characters. Sadly there wasn't a feature on the blu-ray interviewing him, which is a drat shame, but I did find this interview, which I want to share:

https://filmmusicinstitute.com/interview-with-roque-banos/ posted:

Do you think composing on the often-extreme movies of Alex de la Iglesias like THE LAST CIRCUS has made you immune to the violence in EVIL DEAD? Or were you disturbed to work on this picture day in and day out?
I’ve made music for many extreme scenes, but never more so than EVIL DEAD‘s. I had nightmares for the first 2 weeks. And sure, I had to close my eyes several times during that period. But of course, after that, I was immune.

Probably the most unique, and hair-raising instrument in the score is an actual siren, which might be a first for a horror score. How did you hit on that idea?
It was coming from those nightmares that I got right when I began to score the film. I spent several nights dreaming about demons chasing me and chopping my body apart! I always awoken suddenly by police sirens. One night I was really annoyed by that siren, and thought it might cause the same impression in the movie, so I made the sample and used it in some places. Fede rapidly loved it, and we started spreading it out through the whole movie. I was really a discovery!

How did you want to use a “Kandarian demon” chorus in this score? And were you worried about writing any vocal incantations that could truly unleash something unholy?
I was actually concerned a little bit about it, LOL. But I didn’t worry too much! My good friend Juan Miguel Valero is Dean Professor of Latin at the Salamanca Royal University in Spain, and provided me with some translations from Latin texts. So we got a bunch of Latin phrases that I used in choral parts that corresponded with was happening in the scenes. But never used any satanic verses, or anything close to them. The funny thing was that the recording was made in an old church that re-converted into an amazing recording space called Air Studios, at London. It’s one of the best in the world, together with Abbey Road, in my opinion.

I'll Do What I Gotta Do
Come Back To Me
Abominations Rising
The Pendant / Evil Tango (So. loving. Good.)
A Live Orchestral Performance conducted by Baños

At the heart of Alvarez's Evil Dead, and I think what largely separates this film from it's predecessors, is the work that went into the characters. An often-repeated idea throughout all the interviews, especially with the actors, is how much work went into the reality of the situation. Because the idea is so over-the-top and fantastic, Alvarez wanted the emotional work of the characters and their decisions and actions to be grounded in honesty. The events of the film are insane, and a great deal of thought was put in by the actors and Alvarez into getting the characters to react with humanity. There is a segment where they show how they went through multiple read-throughs of the script over the course of a few weeks, with the whole cast present. Each of the actors was allowed to make changes to the script and their characters. While a lot of time is spent with Jane Levy, who went through absolute hell in her experiences to bring Mia to life (at the time she said it's been the most difficult role she's had, physically and emotionally, and I wonder if that's still true eight years later), it was really interesting to hear Lou Taylor Pucci discuss his character Eric and tracing his story throughout the film, elaborating on the perspective of the character who unleashes Hell onto his friends. I was also delighted by the many "actorly" techniques they used to get into character, including walking into the pitch-black woods (at night; they mostly filmed at night) away from the set, where they would be isolated and paranoid/scared. Although I wasn't clear where they filmed, Alvarez mentions that they intentionally found a place "where there had been real bloodshed" with dark spiritual connotations, and the cast and crew were legitimately spooked. "We were really in the woods, and it really was scary." If there's one thing that I might list as a complaint against this film, it's a pedantic one, an aesthetic taste, and one that's a larger complaint against modern Hollywood: the cast is super attractive. A hard complaint to take seriously with the amount of work they put into this film.

I also have to commend Aaron Morton's cinematography. I remember in 2013, in my early days of posting in CineD, where there was a discussion about Cabin in the Woods and Evil Dead. Specifically, how Cabin in the Woods is perfunctory to the point of banal ugliness, and how Evil Dead's set design and cinematography are soaked in organic character. It was an important discussion for my development as a film viewer, and cemented my appreciation for CineD. Here we had two films about cabins in woods, and how vastly different the approaches were to filming them, and how much they affect the mood of the film and it's story. Cabin's cinematography is so "plastic" that it reads hollow to me now, and Evil Dead's cinematography feels organic and lively, like they found the original cabin, somehow, and filmed a new movie.

