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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

John Wick of Dogs posted:

Kal-El, Noooo!

How does she know his Kryptonian name? I don't recall if that ever became public knowledge

Zod's YOU ARE NOT ALONE speech.

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Caridean posted:

hilarious coming from you

I actually have a talent for parsing bad writing.

You initially ran into trouble by contrasting “garish” with “drab”, in a post about the aesthetics of the film.

When it was pointed out that calling such as the color choices "garishly drab" is oxymoronic, you immediately pivoted to the subject matter: you now meant that the subject matter is both offensive and boring.

The issue here is, as others have pointed out, you are (perhaps unwittingly) abusing the Oxford Dictionary to vacillate between different meanings of the same word, so that you are effectively claiming the ‘boringness’ is measurable in terms of light levels or something.

It may help to avoid metaphorical speech - like your complaining about reams of gore that aren’t actually in the film but that figuratively represent your visceral feelings.

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000

John Wick of Dogs posted:

Kal-El, Noooo!

How does she know his Kryptonian name? I don't recall if that ever became public knowledge
Bruce probably told her.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Zod's YOU ARE NOT ALONE speech.
Oh yeah. She was probably watching it in her hotel room or something because she doesn’t own a TV. Or maybe she heard people talking about it.

Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Mar 24, 2021

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Zod's YOU ARE NOT ALONE speech.

drat, she was probably flying to Metropolis from Paris, but from WW84 we know she can only fly at about 60 mph.

hiddenriverninja
May 10, 2013

life is locomotion
keep moving
trust that you'll find your way

boy, WW's power of making things invisible would have been super useful against Steppenwolf

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.


Mr. Apollo posted:

Bruce probably told her.
Oh yeah. She was probably watching it in her hotel room or something because she doesn’t own one. Or maybe she heard people talking about it.

She has a phone and a laptop, Zods message was on anything with a screen.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

bushisms.txt posted:

She has a phone and a laptop, Zods message was on anything with a screen.

And probably in Ancient Greek for her!

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Mr. Apollo posted:

Oh yeah. She was probably watching it in her hotel room or something because she doesn’t own a TV. Or maybe she heard people talking about it.

It does seem like the kind of thing that'd get people talking.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

nemesis_hub posted:

The culture war by proxy over Snyder is honestly incredibly weird and the only thing that reminds me of it is the reaction to Lucas and the Prequels. Does anyone have any thoughts or explanations about what’s going on here? Why these two filmmakers?

Just my opinion but:

1) Both Superman and Star Wars are as close as we have to modern mythology. Every single person under the age of 46 grew up with both these properties in their entire lives in a big way. Superman is even older and more venerated than Star Wars, he's the closest thing we have to a modern folk hero. Here is an excerpt from an essay written in 2006, over half a decade before Man of Steel:

https://www.wired.com/2006/06/myth/ posted:

Superman is different because he doesn’t really belong to the writers who’ve created his adventures over the last 68-plus years. He has evolved into a folk hero, a fable, and the public feels like it has a stake in who Superman “really” is. Schwartz quit writing Superman because his bosses were telling him to put in things that he thought were out of character. That was admirable, but really, the specific stories we tell about Superman – the what-happened and what-he-did – don’t matter that much. Superman transcends plot. We retell his tales because we wish he were here, real, to keep us safe.

The simple fact of the matter is that Snyder's take does not posit a Superman that can save everyone (even though he would very much like to) and this has massive consequences. Even in victory there is loss. This directly flies in the face of the folk tale, and so it enraged and bothered them on a level that you generally only see when attacking religious icons.

