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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Grimdark merely means "I didn't like the tone" for whoever is saying it. That's literally it. It has unfortunately been totally stripped of meaning beyond that. This is literally arguing semantics. Different people may not have the same definition of a word, but that doesn't inherently invalidate their take. Argue with the message, not the language. Nroo posted:The use of "Grimdark" is more about criticizing the creator and hypothetical audience as being adolescent in their taste. Try to pin down what are the qualifications for the work itself to be "grimdark" and it falls apart. You could say the same things about "Edgy". Does that mean all criticism of a work being overly "Edgy" is irrelevant? No, this is, again, just writing off anybody who disagrees with you as invalid. Its not a good argument. This thread gets awful echo chambery sometimes.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:42
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I’ve got a question about Darkseid and Steppenwolf. Are there Amazons and Atlanteans elsewhere in the universe? Or are they specific to Earth? Steppenwolf seems to recognize them, which means either he’s been to earth before, or he’s faced them elsewhere in the universe. When Darkseid first came to earth and lit the ground up with runes, did he know he’d just found the Anti-Life Equation? Because Steppenwolf seeing the runes seems to be what clued him in. I ask because if that’s the case, it seems like one of them might be a little slow on the uptake. So Darkseid found the runes, knew what he was looking at, fought Amazons and Atlanteans, and then lost. Then Steppenwolf shows up, sees Amazons and Atlanteans, and should have instantly known the Anti-Life Equation was there because they’re the ones who kicked Darkseid’s rear end the first time he found the Equation. So either: Darkseid didn’t know what the runes meant when he first saw them (but Steppenwolf somehow did) Steppenwolf didn’t know A&As were present at the first battle (but he knows what they are when he sees them). Also who was the person to Darkseid’s left? Not Desaad, the one with the pike. Are they a comic character, or just a random lieutenant or something?
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Mar 22, 2021 20:43
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smug n stuff posted:One thing that's always confused me about the "grimdark" conversation is that the Nolan movies are pretty gritty and "dark," but they're much better regarded than MoS and BvS by critics, and I don't recall there being much complaint about the tone (although I could certainly be misremebering) - is there a consensus explanation for this kind of mismatch? Art isn't a beep boop binary. You can do grimdark well and you can do grimdark poorly. Additionally, a LOT of appreciating art is expectations and setup. If people go into your movie expecting one thing and get something else, it chafes, even if you did that other thing well. There are lots and lots of examples of this, where a good work is mismarketed or people get the wrong impression, or they even try to pull a twist, and it backfires because the audience isn't in the mood or prepared for that story.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:45
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Zaphod42 posted:This is literally arguing semantics. Grimdark is a meaningless word that refers to an emotional reaction to images and sounds, which varies between the individual. There's nothing that you can say that's "grimdark" that you will receive 100% agreement on, because it's totally subjective. Furthermore, there's nothing to argue. If you don't like the tone of the movie that's your right and perogative and there's nothing to engage. What, do you seriously think I can flip the opinion of an internet stranger who decided at a young age that Superman is THE cape daddy and needs to be a beacon of hope and light and never make serious mistakes and prevent all consequences?
