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Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

It really sticks in my craw that Joan "takes credit" for some of Peggy's success. That's really not how I see it, AT ALL. Joan was EXTREMELY hostile to Peggy doing copywriting work in season 1, and Joan was also the first person in the series to suggest that Peggy is getting ahead by sleeping with Don. And most of Joan's advice to Peggy involved trying to make Peggy into Joan's image, which is simply not a good idea at all. Peggy can't be Joan if she put all her effort into trying for a thousand years. Peggy, by necessity, has been charting her own course.

I mean, sure, she helped here and there, like when she told Peggy what to do when Betty and the kids showed up for portraits and Peggy believed Don was out with his mistress, but I think Peggy would have ended up a copywriter and ended up doing just as well if Joan didn't work at Sterling Cooper at all.

It's interesting to see how good Cooper is at managing relationships. He subscribes to the sociopathic philosophy of Ayn Rand, but he's still so deft at getting along with other people. The way he pushes Don and Roger to reconcile, his swift and sincere apology to Don for getting his hopes up, the way he looks out for Horace Cook, Sr. a few episodes ago. He's a real elder statesman. He's also not actually "completely self-interested" as he claims to Don in season 1. He's MOSTLY self-interested, but in the scene where Roger's name is left off the reorganization chart, he sounds just like a parent who is upset that their child has been demoted from a starter to a benchwarmer on their sports team. He's ruthless in business, but he holds Roger, his son surrogate, in genuine affection.


Jerusalem posted:

Yes, before this touching and important moment between the two women could happen, Lois literally ran over the foot of the Agency's new Chief Operating Officer with a goddamn Ride-On Lawnmower. It is the most shocking and, yes, absolutely goddamn hilarious moment of the show since Roger suddenly projectile vomited in front of the GOP in season 1. Just an absolutely out of nowhere moment that was nevertheless meticulously built to across the entire episode. It was the last thing I expected to see and yet somehow felt entirely inevitable the moment it happened. It's... it's an utterly stunning moment in a show full of fantastic moments. Oh my God.

This is perhaps my favorite quality of the show. It repeatedly pulls off surprises that make perfect sense in retrospect. It's quite a feat, and it makes the material feel more significant, because that's how real life is.

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JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.
Mad Men, on the whole, just so staid. It's a show where nobody's whacking anybody else over a bad deal, the stakes are rarely higher than "Can they land the big account" and the most dramatic scenes typically involve a two or three people having a conversation in a place we've seen a thousand times before. So when the entire office suddenly gets sprayed with blood and viscera out of nowhere, from the most unlikely source imaginable, it's a shock to the system...and when you think about it, yep, all the pieces were there and it all fell into place pretty naturally.

I love Roger's "Somewhere in this business, this has happened before" reaction. I think even if he wasn't personally delighted by Guy's misfortune, he'd be as equally flip about the whole situation. It wasn't HIS foot, after all!

Nice bit of juxtaposition with Greg, the trained doctor, failing to land the position he's been working towards his whole life, while a day later Joan demonstrates that she can turn into a field medic at the drop of a hat.

sure okay
Apr 7, 2006





The foot scene is one that cemented this show in my mind as one of the funniest shows on television, period. I had the same realization as you - it was both a complete surprise and completely telegraphed. It could have ONLY happened to Guy.

Devorum
Jul 30, 2005

JethroMcB posted:


Nice bit of juxtaposition with Greg, the trained doctor, failing to land the position he's been working towards his whole life, while a day later Joan demonstrates that she can turn into a field medic at the drop of a hat.

I mean, she didn't attempt direct pressure before applying the tourniquet, or put the tourniquet in the correct spot (double-bone sections of limbs are typically avoided, as the bones can prevent the tourniquet from working and cause unnecessary pain. It's also too close to the ankle...nearly on top of it. Best placement would have been just above the knee)...but it's the thought that counts.

I always love watching people apply tourniquets on TV and in films.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost
I don't know if it's just "how management worked" back then or if they're particularly callous, but I just can't believe how incredibly lovely the London office bosses were. People shouldn't be surprised by a visit out of the middle of nowhere and certainly not during a national holiday. Outside of being incredibly lovely, you aren't going to get a full view of things - many folks are going to be out, clients are going to be out and so on. Given how long they've clearly been planning (given Guy's preparation), it was all likely done on purpose to gently caress with everyone and inject chaos into the situation rather than do a legitimate evaluation.

