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4000 Dollar Suit posted:Oh poo poo, everyone get ready to change their opinion. They basically agree with the thread about ZSJL vs the Whedon version lol  Still hate BvS tho 
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Mar 22, 2021 19:25
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Rewatched Man of Steel with a friend, and just to make sure, the AFSP billboard outside Flash's place in Justice League says "You are not alone," right? Because LOL at the coincidence of that being Zod's first message to Earth.
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Mar 22, 2021 19:27
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Is the BvS remaster replacing the Ultimate Edition on HBO Max?
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Mar 22, 2021 19:27
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2house2fly posted:Is the BvS remaster replacing the Ultimate Edition on HBO Max? Honestly have no idea what happened with this because they still have not updated the HBO Max version while its been updated on every other service its on. Both UE and theatricals are by default the IMAX editions now.
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Mar 22, 2021 19:33
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Barry Foster posted:I've always found it completely baffling as well. MoS is incredibly optimistic, probably the most optimistic cape flick to date. It's just that Clark actually has to work through some pretty heavy poo poo to win out and doesn't make many quips while doing it. Nah, I hate to compare directly to Avengers because there's lots of other possibilities, but in Avengers loving half of everybody died and they tried to actually make you feel that loss just like Snyder films do, and yet it doesn't feel grimdark at all. Its serious, people die, there are stakes, but its not grimdark. This isn't a binary, and you're dismissing criticism and being overly defensive with that argument. Snyder's films do tend towards grim in a way that you don't have to just to have stakes. I liked ZSJL a lot more than I thought I would, but part of that is because it has better characterization and plot pacing and its lighter than both MOS and BVS. Saying "Well people just can't handle there being stakes!" is a cop-out. The REAL Goobusters posted:It just has a darker color palette than most of the really popular MCU movies. The colorful palette critics of these movies claimed they wanted was what happened in the theatrical version of justice league. Just looking straight up like a TV series on the CW or something. This is also a cop-out. Its not the color. Although doing monochromatic bad guys that are just black on steel sure doesn't do the color any service. Lots of things look very Transformers where your eyes just gloss over the details, but that's a totally separate issue. We're talking about the tone of the movie. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 19:44
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Josh Lyman posted:Darkseid’s design makes him look like an old balding guy with a chinstrap beard. 
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Mar 22, 2021 19:46
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:Oh poo poo, everyone get ready to change their opinion. You should watch the video before you post lol, they liked it. (As many people already posted before you)
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Mar 22, 2021 19:49
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Don't post photos of the anti life equation without NSFW tags, please.
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Mar 22, 2021 19:49
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Wish I was any good with photoshop because lol
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Mar 22, 2021 19:52
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broke: Whedon made Justice League bad because he's inept woke: Whedon made Justice League bad as revenge for Snyder attacking him with Sucker Punch
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Mar 22, 2021 19:52
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Recently completed my first watch and working my way through this thread. Just the level of scope and ambition on this thing is insane. Someone remarked how skilled, both in depth and breadth, a director of comic-book films really needs to be, and I think that's been made quite apparent in the Snyder Cut.Tuxedo Catfish posted:Sucker Punch is Snyder's best film and both better than, and a critique of, the entire narrative and aesthetic standard that Whedon represents  I also think it's his best film. You also wrote that the film could be described as 'blunt', which I think is apt. The idea that the film is muddled in its messaging is mostly rooted in its serious commitment to the harrowing subject matter. It's just not really addressed in our culture, never-mind in what should be a schlocky genre action film. My first impression is that the Snyder Cut is a more palatable, and slightly inverted, version of Sucker Punch, where you have these isolated individuals, fueled by the power of myth & fantasy, utilizing their trauma to locate the MacGuffins of the story.