2) The current zeitgeist is that morality is reflected through consumer choices. For example, watching NASCAR is now coded as an inherently conservative activity. What has happened is that people have extended that to brands. So now certain brands are moral and immoral choices. It doesn't help that the brands themselves have leaned into this and now you have poo poo like Wounded Warrior Coffee or whatever. But anyway, this is the zeitgeist now. So you now have angry people who are ultra-pissed at the movie and the director, who hate his poo poo like a fundie hates Piss Christ, and you have garbo sites like IO9 and AVClub looking for clicks. So what they discovered is that by taking Zack Snyder interviews, pulling selected quotes about The Fountainhead or his (sometimes ill-advised) ideas for more cape poo poo, and then writing an essay about how degenerate he is, they could bring in big-time clicks. And people would never stop clicking on these articles in the same way that evangelicals never tire of hearing their preacher rant on Sundays.

This is a good development for IO9 and AVClub and people who hate Zack Snyder, because these movies are not just Bad Cape poo poo anymore. They are literal vectors for dangerous ideas like Objectivism and Fascism, and so hating them is not just a matter of opinion - it is a moral necessity.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

smug n stuff posted:

I don't think this actually looks bad, but it's definitely pretty monochrome


Maybe I've misinterpreted what monochrome was intended to mean but I'm seeing at least 4 colours, even with the explosion washing them out

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant
Sepia tinted does t sound as hoity as monochrome

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

hiddenriverninja posted:

boy, WW's power of making things invisible would have been super useful against Steppenwolf
IMDB Trivia: Wonder Woman is in every scene of Justice League.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

nemesis_hub posted:

So I’m watching this by watching one Part a day as if it’s a tv show and it’s quite fun! It is *insane* how much better this is than the Whedon cut. And I say this as someone who only likes some of Snyder’s movies and was only mildly curious about the Snyder cut, so it’s really not just fanboyism.

The culture war by proxy over Snyder is honestly incredibly weird and the only thing that reminds me of it is the reaction to Lucas and the Prequels. Does anyone have any thoughts or explanations about what’s going on here? Why these two filmmakers?

It used to be that the standard line “it’s just a movie haha it doesn’t mean anything” was what we fought against. Now we have this strange over-correction to that where your pop culture consumption choices just ARE your politics. In both cases the underlying similarity is a resistance to just really *looking* at a movie and interpreting it.

Funnily enough, I made a post about exactly this a while back

McCloud posted:

I thought this was a nuclear hot take, but I cleared it with our resident Snyder/ Star wars Expert Josh04, and he backed me up on this

Zack Snyder is the George Lucas of Comic book movies.

Yes, really, stop laughing.

Putting aside the predictable jokes, they both have a very similar style of making films. They're both visual storytellers and prefer showing over telling, they love to reuse motifs, patterns and scenes to convey ideas, even borrowing from other films for this. They're both interested in myths as they relate to our universal experiences and as they relate to the human condition, and they're both interested in Joseph Campbells monomyth

Like come on, they're both obsessed with, to paraphrase George, rhyming their poetry

https://vimeo.com/189876347
https://youtube.com/watch?v=pWvoFE7W288

What Snyder and Lucas have in common is that they're both auteurs that are interested in making interesting art instead of pandering to their audience. This, in combination with their primary demographic being nerds who are obssessively possessive of these nerd franchises, leads to nerds lashing out when the products they get are different from what they expected.

Lucas Prequel trilogy as an example is a drastically different set of movies from what the audience expected, and so they conjured up this fantasy that Lucas "didn't understand" his own universe, that his films were saved by his wife in the editing, that the films would be improved if they'd skipped ep 1 etc etc.

Snyder faced similar criticisms. The audience wanted traditional fluffy superhero fare and instead got a ponderous set of films that kind of challenge the traditional super hero fantasy and genre staples . Nerds are also notoriously whiny when these characters aren't presented as they "should" be, i e Superman doesn't smile enough, Batman kills, Lukes attempted fratricide etc.

People were also primed to hate Zack due to his earlier works. 300 and Sucker punch drew a lot of criticism from people who took them at face value and missed the satirical elements, and so interpreted the films as bigoted and sexist respectively,

All that together is basically a perfect storm of even otherwise perfectly rational people lose their minds when it comes to these directors, but especially Zack.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
After like 8 years I still don't know what makes people so angry about Snyder.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

After like 8 years I still don't know what makes people so angry about Snyder.