Then you have the fact that no one at SC seems to know where they stand, least of all Lane. How is it that you can manage people and not let them know from time to time how they are doing, what they're doing well, what they need to work on and so on? The fact that Lane doesn't know if he's being fired or promoted is really unacceptable. Also, the fact that he was reminded to put his glasses away before they walked into his office appears to be a subtle foreshadowing as to how upper management views physical disabilities.

Then the shitshow with the surprise reorg and excluding Roger, holy poo poo. Did they think he would just slink away in shame and never come back?

And then of course we have the replacement of Guy because someone missing a foot can't golf and can't walk (which is bullshit, you can) but nope, he's done and his book smarts don't mean poo poo compared to having the right looks, social class and no disabilities. Nothing like getting fired because of something a coworker did to you. I'd have to imagine there would be some sort of lawsuit or severance or something but since he's no longer their little prince, I'm sure they'll fight that tooth and nail. I'm also certain that his disability would lose him friends and social standing as well.

Good times!

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









JethroMcB posted:

Mad Men, on the whole, just so staid. It's a show where nobody's whacking anybody else over a bad deal, the stakes are rarely higher than "Can they land the big account" and the most dramatic scenes typically involve a two or three people having a conversation in a place we've seen a thousand times before. So when the entire office suddenly gets sprayed with blood and viscera out of nowhere, from the most unlikely source imaginable, it's a shock to the system...and when you think about it, yep, all the pieces were there and it all fell into place pretty naturally.

Viscera are entrails, which would make this a different kind of scene again

MightyJoe36
Dec 29, 2013

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:
Wait until you see how they treat the reporter who interviews Don after they start their own agency.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Yoshi Wins posted:

It's interesting to see how good Cooper is at managing relationships. He subscribes to the sociopathic philosophy of Ayn Rand, but he's still so deft at getting along with other people. The way he pushes Don and Roger to reconcile, his swift and sincere apology to Don for getting his hopes up, the way he looks out for Horace Cook, Sr. a few episodes ago. He's a real elder statesman. He's also not actually "completely self-interested" as he claims to Don in season 1. He's MOSTLY self-interested, but in the scene where Roger's name is left off the reorganization chart, he sounds just like a parent who is upset that their child has been demoted from a starter to a benchwarmer on their sports team. He's ruthless in business, but he holds Roger, his son surrogate, in genuine affection

For all his hyper capitalist Any Rand stuff, he seems to intrinsically understand the necessity of long term thinking both in his personal relationships and in a business that can live or die by a single quarter (losing big clients). Most libertarian thinking in general makes a lot of assumptions that everything will just work to the benefit of the individual but Cooper has seen the depression and the war as proof that it doesn't.

Regarding Roger, I wonder if it's the combination of both seeing Roger as a successor, the fact the company is a 30 year brand known as "Sterling Cooper" and Roger's connection to Lucky Strike. Season 1 the entire point of Don being made partner was brought about because of Roger's heart attack. Harry even mentions they waited so long out of greed until it was a necessity.

It's not an exaggeration that almost every time Cooper speaks he's saying more then one thing with his words. So many of his lines throughout the series always have both the immediate meaning, and a deeper meaning. When he walked into the room during Harry's baby shower, this single line


could mean
- he's old and doddering and doesn't know what's going on
- he's out of touch with the staff and doesn't really know who anyone is but wants to give well wishes
- he's aware of Harry's celebration but didn't bother to check what it was for
- he knows exactly what is going on and does that to gently caress with them to keep them on their toes

As a viewer, you can assume its the last one based on how Cooper is in general, but for all the people in that room, any assumption would be risky given that it's their top boss and they need to avoid insulting him or embarrassing themselves. His character is a master of saying something that will only mean what he wants when he decides what will benefit him.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001


Solkanar512 posted:

I don't know if it's just "how management worked" back then or if they're particularly callous, but I just can't believe how incredibly lovely the London office bosses were. People shouldn't be surprised by a visit out of the middle of nowhere and certainly not during a national holiday. Outside of being incredibly lovely, you aren't going to get a full view of things - many folks are going to be out, clients are going to be out and so on. Given how long they've clearly been planning (given Guy's preparation), it was all likely done on purpose to gently caress with everyone and inject chaos into the situation rather than do a legitimate evaluation.

Then you have the fact that no one at SC seems to know where they stand, least of all Lane. How is it that you can manage people and not let them know from time to time how they are doing, what they're doing well, what they need to work on and so on? The fact that Lane doesn't know if he's being fired or promoted is really unacceptable. Also, the fact that he was reminded to put his glasses away before they walked into his office appears to be a subtle foreshadowing as to how upper management views physical disabilities.