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Mar 22, 2021 20:45
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quote:Also who was the person to Darkseid’s left? Not Desaad, the one with the pike. Are they a comic character, or just a random lieutenant or something? That is Snyder's take on Granny Goodness.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I am not digging on you specifically, but the attitude that the time you spent with the work is wasted because it won't lead to future cape poo poo is a bit unhealthy, imo. When a lot of the plot is specifically set-up for further works that won't happen, that's different. Its like you're intentionally twisting what this goon said, they're not saying the movie was a waste of time and you're deliberately forcing that. But you even recognize that's not fair so you say "not digging on you specifically" you just... want to flog a strawman.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:46
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Yeah I similarly don't think Snyder would have ever pushed for a 4 hour theatrical back in 2017 even if he hadn't been struggling with the studio so much and hadn't had the personal tragedy. For one thing, the epilogue is all expanded post-credit stuff that would easily cut an extra 25 minutes even from this cut. I do think he would have ideally wanted a 3 hour plus cut which does have some precedent with the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Endgame. Cutting it down to 2 hours while also keeping it as a movie that introduces 3 new heroes and the core Apokolips plot would have been a little tight tho, which is why I think the 2 hour mandate was the final straw for him. Another thing to keep in mind was that this was filming pretty close after BvS, it was released just a year later and the plans changed pretty rapidly (relatively) from a trilogy to a 2-parter to a standalone film. I'd imagine if they released BvS then took a break and came back to reevaluate what they were going to do and wanted to do a single stand-alone Justice League movie it would have been a lot less ambitious. The plan to introduce a lot of these characters and concepts seems a lot more reasonable if you're dealing with 2 or 3 movies than a single movie, especially when the studio keeps trying to trim it as short as they can.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:46
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Nroo posted:The use of "Grimdark" is more about criticizing the creator and hypothetical audience as being adolescent in their taste. Try to pin down what are the qualifications for the work itself to be "grimdark" and it falls apart. I think it means the work is grim and dark
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Mar 22, 2021 20:47
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Arkage posted:Almost like when people use the incredibly nebulous term "grimdark" sincerely as if it means anything. The argument isn't "this is bad because its grimdark" the argument is "I don't like parts of this, its grimdark" you may not like that word but you're arguing semantics to say its invalid because of the word choice. They have a feeling that backs that opinion whether you understand it or not.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:47
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snyder had already turned in cuts that were under 3 hours to WB before he left.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:48
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Grimdark is a meaningless word that refers to an emotional reaction to images and sounds, which varies between the individual. There's nothing that you can say that's "grimdark" that you will receive 100% agreement on, because it's totally subjective. Furthermore, there's nothing to argue. If you don't like the tone of the movie that's your right and perogative and there's nothing to engage. What, do you seriously think I can flip the opinion of an internet stranger who decided at a young age that Superman is THE cape daddy and needs to be a beacon of hope and light and never make serious mistakes and prevent all consequences? That's art. You can say the same thing about calling a movie "good". Does that mean movies aren't good? Really disingenuous argument dude. Guy A. Person posted:Yeah I similarly don't think Snyder would have ever pushed for a 4 hour theatrical back in 2017 even if he hadn't been struggling with the studio so much and hadn't had the personal tragedy. For one thing, the epilogue is all expanded post-credit stuff that would easily cut an extra 25 minutes even from this cut. I do think he would have ideally wanted a 3 hour plus cut which does have some precedent with the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Endgame. Cutting it down to 2 hours while also keeping it as a movie that introduces 3 new heroes and the core Apokolips plot would have been a little tight tho, which is why I think the 2 hour mandate was the final straw for him. I agree. And that's one thing that RLM complained about that I feel is a non-issue, they said the long ending would work better as after-credits sequence. Well... if this was in theaters... it probably WOULD be an after-credits sequence. But since it ended up as the "Snyder Cut" on HBO things are different. Knowing that, this is basically "Zach Snyder's Justice League Extended" (oh my god I'm risking ire just saying that, but hopefully you understand my meaning here), you could have had a shorter theatrical ZSJL with things edited, and then have the final blu-ray release with all these scenes we got on HBO. There's no reason to hold back if he's already making an HBO cut for fans, if its gonna be 3 hours just go all the way and include everything, full 4 hours. But we don't know what would have happened otherwise. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 20:49
