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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I don't think that calling a movie "good" serves any value. It's a descriptor that's too broad and individual to be of any value, just like grimdark.

Right, if you just say that a film is good or bad, and don't expand much from there, you're not talking about the film, you're talking about yourself.

People don't dislike things because of 'reasons', they dislike things and find reasons afterwards. The idea that all comments should be taken literally is an issue because people can be poor at communicating.

Its Chocolate posted:

Warhammer guys admit that their thing is grimdark and they like it. why can't Snyder guys

From what I understand, grim-dark implies a hyper-concentrated amounts of badass nihilism. From this standpoint, Nolan's films are way more grim-dark than any of Snyder's films, and he's made one about a zombie apocalypse.

The problem is that a lot these kind of criticisms function as if film history begins and ends with the MCU, and the proof that nothing else is possible is in box office numbers.

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MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

smug n stuff posted:

Yes, it's obvious that critics liked the grittiness of the Nolan films more than in Snyder's - that they thought he did Grimdark better. I'm wondering if there's a general consensus on what they liked better (I guess I should just go read some reviews). I don't think it's explicable by marketing - the MoS trailers were definitely not setting the film up to be less grim than Nolan's - in fact, IIRC they featured his name heavily in the marketing, as he had a producing role or something.

story credit and producer

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

If WB execs weren't loving idiots, Snyder's 214 JL cut could have easily been the theatrical release, and the 240 cut could've been marketed as the Ultimate Edition for HBO Max. Fuckin' dummies.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

smug n stuff posted:

Yes, it's obvious that critics liked the grittiness of the Nolan films more than in Snyder's - that they thought he did Grimdark better. I'm wondering if there's a general consensus on what they liked better (I guess I should just go read some reviews). I don't think it's explicable by marketing - the MoS trailers were definitely not setting the film up to be less grim than Nolan's - in fact, IIRC they featured his name heavily in the marketing, as he had a producing role or something.

No I think its almost the other way around, I think the MoS trailers, and especially BvS trailers, almost primed people to think the films would be more grimdark. They really played up that "DO YOU BLEED?" in the trailer. Where the movie builds up to it. But expectations can also be personal, regardless of marketing. Lots of people just want to take their kids to a fun superhero movie and the more adult themes make it less what they want. None of this is simple 0/1 stuff, there's degrees to all of it and it all combines into a soup that is your experience. So its hard, or even wrong, to try to pin it all down to just one factor.

Nolan's films were grim too, and that's my point earlier where its not specifically that people do or don't like grim, but rather how you handle those things. Its way more subtle than just "This had stakes so I didn't like it!" or "people died, that was too serious for me!" because obviously people love all kinds of horror movies, etc.

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


teagone posted:

If WB execs weren't loving idiots, Snyder's 214 JL cut could have easily been the theatrical release, and the 240 cut could've been marketed as the Ultimate Edition for HBO Max. Fuckin' dummies.

This is in fact what is normally done but WB has been extraordinarily incompetent and rudderless WRT their DC properties.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

KVeezy3 posted:

Right, if you just say that a film is good or bad, and don't expand much from there, you're not talking about the film, you're talking about yourself.

People don't dislike things because of 'reasons', they dislike things and find reasons afterwards. The idea that all comments should be taken literally is an issue because people can be poor at communicating.

I think talking about art is always talking about yourself. If you say you like a band or you don't like a band, you're inherently talking about yourself as much as you're talking about that band. I don't like plenty of bands that other people do like, and I like bands that other people don't. It goes beyond objective quality and into issues of taste and genre and style. You may hate a work as a child, but then as an adult having seen other things that build up to that style, you suddenly find an appreciation of it.

But I agree, people can be poor at communicating.

Which is why trying to analyze a film and say that it is objectively good or bad is really hard. And we have to tread lightly and respect each others' takes.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

Zaphod42 posted:

No I think its almost the other way around, I think the MoS trailers, and especially BvS trailers, almost primed people to think the films would be more grimdark.

disagree with mos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wArmHSPIvlQ

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: MoS The Movie is absolutely inferior to MoS Trailer 3, which is a perfect 2 minute Superman film.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Yeah that's fair, its more BvS. MoS trailers were pretty positive.

I also like MOS a lot more than BvS personally. But like I said all these issues are really complicated.

Like as much as some people said what they didn't like was it being "too grimdark" that could be trying to be multiple things at once. If something approaches what you want, the differences stand out more. If its a wholly different thing, you avoid that uncanny valley effect.