Then the shitshow with the surprise reorg and excluding Roger, holy poo poo. Did they think he would just slink away in shame and never come back?

And then of course we have the replacement of Guy because someone missing a foot can't golf and can't walk (which is bullshit, you can) but nope, he's done and his book smarts don't mean poo poo compared to having the right looks, social class and no disabilities. Nothing like getting fired because of something a coworker did to you. I'd have to imagine there would be some sort of lawsuit or severance or something but since he's no longer their little prince, I'm sure they'll fight that tooth and nail. I'm also certain that his disability would lose him friends and social standing as well.

Good times!

I just took it as the British being incredibly British about business

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


I like to watch a different one of the four peeps in the splashing everything this gif reloads. Paul is pretty great but so is glasses man

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

pentyne posted:

As a viewer, you can assume its the last one based on how Cooper is in general, but for all the people in that room, any assumption would be risky given that it's their top boss and they need to avoid insulting him or embarrassing themselves. His character is a master of saying something that will only mean what he wants when he decides what will benefit him.

I just rewatched the scene when Don wants to fire Pete in S1, that's peak Cooper. Manhattan is like fine time-piece, etc, etc, you can't find writing like that anywhere else.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

Shageletic posted:

I like to watch a different one of the four peeps in the splashing everything this gif reloads. Paul is pretty great but so is glasses man

It is good to call him glasses man, because I think this is his only episode, or maybe he has a line in another. So strange to see him in the most famous gif of the show, your mind starts thinking Ken is in there too or something.

Same thing with Guy. When you first see him, you think this is going to be a new character on the show for the rest of the season, or the series. And then...poof. He's never back.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Sash! posted:

I just took it as the British being incredibly British about business

Britain didn't have the same epic levels of racism America had so they doubled down on class discrimination.

The elite boarding schools the rich sent their children to basically set your future in stone, which is why Lane is surprised no one asked him where he went to school.

He wasn't even referring to the Oxbrigde system he meant their k-12 private school institutions.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

pentyne posted:

Britain didn't have the same epic levels of racism America had so they doubled down on class discrimination.


I'd be willing to bet there's quite a few Indians,Chinese, Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans, and Africans who would disagree.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

GoutPatrol posted:

It is good to call him glasses man, because I think this is his only episode, or maybe he has a line in another. So strange to see him in the most famous gif of the show, your mind starts thinking Ken is in there too or something.

Same thing with Guy. When you first see him, you think this is going to be a new character on the show for the rest of the season, or the series. And then...poof. He's never back.


Glasses Man is Dale. He's never important to a story, but he's around a bit in season 2 (he's the one in S2:E1 that speculates that Don knocked Peggy up), and he comes in as a freelancer in season 5 when they're trying to land Jaguar.


Solkanar512 posted:

Also, the fact that he was reminded to put his glasses away before they walked into his office appears to be a subtle foreshadowing as to how upper management views physical disabilities.

Ooh, never thought of it that way before. Interesting.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Gaius Marius posted:

I'd be willing to bet there's quite a few Indians,Chinese, Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans, and Africans who would disagree.

The Irish too.

The point was with actual titled nobility the way discrimination shook out it became all about wealth, status, and upbringing in a way America never quite achieved in the 60s. Appearance and standards were everything.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001


When I first learned about the whole school tie thing, I was blown away that anyone could give a crap about that.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!






Gaius Marius posted:

I'd be willing to bet there's quite a few Indians,Chinese, Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans, and Africans who would disagree.

Racism in the US is its own unique kind of horrible and in the 60s was perceptibly more raw than the racism people ran into in the homelands of former imperial powers; Paul Robeson and others commented on this at the time. It’s not that British people were any less racist, but race is THE social issue in America in a way it wasn’t in other countries.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Sash! posted:

When I first learned about the whole school tie thing, I was blown away that anyone could give a crap about that.

You know how in Harry Potter all the stuff about the school houses, uniforms, points, competing against each other for awards, prefects, etc?

Yeah, that's actually how British boarding schools really operate.

Goofballs
Jun 2, 2011



Gaius Marius posted:

I'd be willing to bet there's quite a few Indians,Chinese, Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans, and Africans who would disagree.