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Zaphod42 posted:This is literally arguing semantics. I mean, I can't speak for anyone else but I am asking you directly about the message. So far all you've given is the language and not a real analysis of why MoS and BvS are "grimdark" while MCU is not. That's why I asked what grimdark meant. Arguing the message instead of the language is fine but the problem is people often don't give an actual message, they just drop a buzzword like that and think it's self evident what it means.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:50
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what if the excessiveness of the post-credit scenes is satire on Marvel
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Mar 22, 2021 20:50
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Its Chocolate posted:what if the excessiveness of the post-credit scenes is satire on Marvel It wouldn't be. Just taken on its own merits it would be a satire of the end of Return of the King.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:51
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Aidan_702 posted:I don't know if this is the thing you're in fact referring to but in one the spider-man films there's a building in the background that says 'the korean church of asguard' I wasn't aware no, but that's pretty cool. It always seemed to me it should be a way bigger deal to find out that hey, norse mythology was basically 85% real
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Mar 22, 2021 20:51
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I don't really think anyone can argue this is better than the theatrical cut. I mean it had to be right? My friend said he thought the theatrical cut was better because it was more coherent. When pressed, he was annoyed at how long scenes are. Or browse Rotten Tomatoes and you can find reviews like this, where the reviewer must really love Joss Whedon movies: https://www.ashevillemovies.com/new/zack-snyders-justice-league Asheville movies posted:It’s a fitting omission, as the rest of this four-hour extended version is one giant middle finger to Whedon and the mirth, brevity, and competent storytelling he brought to his surprisingly respectable patch-up job.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:52
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Zaphod42 posted:The argument isn't "this is bad because its grimdark" the argument is "I don't like parts of this, its grimdark" you may not like that word but you're arguing semantics to say its invalid because of the word choice. They have a feeling that backs that opinion whether you understand it or not. You say this, and yet not a single person who I've hard use "grimdark" as a criticism has ever done this. That's usually as far as the complaint goes. Guy A. Person posted:I mean, I can't speak for anyone else but I am asking you directly about the message. So far all you've given is the language and not a real analysis of why MoS and BvS are "grimdark" while MCU is not. That's why I asked what grimdark meant. Literally this, yes.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:52
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Guy A. Person posted:I mean, I can't speak for anyone else but I am asking you directly about the message. So far all you've given is the language and not a real analysis of why MoS and BvS are "grimdark" while MCU is not. That's why I asked what grimdark meant. Tone is complicated and inherently subjective, trying to enumerate a list of details wouldn't really accomplish much. Also sorry but lots of people are replying and the argument is going in a lot of different directions at the same time. I'm not even myself saying "these movies are bad because they're grimdark" I'm just saying I understand what they mean and "that's wrong because that word is dumb" isn't a good argument. You can disagree that you don't think the tone has issues, but saying "look this take is dumb because it said word" is itself dumb. We're all idiots typing words on a forum, and lots of these are takes taken from twitter or youtube videos. So yeah, they're not going to be detailed academic takes on the work, that's how talking to people about movies goes. Grimdude posted:You say this, and yet not a single person who I've hard use "grimdark" as a criticism has ever done this. That's usually as far as the complaint goes. The complaint not going further doesn't mean they don't have reasons for feeling it. That's human. Its unreasonable to expect everybody to be perfect at explaining their take on art. Some people like some movies and some people don't, they can't all give you Ebert level takes on why. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 20:53
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It wouldn't be. Just taken on its own merits it would be a satire of the end of Return of the King. oh for sure dude
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Mar 22, 2021 20:53
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Zaphod42 posted:That's art. You can say the same thing about calling a movie "good". Does that mean movies aren't good? I don't think that calling a movie "good" serves any value. It's a descriptor that's too broad and individual to be of any value, just like grimdark.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:54
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Zaphod42 posted:this is basically "Zach Snyder's Justice League Extended" (oh my god I'm risking ire just saying that, but hopefully you understand my meaning here) Nah I mean at least for me this is basically what I've been saying and why I agree with the complaints about the Epilogue while still loving the movie, this is exactly like an extended release of a huge blockbuster with all the deleted scenes and extra features stuffed back in
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Mar 22, 2021 20:55
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any way whether something is grimdark isn't really 100% subjective like some guy said. it's 100% subjective whether you like cilantro or not but it's not subjective whether there's cilantro in some food