As someone who was angry aboht Snyder for 8 years...

I fuckin don’t know either. I guess buildings. Buildings are so worthless who gives a poo poo about them

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

After like 8 years I still don't know what makes people so angry about Snyder.

I think people hate Snyder fandom more than they hate Snyder, because the fandom tends to look down its nose at people who like similar movies, as if watching Zack Snyder movies makes them intelligentsia.

Also unless whatever Ayn Rand movie he makes is the Starship Troopers version of objectivism, he can definitely go gently caress himself there.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Caridean posted:

I specifically said what I meant by that, you should go back and read it.
I'll have a go.

Caridean posted:

The whole thing is like watching an extended music video set inside the fever dream of a dying psychopath and I hate it.

Caridean posted:

psychopath: Even people who liked Snyder are usually able to admit that he doesn't give a poo poo about anyone in his movies but the central heroic figures. The amount of death and destruction for what's basically a schlocky action adventure film is weird. It's not as bad as some of his previous work but it's still there.

I've no idea what constitutes "giving a poo poo" about people who aren't in the movie, but I would guess you mean that, for example, when General Zod blows up a building the focus is on Superman trying to stop him rather than the people inside the building. This isn't true (Man Of Steel provides a "human's-eye-view" of events via the Daily Planet staff, again for example) so it's probably not what you meant. Help a brother out by clarifying further, and then I can ask when it was decided that schlocky movies shouldn't have any death or destruction in them. Like, is Jaws more schlocky than Sharknado?

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Sodomy Hussein posted:

I think people hate Snyder fandom more than they hate Snyder, because the fandom tends to look down its nose at people who like similar movies, as if watching Zack Snyder movies makes them intelligentsia.

Also unless whatever Ayn Rand movie he makes is the Starship Troopers version of objectivism, he can definitely go gently caress himself there.

They literally call him a sexist, fascist, objectivist bigot. They hate him, specifically

The fact the fans are superior to them is just insult to injury :smug:

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon

Nap Ghost

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

After like 8 years I still don't know what makes people so angry about Snyder.

On one level it’s that he touched sacred cows that people put up there like religion and it didn’t match their interpretation this this blasphemy against gospel discomforts them and on the other hand I think it’s a human trait in a lot of people to bond/gel together at ragging on a target which I feel a lot of current criticism is. Join together in ostracism of someone.

As stated, comic books to some is a mythology akin to religion and these are modern Gods of sort and a lot of hate is stuff is baggage someone brings into it rather than engaging it like a piece of art to understand, study, develop, learn from etc.

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


McCloud posted:

They literally call him a sexist, fascist, objectivist bigot. They hate him, specifically

The fact the fans are superior to them is just insult to injury :smug:

Well he did make 300, by similarly controversial Frank Miller.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Sodomy Hussein posted:

I think people hate Snyder fandom more than they hate Snyder, because the fandom tends to look down its nose at people who like similar movies, as if watching Zack Snyder movies makes them intelligentsia.

Also unless whatever Ayn Rand movie he makes is the Starship Troopers version of objectivism, he can definitely go gently caress himself there.
It's not getting made because Snyder could read the room.

I feel like there is a really interesting quote from Snyder in it though if you want insight into his politics:

quote:

“‘Fountainhead’ right now is on the back burner,” he told the Times. “I don’t know how that movie gets made, at least not right away.” As to why he thinks it’s not happening, Snyder believed the political climate still isn’t right for the feature film. “We need a less divided country and a little more liberal government to make that movie, so people don’t react to it in a certain way.”

I mean not much of a surprise as Snyder openly supported Biden. I think the sense I get from Snyder's work is that there is appeal to him in the idea of great men rising up and enlightening the masses. And there's a poo poo ton of critiques you can give to that. BvS definitely gets into some Randian imagery when you have God show up for a hearing, but it's hard to think of Snyder as an Objectivist or Libertarian when Superman decides to die for those masses his mom warns him he owes nothing to.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

gregday posted:

So the problem is that it happens in lots and lots of other places where it’s not warranted or adds anything, like the football game.