No doubt but a lot of the time with the brits it was just business more than visceral hatred. Not that there wasn't a lot of that, referring to the Irish as white apes etc etc. That sort of attitude was more useful to instil in the soldiers and lackeys. Their ruling class was more often extremely cold and rational about exploiting ethnic and religious differences. They weren't ignorant, quite the opposite. Its just they didn't really value human life. White working people either but you can't genocide the people at home and have a replacement rate for the armies.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression from Mad Men. I guess to tie it back in I very much doubt the English are unaware of the effect they are having. It is the effect they want to have. I'd guess the top guys are playing bad cop for the sake of good cop Guy.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I'm already a gigantic fan of Jared Harris but he's seriously so loving great in this episode in particular. The sheer relief and happiness Lane feels when they tell him how impressed they are with him is both touching and utterly pathetic, he LIVES for these people's approval and his horrified (and sadly belated) realization that they don't give the slightest poo poo about him beyond his functional use as a tool to make them money is so sad. His line about Tom Sawyer is so great, he basically kept himself a step away from all the people at Sterling Cooper despite living there for months because his every action was designed towards pleasing PPL's head office, and what is the end result of that? PPL wants to send him off to Bombay while Guy reaps the benefits, and nobody at Sterling Cooper is gonna miss him because he's just the rear end in a top hat who obsesses about the price of paper clips.

Then suddenly he's given a second chance, he is rescued from his fate by the most unlikely situation possible. It's such a late awakening, and I can't wait to see how he is going to operate now that he knows how he really stands with everybody in his professional life.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

Harris is awesome. There's a scene later in the series that I watch on youtube like once a month because his acting is so phenomenal. It's when Don fires him for embezzlement. Hamm is also great in that scene, but Harris is amazing.

His wife was upset about living near the UN building because "there are plenty of Africans". Just imagine how she'd feel about living in a Bombay.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Jerusalem posted:

I'm already a gigantic fan of Jared Harris but he's seriously so loving great in this episode in particular. The sheer relief and happiness Lane feels when they tell him how impressed they are with him is both touching and utterly pathetic, he LIVES for these people's approval and his horrified (and sadly belated) realization that they don't give the slightest poo poo about him beyond his functional use as a tool to make them money is so sad. His line about Tom Sawyer is so great, he basically kept himself a step away from all the people at Sterling Cooper despite living there for months because his every action was designed towards pleasing PPL's head office, and what is the end result of that? PPL wants to send him off to Bombay while Guy reaps the benefits, and nobody at Sterling Cooper is gonna miss him because he's just the rear end in a top hat who obsesses about the price of paper clips.

Then suddenly he's given a second chance, he is rescued from his fate by the most unlikely situation possible. It's such a late awakening, and I can't wait to see how he is going to operate now that he knows how he really stands with everybody in his professional life.

There is much Harris goodness in your future

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Yoshi Wins posted:

Harris is awesome. There's a scene later in the series that I watch on youtube like once a month because his acting is so phenomenal. It's when Don fires him for embezzlement. Hamm is also great in that scene, but Harris is amazing.

His wife was upset about living near the UN building because "there are plenty of Africans". Just imagine how she'd feel about living in a Bombay.

there are some recent shitposts in the cined gen chat thread about his scene with Peter where they fight set to classic fighting game music, it's awesome go check it out. Also Jerusalem if you're reading this from the future, go look em up on YouTube or ask for links. by the time you read this I'll have forgotten about them and I can go crack myself up all over again

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Yoshi Wins posted:

Harris is awesome.

sebmojo posted:

There is much Harris goodness in your future

I agree, Joan Harris is a great character on the show Mad Men :imunfunny:

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.

Yoshi Wins posted:

Harris is awesome. There's a scene later in the series that I watch on youtube like once a month because his acting is so phenomenal. It's when Don fires him for embezzlement. Hamm is also great in that scene, but Harris is amazing.

Ugh, I just watched the episode today where he hatches his scheme, and it's painful to watch him set these gears into motion. Doubly so because it's a situation where, if he were capable of swallowing his pride and confiding in the partners, I want to believe they'd float him the money he needs. I mean, Don writes a check for $6,000 in the episode without a second thought while scouting the Jaguar dealership. Even as a bluff, I don't think Don Draper writes a check he can't cash.

Also, the score during the scene where he uses the art department's supplies and light box to forge the check is SO GOOD. The show has solid music throughout, but this is one of the few times it's really jumped out at me - probably because it's carrying a heavy load during one of the few dialogue-free scenes.

(Same episode has The Negron Complex, which will never stop being funny.)


sebmojo posted:

Viscera are entrails, which would make this a different kind of scene again

Listen I was operating under the assumption that British people have a different physiology

JethroMcB fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Mar 20, 2021

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

JethroMcB posted:

Ugh, I just watched the episode today where he hatches his scheme, and it's painful to watch him set these gears into motion. Doubly so because it's a situation where, if he were capable of swallowing his pride and confiding in the partners, I want to believe they'd float him the money he needs. I mean, Don writes a check for $6,000 in the episode without a second thought while scouting the Jaguar dealership. Even as a bluff, I don't think Don Draper writes a check he can't cash.