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Mar 22, 2021 19:53
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Zaphod42 posted:Nah, I hate to compare directly to Avengers because there's lots of other possibilities, but in Avengers loving half of everybody died and they tried to actually make you feel that loss just like Snyder films do, and yet it doesn't feel grimdark at all. Its serious, people die, there are stakes, but its not grimdark. I don't disagree with this take-down of the "stakes" or color, but this also doesn't have an actual explanation for what exactly is "grimdark"* about MoS or BvS, so I would love to hear one. I feel like the closest I've seen is the Batman "rape" quote from Snyder where he is talking about the Watchmen setting specifically and doesn't match the tone of any of the DC super hero work he's done at all. *frankly, I've even never seen a satisfying explanation for what that word even loving means, I always thought it had its roots in 90s/eary 2000s comic books that had focus on extreme violence and occasional sexual assault (see: Kyle Rayner's girlfriend being dismembered and stuffed into a fridge to motivate his character) but, again, Snyder's stuff is not really remotely like that
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Mar 22, 2021 19:57
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Grimdark merely means "I didn't like the tone" for whoever is saying it. That's literally it. It has unfortunately been totally stripped of meaning beyond that. Man of Steel is a movie where a guy in a blue suit with a big red cape and big red boots and who is powered by the sun saves the entire Earth from black-clad evil space-fascists/genociding colonialists. There is literally nothing "grim" about it, unless the fact that the movie actually takes the stakes seriously and focuses on the consequences to ordinary people around this incident bothers the viewer. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 20:09
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Grimdark merely means "I didn't like the tone" for whoever is saying it. That's literally it. It has unfortunately been totally stripped of meaning beyond that. I really wish the last scene of the movie didn't instantly undo all those stakes and consequences.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:15
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imo the remotely closest thing to kind of hacky grimdark poo poo in any of Snyder’s DC movies is the joker/batman conversation. the dialogue feels a little edgy for edgy’s sake in a way that feels like something a teenager would write. but it was a late addition and basically an end credits teaser scene so it didn’t bother me there’s nothing I’d consider grimdark anywhere else in his trilogy, which to me is usually defined by kind of tonally aberrant graphic darkness that feels solely there to titillate the viewer/reader rather than make sense within the existing story or universe. any scenes that stand out in mind as Dark (drowning in skulls, neck snap, etc) feel very much tonally consistent and serve a purpose
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Mar 22, 2021 20:15
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Vince MechMahon posted:I really wish the last scene of the movie didn't instantly undo all those stakes and consequences. The last scene of the movie is him realizing that his father knew he would grow up to be a good man. If you're talking about the drone scene then yeah, it's some severe tonal whiplash and I agree it's not great. Same with the ground zero kiss: two scenes that just kinda don't work but are over in less than a minute each and never discussed or referenced again. I really do think Snyder underestimated how the exausting last hour of Man of Steel would leave audiences mentally.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:17
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Grimdark merely means "I didn't like the tone" for whoever is saying it. That's literally it. It has unfortunately been totally stripped of meaning beyond that. I'm gonna spam this to my dumbass friend because he probably said "grimdark" like a dozen times when explaining why he thought the Snyder cut was "pretty rear end and tbh worse than the original." He also thought Superman wasn't optimistic enough? I'm really starting to think he just knee-jerk reacted with "it's bad" and then had to create reasons why when he found out that almost everyone in the world thought it was a huge improvement.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:18
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The use of "Grimdark" is more about criticizing the creator and hypothetical audience as being adolescent in their taste. Try to pin down what are the qualifications for the work itself to be "grimdark" and it falls apart.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:18
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Zack Snyder treats every movie he's directed as if it's the most important film of all time. If you disagree that what your watching is important, it's gonna feel self absorbed, operatic and "grimdark". Everything is grand, over the top, and untethered from reality. None of these characters are supposed to be realistic, they're supposed to be gods and the films are supposed to be American mythology. Contrast that with Avengers where the whole point is them being relatable and flawed to the point where Tony Stark gives up being Ironman in like 3 different movies. I like these operatic DC movies but I don't think I'd ever watch any of them more than once.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The last scene of the movie is him realizing that his father knew he would grow up to be a good man. If you're talking about the drone scene then yeah, it's some severe tonal whiplash and I agree it's not great. Same with the ground zero kiss: two scenes that just kinda don't work but are over in less than a minute each and never discussed or referenced again. I'm talking about the scene where he happily walls down the totally rebuilt and happy streets of metropolis into the miraculously fully rebuilt and staffed daily planet where a man is covering a basketball game that night. It's a great way to say "nothing you just watched actually meant anything to anyone," and is the worst part of all three movies, with no small part of that being it contradicts everything that comes after it.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:20
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One thing that's always confused me about the "grimdark" conversation is that the Nolan movies are pretty gritty and "dark," but they're much better regarded than MoS and BvS by critics, and I don't recall there being much complaint about the tone (although I could certainly be misremebering) - is there a consensus explanation for this kind of mismatch?