Also, Nolan's films were almost a direct reaction to the dislike of Batman Forever and Batman & Superman. After those were super cartoony and campy, people wanted a serious take. So Nolan gives it to them and its taken as a breath of fresh air. Then Snyder's films come along and they're after that, and also trying to be a lot of things, the whole DCEU, so people had different takes.

If Snyder's films had come out before Nolan's, you would have heard completely different commentary. Audiences are fickle but people also change and get influenced. And I'm no movie scholar so I'm probably not even fully explaining my point here very well but :v: hopefully you take my meaning.

Spacebump
Dec 24, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations

Its Chocolate posted:

what if the excessiveness of the post-credit scenes is satire on Marvel

I appreciate they didn't put the scenes in the credits. Those aren't as bad at home but I hate waiting for post credits scenes in theaters.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

Zaphod42 posted:

If Snyder's films had come out before Nolan's, you would have heard completely different commentary. Audiences are fickle but people also change and get influenced. And I'm no movie scholar so I'm probably not even fully explaining my point here very well but :v: hopefully you take my meaning.

i do agree that timing played a part in how MoS was received, but I also think Snyder directing it made it a ripe target for criticism since it was coming on the heels of Sucker Punch (and of course people were already criticizing Watchmen and 300 by then). Snyder himself knows he's a divisive filmmaker and welcomes that mantle so I don't think it should have come as any surprise in retrospect.

runaway dog
Dec 11, 2005

I rarely go into the field, motherfucker.
The brunch joke was the worst, like that joke had been beaten to death already by time WJL came out, I remember expecting a joke about the word moist.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Zaphod42 posted:

I think talking about art is always talking about yourself. If you say you like a band or you don't like a band, you're inherently talking about yourself as much as you're talking about that band. I don't like plenty of bands that other people do like, and I like bands that other people don't. It goes beyond objective quality and into issues of taste and genre and style. You may hate a work as a child, but then as an adult having seen other things that build up to that style, you suddenly find an appreciation of it.

But I agree, people can be poor at communicating.

Which is why trying to analyze a film and say that it is objectively good or bad is really hard. And we have to tread lightly and respect each others' takes.

The point is that these are just jumping off points and one must return back to the text. If someone says they don't like Man of Steel because grim-dark Superman doesn't care enough about the lives of people being lost in the Metropolis brawl, directed by a racist and sexist objectivist, how would one engage in conversation with that?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

KVeezy3 posted:

I also think it's his best film. You also wrote that the film could be described as 'blunt', which I think is apt. The idea that the film is muddled in its messaging is mostly rooted in its serious commitment to the harrowing subject matter. It's just not really addressed in our culture, never-mind in what should be a schlocky genre action film.

You might be giving me too much credit here; I said it was "blunted", like a weapon made safe for practicing with. I think Sucker Punch as presented still has a clear message, but it expects the viewer to do a lot of the follow-through themselves to get there -- which is all well and good, but the extended cut (and even moreso the unreleased / partially unfilmed director's cut & original ending that Snyder has mentioned once or twice) do (and would presumably have) made it a lot less ambivalent, which would have been more to my taste.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

I’ve never seen someone use grim dark positively.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

KVeezy3 posted:

The point is that these are just jumping off points and one must return back to the text. If someone says they don't like Man of Steel because grim-dark Superman doesn't care enough about the lives of people being lost in the Metropolis brawl, directed by a racist and sexist objectivist, how would one engage in conversation with that?

Yeah sure, they're definitely just jumping off points. But like I said, a lot of this is just quotes from people's takes on twitter, its not a conversation. Just pointing at that and going "wrong!" is pretty silly. If you got to have a conversation with them I imagine they would explain their take more.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to create such an extreme strawman example, but obviously you would ask them why they think that and you would give your own examples to the contrary, as we have been doing in this thread about many other aspects of the films :rolleyes: Or you would ignore them as a troll.

CelticPredator posted:

I’ve never seen someone use grim dark positively.

As cited earlier, warhammer fans lean into it.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

The other one you get a lot is people saying he thinks Rorschach was the good guy and therfore he, Zack, is morally bankrupt.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

First off the top, Zaph thank you so much for coming to this thread.

I genuinely have loved reading your posts, especially after that one idiot. It's extremely nice to have someone genuinely asking questions and wanting to understand stuff even if they disagree with some of the things that I like- or we agree on more than we think. I haven't gotten to interact with you much but I wanted you to know that. You're fantastic.

Xenomrph posted:

I’ve got a question about Darkseid and Steppenwolf.

Are there Amazons and Atlanteans elsewhere in the universe? Or are they specific to Earth? Steppenwolf seems to recognize them, which means either he’s been to earth before, or he’s faced them elsewhere in the universe.