Don literally just covers the money that Lane embezzled instead of making him pay it back. That's how freely Don was willing to help him out financially if he had just asked.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
  • guy set up to be the big villain of the arc gets unexpectedly and humourously incapacitated in the episode he's introduced
  • an innocuous seemingly-one-off background character suddenly reveals their true identity to the main character at the end of the episode
  • nebbish midboss, previously a hindrance to the main character, becomes disillusioned and questions his loyalty
  • over the top blood and gore
  • weird sex poo poo involving octopi

Am I describing an anime, or Mad Men?

Blood Nightmaster
Sep 6, 2011

“また遊んであげるわ!”

The Klowner posted:

there are some recent shitposts in the cined gen chat thread about his scene with Peter where they fight set to classic fighting game music, it's awesome go check it out. Also Jerusalem if you're reading this from the future, go look em up on YouTube or ask for links. by the time you read this I'll have forgotten about them and I can go crack myself up all over again

I came here just to post a link to that for anyone else who can see it because it's the best thing

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Blood Nightmaster posted:

I came here just to post a link to that for anyone else who can see it because it's the best thing


Is that the right link? I don't see anything. although it might be me that's loving up

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Goofballs posted:

No doubt but a lot of the time with the brits it was just business more than visceral hatred. Not that there wasn't a lot of that, referring to the Irish as white apes etc etc. That sort of attitude was more useful to instil in the soldiers and lackeys. Their ruling class was more often extremely cold and rational about exploiting ethnic and religious differences. They weren't ignorant, quite the opposite. Its just they didn't really value human life. White working people either but you can't genocide the people at home and have a replacement rate for the armies.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression from Mad Men. I guess to tie it back in I very much doubt the English are unaware of the effect they are having. It is the effect they want to have. I'd guess the top guys are playing bad cop for the sake of good cop Guy.

Last cap on this Brit emphasis on racial classifications and hierarchy is still loving things up from Kenya to Myanmar. They completely bought into a white supremacist template for colonialization, with whites on top, whatever ethnic group they wanted as middle managers in the middle, and some kind of darker raced people as unworthy and therefore employable as cheap or free labor.

It's astonishing how common and widely used this pattern of exploitation was used in their colonies

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

The Klowner posted:

[list]

[*] an innocuous seemingly-one-off background character suddenly reveals their true identity to the main character at the end of the episode


Who this

Devorum
Jul 30, 2005


Connie, I'm assuming.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.


This is a great episode even setting aside the lawnmower bits. The scene between Joan and Don is just super tender, you can tell they have a deep personal respect for eachother even beyond their professional respect.

Also probably my favorite line in the entire series, though there's plenty of bangers left: "He'll never... golf again."

Blood Nightmaster
Sep 6, 2011

“また遊んであげるわ!”

The Klowner posted:

Is that the right link? I don't see anything. although it might be me that's loving up

it's supposed to link directly to a post in the PYF tweets thread. Works for me in browser and app!

You know when I first watched this episode it was really hard for me to follow what the hell was going on and I distinctly remember asking myself "who's this douchebag even is this guy", I see now that the confusion was kind of the point. I'm pretty sure I laughed in shock at the lawnmower bit too, as terrible as it is

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004
Happy national Chip and Dip day, Pete!





...a thing like that

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.


Just got to the Suitcase on my rewatch. Still just an absolutely incredible episode, holy moly.

Also, Roger's threat to Peggy when asking if Don was still in the office was hilarious. "I'm going to count to 3 and start saying some things you really won't like, sweetheart."

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

Beamed posted:

Just got to the Suitcase on my rewatch. Still just an absolutely incredible episode, holy moly.

Also, Roger's threat to Peggy when asking if Don was still in the office was hilarious. "I'm going to count to 3 and start saying some things you really won't like, sweetheart."


There's an abundant intentionality to that episode for sure

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.

aBagorn posted:



...a thing like that

“We went to these people’s house, and they had one. It had sour cream, with these little brown onions in it. It was very good.”

...Yeah, Pete's an alien.

Finished S5 yesterday. This is the point when just about every character has entered fully loathsome mode; Pete especially. He really is a grimy little pimp. Joan's treatment is even more abhorrent than I remember.

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Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013

Tomorrow is also chip and dip day. It's a national holiday, and we got two of them.

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