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Mar 22, 2021 20:22
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Vince MechMahon posted:I'm talking about the scene where he happily walls down the totally rebuilt and happy streets of metropolis into the miraculously fully rebuilt and staffed daily planet where a man is covering a basketball game that night. It's a great way to say "nothing you just watched actually meant anything to anyone," and is the worst part of all three movies, with no small part of that being it contradicts everything that comes after it. I don't think you're supposed to think that everything is happy and perfectly rebuilt (and in fact in BvS they show you that the ground zero area has been turned into a big park and memorial). Life goes on though. Also the Daily Planet building was not destroyed during the attack. smug n stuff posted:One thing that's always confused me about the "grimdark" conversation is that the Nolan movies are pretty gritty and "dark," but they're much better regarded than MoS and BvS by critics, and I don't recall there being much complaint about the tone (although I could certainly be misremebering) - is there a consensus explanation for this kind of mismatch? It's pure "not my Superman". There are certain people who literally believe that certain plots and a certain tone are off-limits for a Superman movie because of what he represents to them.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:22
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Mandrel posted:imo the remotely closest thing to kind of hacky grimdark poo poo in any of Snyder’s DC movies is the joker/batman conversation. the dialogue feels a little edgy for edgy’s sake in a way that feels like something a teenager would write. but it was a late addition and basically an end credits teaser scene so it didn’t bother me Yeah this is basically where I'm at, there's dark stuff but there's context around it and typically the outcome is more hopeful than people give it credit for (e.g. taking the Pa Kent "maybe [you shouldn't have saved them]" or Ma Kent's "you don't owe them anything" out of the greater context of Clark's arc and where it leads) At the same time if there is an earnest response to why "the snap" from IW isn't grimdark but "the snap" from MoS is I would love to hear it
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Mar 22, 2021 20:25
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I don't really think anyone can argue this is better than the theatrical cut. I mean it had to be right? I still don't think its a good movie. It's fundamentally flawed and handcuffed from the jump by needing to provide hours of exposition and explanations for characters we should already know. 4 hours is a loving lot, and while I think it was cool he was allowed to do this, I think it's also easy to see why this product was always going to struggle as a theatrical release. Steppenwolf is the biggest beneficiary of this cut along with Cyborg/Fisher being the obvious next biggest beneficiary. The color grading is still awful, and the plot made more sense, but the anti-life equation was not handled well imo, its a big macguffin that no one wants to explain but everyone treats as super important (and it's only brought up well past the half way point of the film). Better than it being the motherboxes as macguffins I guess. e: grimdark definition. Look no further than Games Workshop for this one, 40k is grimdark. All that means is that the outcomes are always bad with worse around the corner. No amount of "victory" changes the equation that all outcomes are ultimately bad and will lead to just varying degrees of more bad after them. In that regard I don't really think any of the Snyder DC films are Grimdark, maybe BvS but it's also sort of in the weird 2nd in a trilogy spot now where the bad outcome is just setup for the heroic conclusion. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 20:26
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah this is basically where I'm at, there's dark stuff but there's context around it and typically the outcome is more hopeful than people give it credit for (e.g. taking the Pa Kent "maybe [you shouldn't have saved them]" or Ma Kent's "you don't owe them anything" out of the greater context of Clark's arc and where it leads) Because we knew the Malthusian Apocalypse victory was going to be immediately reversed.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:26
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I worked through this over the weekend and while it was better than the theatrical cut, I can totally see how they didn't want to release this originally. 4 hours is too long and the film is just trying to do too much. I've been trying to distill down what I think the core problems with the DC movies are and I think it's 2 things: 1) The DCEU was too rushed because they were trying to catch up with Marvel. This movie crams 3 brand new main heroes into it, the Snyder cut does a better job of fleshing them out, but we're still playing catch up the entire time about who they are and what they can actually do. 2) Disney/Marvel made action movies that are based in comics and the DC movies are comic movies. One of the reasons I think the Marvel movies have had such incredible success is they've taken comic characters and stories and made them more digestible for the masses. These DC movies are basically live action versions of the animated movies they've been making for years. Obviously comic book fans will love that, but widespread audiences not as much. This snowballs with the first point because there's so much comic book poo poo tossed at you so quickly. I'm left conflicted, I liked it overall despite it's issues, but it all feels like a waste as none of the plot threads they start will ever get continued.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:27
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Ouhei posted:I'm left conflicted, I liked it overall despite it's issues, but it all feels like a waste as none of the plot threads they start will ever get continued. I am not digging on you specifically, but the attitude that the time you spent with the work is wasted because it won't lead to future cape poo poo is a bit unhealthy, imo.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:28