When Darkseid first came to earth and lit the ground up with runes, did he know he’d just found the Anti-Life Equation? Because Steppenwolf seeing the runes seems to be what clued him in.

I ask because if that’s the case, it seems like one of them might be a little slow on the uptake.

So Darkseid found the runes, knew what he was looking at, fought Amazons and Atlanteans, and then lost.
Then Steppenwolf shows up, sees Amazons and Atlanteans, and should have instantly known the Anti-Life Equation was there because they’re the ones who kicked Darkseid’s rear end the first time he found the Equation.

So either:
Darkseid didn’t know what the runes meant when he first saw them (but Steppenwolf somehow did)
Steppenwolf didn’t know A&As were present at the first battle (but he knows what they are when he sees them).

Also who was the person to Darkseid’s left? Not Desaad, the one with the pike. Are they a comic character, or just a random lieutenant or something?


So they've explained who Granny Goodness is, but to answer your further question on her- Granny Goodness is one of the most brutal and evil of Darkseid's rulers.

She is the Slave Master, the warrior maker. She takes people and breaks their will to put them into service for Darkseid. In the Superman the Animated Series, she's the one who captured and broke Superman himself.

She is a despicable, vicious, cruel individual that embodies the worst aspects of Apokalips and Darkseid's rule.



For Darkseid and company in general, this is something the movie flat out confirms but only in dialogue and its SUPER easy to miss. They are not from this universe. The Amazons state this out right and Darkseid mentions it obliquely.

Fourth World is another plane of existence and Darkseid and pals have to travel to the material universe to gently caress with us. But because its unrooted from the universe, they're not just attacking *one* place. The Amazons state outright that Darkseid comes from Another Universe, and Darkseid mentions that his plans involve subjugating the entire Multiverse.

So you can infer from there that Darkseid is invading multiple universes, all at the same time. He has more than likely encountered multiple Earths, multiple versions of the Amazons and Old Gods and such. So if he did know that the Anti Life equation was on *an* Earth, he wouldn't have known specifically which one, especially in the way they had to flee the planet.

And I think its implied that when he found the equation, it wasn't quite right. It was unfinished still- no Omega symbol. Steppenwolf is the one who uncovers that the entire equation is here, on this planet.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Good for warhammer fans.

It’s still an insult for movies though. You never see someone come out of like, Schindler’s list and say wow that was great and so grimdark

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

Zaphod42 posted:

As cited earlier, warhammer fans lean into it.

it's also where the term comes from so it makes sense that fans of warhammer own it

Ouhei
Oct 23, 2008

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I am not digging on you specifically, but the attitude that the time you spent with the work is wasted because it won't lead to future cape poo poo is a bit unhealthy, imo.

Others have pointed it out, but I'm not saying my time was wasted. I'm saying that a lot of what the movie does (some of them being things Snyder explicitly added for this version) are wasted because this continuity will never revisit them.

I enjoyed my time with the film and I'm glad I watched it. I can see where a tightened up version of this movie could be released and worked off of for movies to come. The plot is still kind of a mess and rushed even at 4 hours though.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

MacheteZombie posted:

it's also where the term comes from so it makes sense that fans of warhammer own it

That’s interesting.

When was the first time it was used for movies?

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


40K is the literally the origin of the term grimdark.

"IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR,” begins every Warhammer book ever.

I'd appreciate if people stopped being pedantic about what the words grim and dark meant, I think it's enough to explain that the outlook of the films is not that, but the subject matter is. Steppenwolf is literally Psycho Goreman, which is basically a chaos space marine--cartoonishly evil and destructive on an unspeakable (and ~~!!!totally awesome!!!~~) scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4tizc0IAVQ

And you know, people also complain that Snyder movies aren't funny, but they're really part of the Christopher Nolan wave of constant dry humor. Like if you didn't think DeSaad nearly making Steppenwolf cry wasn't funny you're a little bit dead inside.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Burkion posted:

First off the top, Zaph thank you so much for coming to this thread.

I genuinely have loved reading your posts, especially after that one idiot. It's extremely nice to have someone genuinely asking questions and wanting to understand stuff even if they disagree with some of the things that I like- or we agree on more than we think. I haven't gotten to interact with you much but I wanted you to know that. You're fantastic.

Thanks dude :shobon:

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

CelticPredator posted:

That’s interesting.

When was the first time it was used for movies?

honestly couldn't tell ya, however some googling led me to the term hopepunk which i am so loving using to describe zack's dceu output from now on.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

CelticPredator posted:

Good for warhammer fans.