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Mar 22, 2021 20:56
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I don't think that calling a movie "good" serves any value. It's a descriptor that's too broad and individual to be of any value, just like grimdark. Sure, but if someone posts "I thought ZSJL was good" are you going to call them out on it? Nah you take them for what they mean and move on. Guy A. Person posted:Nah I mean at least for me this is basically what I've been saying and why I agree with the complaints about the Epilogue while still loving the movie, this is exactly like an extended release of a huge blockbuster with all the deleted scenes and extra features stuffed back in Yep. It really is wild thinking about the alternate universe where this was in theaters. How much would be different about the whole JL atmosphere.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:56
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Xenomrph posted:I’ve got a question about Darkseid and Steppenwolf. My take was: Darkseid was the only one who knew that Anti-Life was on earth, neither Desaad or Steppenwolf were aware of this particular fact because they weren’t there. However, Darkseid didn’t know Steppenwolf was conquering earth specifically, because he’s been having Desaad screen his calls and likely didn’t give a poo poo about what steppenwolf was doing aside from “is he keeping up with his quotas? Good.” Hence, he didn’t realize what Stepoenwolf had found until desaad comes to him with the good news. As for your last question: that’s Granny Goodness, Darkseid’s other major underling, who is mostly known in the comics for being Darkseid’s chief slavemaster and torturer, responsible for brainwashing and conditioning prisoners into loyal subjects and terror troops.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:57
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Zaphod42 posted:The complaint not going further doesn't mean they don't have reasons for feeling it. That's human. Its unreasonable to expect everybody to be perfect at explaining their take on art. Some people like some movies and some people don't, they can't all give you Ebert level takes on why. I'd settle for almost any level of explanation, it doesn't have to even come close to "Ebert levels."
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Mar 22, 2021 20:57
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Zaphod42 posted:Sure, but if someone posts "I thought ZSJL was good" are you going to call them out on it? Nah you take them for what they mean and move on. If you disagreed and thought it was bad you would. That's why this is Cinema Discusso and not Cinema Personal Diary.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:58
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Grimdude posted:I'd settle for almost any level of explanation, it doesn't have to even come close to "Ebert levels." Ironic post and username combo 
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Mar 22, 2021 20:58
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Also keep in mind Ebert-level sometimes meant, like, "Jessica Alba has a really nice butt, 3/4 stars"
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Mar 22, 2021 20:59
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Martman posted:Also keep in mind Ebert-level sometimes meant, like, "Jessica Alba has a really nice butt, 3/4 stars" Come on, everyone knows Ebert was a boob guy
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Mar 22, 2021 21:00
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Warhammer guys admit that their thing is grimdark and they like it. why can't Snyder guys
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Mar 22, 2021 21:01
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The Star Wars extended universe stuff made an entire industry out of "the movies didn't follow up on this ancillary character, but we did!", it's very Fan Mindset. An example would be like Monica Rambeau in Captain Marvel. Like yes, there might be intent or interest to expand on her character later on. But she serves her function for that story. Even stuff like the Joker card works thematically with Batman Begins. Yeah, it's a hook, but it's also a signal that Batman's real adventures have begun. Stuff like the Knightmare epilogue or Martian Manhunter doesn't really service the story of this individual movie. You could argue that Darkseid functions as backstory for Steppenwolf, but Darkseid tends to overshadows Steppenwolf. Like you could imagine in this movie, the flashback actually not being of Darkseid at all. You could imagine it being Steppenwolf who invades Earth--yes, I know--but instead it's made very clear that the big bad you actually need to worry about is Darkseid. That doesn't make the movie bad, but this movie in particular has a good amount of stuff that is more table dressing than plot.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:01
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Its Chocolate posted:Warhammer guys admit that their thing is grimdark and they like it. why can't Snyder guys "Just say there are five lights dude, come on."
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Mar 22, 2021 21:03
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:My take was: Darkseid was the only one who knew that Anti-Life was on earth, neither Desaad or Steppenwolf were aware of this particular fact because they weren’t there. However, Darkseid didn’t know Steppenwolf was conquering earth specifically, because he’s been having Desaad screen his calls and likely didn’t give a poo poo about what steppenwolf was doing aside from “is he keeping up with his quotas? Good.” Hence, he didn’t realize what Stepoenwolf had found until desaad comes to him with the good news. That explanation makes a ton of sense, thanks! I know “lol comics”, but is Granny Goodness in any way more badass/cool/compelling than their goofy-rear end name implies?