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I don't think you're supposed to think that everything is happy and perfectly rebuilt (and in fact in BvS they show you that the ground zero area has been turned into a big park and memorial). Life goes on though. The next movie contradicting it makes it worse, not better. They should just cut that scene retroactively.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:30
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Vince MechMahon posted:The next movie contradicting it makes it worse, not better. They should just cut that scene retroactively. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but this is just coming out of left field to me. I'm baffled and have never heard this complaint before, at all.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:31
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Ouhei posted:I worked through this over the weekend and while it was better than the theatrical cut, I can totally see how they didn't want to release this originally. 4 hours is too long and the film is just trying to do too much. I've been trying to distill down what I think the core problems with the DC movies are and I think it's 2 things: I somehow doubt the Zack Snyder theatrical cut would have been four hours and if he was adamant on that I can see Warner Bros. hitting the panic button. This feels more like "as intended theatrically" + "mostly superfluous director's cut stuff"
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Mar 22, 2021 20:32
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Zaphod42 posted:Saying "Well people just can't handle there being stakes!" is a cop-out. Almost like when people use the incredibly nebulous term "grimdark" sincerely as if it means anything.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:33
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He wanted to make superhero Lord of the Rings, we just only got the Extended Edition
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Mar 22, 2021 20:33
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I somehow doubt the Zack Snyder theatrical cut would have been four hours and if he was adamant on that I can see Warner Bros. hitting the panic button. This feels more like "as intended theatrically" + "mostly superfluous director's cut stuff" It would have been inferior if it got cut down. Every single director's cut of every single Snyder film (Watchmen, Sucker Punch, and ESPECIALLY Batman v Superman) is way better than the theatrical.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:35
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Vince MechMahon posted:The next movie contradicting it makes it worse, not better. They should just cut that scene retroactively. For all that the movie references 9/11, it is a very different situation because Superman completely defeats the enemies right after it happens. Yes it's insanely traumatic and terrifying, but people would be relieved in the months after it was over and that doesn't mean none of it mattered.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:35
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I am not digging on you specifically, but the attitude that the time you spent with the work is wasted because it won't lead to future cape poo poo is a bit unhealthy, imo.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:36
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I somehow doubt the Zack Snyder theatrical cut would have been four hours and if he was adamant on that I can see Warner Bros. hitting the panic button. This feels more like "as intended theatrically" + "mostly superfluous director's cut stuff" It reminded me, in terms of production, of a properly spliced version of Fire Walk With Me and Missing Pieces: the totality of the director's vision, no exceptions.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:38
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DC being darker (gently caress I hate even typing it) is a necessity because when they try to write lighthearted/humor like MCU they fail miserably. Probably one of the biggest improvements of the Snyder cut was removing the quippy one-liners that felt forced in. This isn't to say that the MCU doesn't also have lovely cringe humor sometimes, but overall I'd say they pull it off WAY better most of the time.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:38
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Martman posted:I just re-watched the movie, and I don't think there are any details at all that indicate how much time has passed between the previous stuff and this scene. The next movie makes it pretty clear that not that much time has passed, maybe a couple years, and the ramifications are still being felt then. Unlike in that last scene, which does not fit and to this day feels like a studio mandated inclusion to me.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:40
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I'm just saying, "ramifications being felt" is not exclusive with "people being relieved." People seek normalcy after traumatic experiences and someone smiling after a bad thing happens doesn't mean they forgot about it or something.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:41
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Timeless Appeal posted:The movie includes tons of things like Darkseid, Anti-Life, Martian Manhunter, the Knightmare future, that aren't fully explored in this film. It's admirable in a way that Snyder really stuck with an incredibly literal version of his dream cut as he would have made it in 2017 undeterred with hooks for sequels and everything. But it very much is a movie that is promising a sequel in a way that like Nolan's films or Man of Steel don't necessarily. The Star Wars extended universe stuff made an entire industry out of "the movies didn't follow up on this ancillary character, but we did!", it's very Fan Mindset. Also all Kirby's Fourth World stuff exists, all the comics these are based on exist. If people want to follow up with all these characters they can read a Vox article or watch an IGN vid that explains who these characters are and where they are going/gone. Hell they could even read the comics, if they were so inclined!
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Mar 22, 2021 20:41
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