It’s still an insult for movies though. You never see someone come out of like, Schindler’s list and say wow that was great and so grimdark

It doesn't really apply to Schindler's List though. That's just horrific and tragic.

It would apply much more to something like the Doom movie, or Hardcore Harry. HH isn't quite grimdark in tone though, its almost slapstick violence. Dredd is grimdark for sure, and in a good way! :) Dredd is intentionally grimdark, becuase its trying to do 2000AD justice. 2000AD is basically the quintessential grimdark. That pulpy fiction.

Sin City is grimdark for SURE. Intentionally dark and grimy and just a really seedy world with lots of corruption and death.

Escape from NY, and David Lynch's Dune, are other films I would consider to be "grimdark" if you are dying to find things to fit that term to.

E: THE CROW! That movie is so grimdark!

Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Mar 22, 2021

smug n stuff
Jul 21, 2016

A Hobbit's Adventure

CelticPredator posted:

That’s interesting.

When was the first time it was used for movies?

The first time it was used on the Something Awful Forums (e: on CD) (at least what I could find using ye olde search function), was in the trailer thread in 2012:

Deakul posted:

Man of Steel looks fantastic.

I love the direction that they're going with it.
Need more grimdark super hero movies.

Do a grimdark The Tick next.

smug n stuff fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 22, 2021

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

"Hopepunk" as a term's been around a while and it's never described anything good

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant
It took a few days, but the hot takes are here, mother!

GAZE INTO THE ANTILIFE

Justice League’s Snyder Cut saga reminds us which fans’ voices get heard
The HBO Max release of the fabled “Snyder Cut” happened thanks to a mix of entitlement, harassment, and privilege.

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.

RBA Starblade posted:

"Hopepunk" as a term's been around a while and it's never described anything good

I saw someone describe Ted Lasso as hopepunk and it put me off ever wanting to watch it (I'm sure it's good)

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo
I think a big part of the difference in how Nolan and Snyder's films were received is in big part due to peoples existing notions of Batman and Superman.

"Grimdark", whatever that means, suits Batman more than Superman in a lot of peoples heads.

You saw this a lot when MoS came out, people (including on these forums) saying "this works for batman, not superman".

I get tickled by this because while MoS is basically the same film structurally as Batman Begins, BB is itself the same as Superman '78, so it's come full circle really. Nolan gave interviews at the time stating he took direct inspiration from Dick Donner even.

So I guess grimdark means colour palette and "tone", however that is interpreted, by each viewer individually I guess.

smug n stuff
Jul 21, 2016

A Hobbit's Adventure
In 2011 on the forums Grimdark was used a lot, in what appears to be a value-neutral sense, to talk about stuff going on in Homestuck, lmfao

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

RBA Starblade posted:

"Hopepunk" as a term's been around a while and it's never described anything good

look i like hope and i like punk, what could be so bad about their powers combined

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

smug n stuff posted:

In 2011 on the forums Grimdark was used a lot, in what appears to be a value-neutral sense, to talk about stuff going on in Homestuck, lmfao

lol

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

RBA Starblade posted:

"Hopepunk" as a term's been around a while and it's never described anything good
Steven Universe and Nu She-Ra were both described as HopePunk and it was fuckin duuuuuuuumbb

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

FilthyImp posted:

Steven Universe and Nu She-Ra were both described as HopePunk and it was fuckin duuuuuuuumbb

Soypunk

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah sure, they're definitely just jumping off points. But like I said, a lot of this is just quotes from people's takes on twitter, its not a conversation. Just pointing at that and going "wrong!" is pretty silly. If you got to have a conversation with them I imagine they would explain their take more.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to create such an extreme strawman example, but obviously you would ask them why they think that and you would give your own examples to the contrary, as we have been doing in this thread about many other aspects of the films :rolleyes: Or you would ignore them as a troll.


As cited earlier, warhammer fans lean into it.

The example I gave isn't an extreme strawman, and was quite common when the Man of Steel thread was in its prime. Posters pushing back on those kind of empty readings are a big reason why CineD has this reputation as being smug elitists about 'empty' popcorn films. And posters still routinely drive by, completely bewildered that people actually like Snyder's interpretations of these characters and worlds.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Granny Goodness is a top-tier Kirby name, right up there with Glorious Godfrey, Dum Dum Dugan, and Mister Miracle.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


i have never heard the term hopepunk until now and I already despise it

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Grimdude
Sep 25, 2006

It was a shame how he carried on
I just saw Parks and Rec described as "hopepunk" and goddamn does that fit. That last season in particular made me want to barf.

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