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Mar 22, 2021 21:04
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Xenomrph posted:That explanation makes a ton of sense, thanks! She's exceptionally evil, but I have ALWAYS hated her character design in comics and in animated incarnations. The whole thing is just like "lol what if a cute old grandma was super evil wouldn't that be wacky?" comics are weird and try a lot of different things. She does have a whole backstory yeah but its... eh.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:06
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Goddamn I forgot how much bad and forced comedy the original had https://youtu.be/JthloGT69Us
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Mar 22, 2021 21:06
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smug n stuff posted:One thing that's always confused me about the "grimdark" conversation is that the Nolan movies are pretty gritty and "dark," but they're much better regarded than MoS and BvS by critics, and I don't recall there being much complaint about the tone (although I could certainly be misremebering) - is there a consensus explanation for this kind of mismatch? I was thinking about this too earlier, and I think it's a mix of Batman "deserving" this kind of dark focus, and also Nolan at the time taking a much more realistic approach when the major comic book movies at the time were gaudy and campy, so it seemed novel. Now they're maybe seen as overplayed, hence the desire to get back to "fun" comic movies (despite the fact that the "fun" MCU has been the dominant comic movie property for the past decade). Even so, there was stuff like Batman not saving Ra's al Ghoul in Batman Begins that Nolan got a lot of flack for at the time for being "not what Batman would have done." Though nowhere near the response that Superman killing Zod got. Timeless Appeal posted:Eh, the Star Wars example isn't great. Boba Fett, Wedge, and whoever all serve their roles in the film. People just want to see more of them. There are whole books about how random people in the Mos Eisley bar helped steal the Death Star plans and poo poo like that. I think that might be more what Megaman's Jockstrap was talking about, just taking complete randos who didn't even necessarily leave a visual impression and covering their lives completely. Not that I'm criticizing because one of the best Star Wars comics runs (the Republic series that followed Quinlan Vos) was based entirely on a background character from Phantom Menace.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:12
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roffels posted:My friend said he thought the theatrical cut was better because it was more coherent. When pressed, he was annoyed at how long scenes are. Or browse Rotten Tomatoes and you can find reviews like this, where the reviewer must really love Joss Whedon movies: Well your friend has a very interesting idea of the definition of coherent, because that is not a word I'd apply to the theatrical cut. I think this cut is way more coherent and manages to connect its dots way way better. Not perfectly, since it leaves a lot of "comic clues" with no follow up or context, but the entire operations actually makes sense for why any of it is happening which was not my memory of the original cut. I do sorta get the "these scenes are really loving long" which was my wifes primary complaint. Did we need those folks singing after Aquaman for nearly 4 minutes? nah, but whatever, he gets to do whatever he wants with the film, really long scenes in a 4 hr film were to be expected imo.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:13
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Zaphod42 posted:Art isn't a beep boop binary. You can do grimdark well and you can do grimdark poorly. Yes, it's obvious that critics liked the grittiness of the Nolan films more than in Snyder's - that they thought he did Grimdark better. I'm wondering if there's a general consensus on what they liked better (I guess I should just go read some reviews). I don't think it's explicable by marketing - the MoS trailers were definitely not setting the film up to be less grim than Nolan's - in fact, IIRC they featured his name heavily in the marketing, as he had a producing role or something.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:13
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:"Just say there are five lights dude, come on." that's you
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Mar 22, 2021 21:13
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Goddamn I forgot how much bad and forced comedy the original had There really is serious cringe in the Whedon Cut. One of the most surprising things was how light and how much humor ZSJL ended up having. The studio freaked out after BvS reviews but it seems like Snyder had already adapted to what people wanted, and they double over corrected. The line from batman about "getting the band back together" I didn't even remember from the theater, just so dumb. And plenty of the little things, like flash falling on Diana, are just gross.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:15
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