The original Evil Dead (yes, we've gotta talk about it) had a modest budget and relied on the affordable technology at the time. The aspect ratio, the film stock, and the lighting all contribute to it's iconic Cinéma vérité feel (much like the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre), which makes it's energetic and bizarre camera choices wonderful to look at, and disturbing as it helps distorting the reality of the viewers. This can't be replicated in a 2013 movie, and as much as we love it, we can't ask the latest Evil Dead entry to try; it would be shallow mimicry.

Instead, there is an emphasis on the organic (aided heavily by the sound design). Many of the natural colors of the woods were color-graded, as is the way of modern horror, but they aren't wholly compromised.








I especially like this shot, which is a moving tracking shot from the eaves of a roof being pelted by rain, to David (seen here) taking trash out, to a fresh puddle of blood being diluted by the rain, which then flows into a trail that leads David to Grandpa's corpse. Hard to convey in a single picture, but an impressive use of visual storytelling with a foreboding mood.







Each of these shots, in a way, fails to convey the actual work behind them, because almost all of them incorporate subtle yet precise camera movement. There are very few static shots in this film, and yet it's never exhausting, or nauseating. The action is clear, the tone permeates the scenes, and there is a lot of care to convey the space of the woods, the cabin, the basement, etc..


I saw Evil Dead in theaters almost eight years ago now. I can't say I've revisited it as often as I have the original two films. I can say that on this revisit, I had the same visceral reactions to the scares and gore. I'm not often made squeamish by a film, nor do I startle easy, and yet Evil Dead did both. To this day, I can easily consider it one of the most gruesome horror movies of the last decade. It accomplishes so much, that I'll venture to say that it's successful in the most difficult--yet desired--challenge of the current Hollywood climate: to appease fans with just enough old and just enough new, win over new fans, and to stand unique while still under the shadows of its predecessors. There's a reason why Evil Dead won the Horror Franchise War, and Fede Alvarez's unique entry into the series, made out of a deep love and appreciation for the original and the genre, is definitely a heavy contribution to that win.

This was a long entry, so I'm gonna try and give Seance it's own post.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Mar 17, 2021

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Its Wednesday! I think. I haven't slept, everything's fuzzy, and for some reason I was convinced all day yesterday it was Saturday and I'm still not convinced it wasn't... for some reason.

Anyway, assuming its truly Wednesday as THEY say it is Happy St Patrick's day and that means you have... gently caress... motherfucking... 41... and a half hours? gently caress... I dunno. Vote until 3 AM EST Mar 19th (or when I wake up).

So if you're like me and still haven't watched them all and voted you've got some time still.

I'm gonna watch Seance. Or sleep. Or drink a Guinness. Or sleep after that. Or... what were we talking about? God I'm exhausted. Thank god its the weekend.

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MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
So I had been putting off my vote, and hell debated abstaining this week because I had to faith in or motivation to watch Joel's Phantom movie. Boy was I foolish. I loved it's decadence and found myself glued to it from the first organ drop to the final fade. Just a lovely film with amazing craftsmanship.

Bruiser otoh, was mediocre, though comedic and at times inventive. Sorry Romero but you ain't getting my vote this week.

Evil Dead and Seance is a wayyyyy closer match-up. I initially felt that ED would be an easy favorite for me over Seance, it's a solid remake that makes me laugh, fist pump, hoot, and dare I say... holler. It's a solid flick.

Seance, then kicked down the doors with a unique almost Coen esque style crime drama with the added elements of a haunting. I really liked the characters, they all feel unique and like real people. The couple is great, their relationship's cracks growing as their greed and failure mounts. A cop describing himself as always wrong makes me laugh days later. Kurosawa also films the movie incredibly. Dividing up the already cramped 4:3 space into even more tiny boxes and using some clever motions of the camera characters can be just a few feet apart but feel miles away from each other. It's so drat effective.

I flipped a coin, Seance won it. But if I could, I'd push both teams through.

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