The football sequence is dope, because Snyder posits that spectator sports comprise our modern day superheros, through figures who perform unfathomable feats that audiences watch with awe as they overcome adversity and strive for greatness. It's also one of the few places where black people can embrace the beauty of their physicality and not only not be perceived as threatening to the social order, but be a path to social status and respect. But even within that purportedly meritocratic structure, the success of black athletes, as compared to white athletes, are much more-so attributed to their 'innate' physical gifts than their hard-work and knowledge.

Victor Stone's horrible accident took all of this away from him, which is emphasized by the white couple who are frightened by him walking on the same street at night. And he painfully struggles to let go of this part of himself, as shown by the self-image of him still in his varsity jacket.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Mar 24, 2021

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

This is where the fun begins

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
Frankly, it’s just that Snyder and Lucas are fairly leftist.

Man Of Steel’s Superman punches a nazi and does property damage, endangering a couple people, so it fuckin broke a lot of minds.

As a contrast, the Avengers do collateral damage - canonically killing hundreds of civilians while fighting terrorism - which is okay.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

After like 8 years I still don't know what makes people so angry about Snyder.

The comparison to Lucas is apt, and I think there's also something similar going on with how people reacted to Ridley Scott and Prometheus.

There's something about the way people relate to these, sorta, foundational pillars of nerd culture like Alien or Star Wars or Superman that starts to feel threatened when either the original creator of the work (or even worse, a bigger fan than them) does something that they perceive as taking away their ownership of the material. It's extremely territorial in nature.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Timeless Appeal posted:

It's not getting made because Snyder could read the room.

I feel like there is a really interesting quote from Snyder in it though if you want insight into his politics:


I mean not much of a surprise as Snyder openly supported Biden. I think the sense I get from Snyder's work is that there is appeal to him in the idea of great men rising up and enlightening the masses. And there's a poo poo ton of critiques you can give to that. BvS definitely gets into some Randian imagery when you have God show up for a hearing, but it's hard to think of Snyder as an Objectivist or Libertarian when Superman decides to die for those masses his mom warns him he owes nothing to.

It's also, like, Iron Man 1 and 2 are basically an adaptation of The Fountainhead, but the people Howard Roark refuses to give the building to are (secret) Nationalist Socialists and not Socialists, so nobody gave a gently caress.

Plus there's this entire like, saga, of what happened to the Zack Snyder Justice League, where instead of burning the laptop he stored it on, he polished it up and released it. This story, if presented, would also be an adaptation of The Fountainhead.

You see where I'm going with this?

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Mar 24, 2021

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The comparison to Lucas is apt, and I think there's also something similar going on with how people reacted to Ridley Scott and Prometheus.

There's something about the way people relate to these, sorta, foundational pillars of nerd culture like Alien or Star Wars or Superman that starts to feel threatened when either the original creator of the work (or even worse, a bigger fan than them) does something that they perceive as taking away their ownership of the material. It's extremely territorial in nature.

Ridley, George, and Zack are definitely on the Cined Mt. Rushmore.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS
Nerd media criticism is pathologically inconsistent, morally and intellectually.

Like complaints about Leto Joker making edgy sex jokes to batman - where was this when Ledger Joker made them to Jai Courtney and Maggie Gyllenhaal?

MM and Flash don't respect women's agency! But don't mention What-Captain-America-Did, don't even think about it mister!

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Sodomy Hussein posted:

Well he did make 300, by similarly controversial Frank Miller.


McCloud posted:


People were also primed to hate Zack due to his earlier works. 300 and Sucker punch drew a lot of criticism from people who took them at face value and missed the satirical elements, and so interpreted the films as bigoted and sexist respectively,


If 300 is taken at face value, sure, it's easy to see why one would call it xenophobic and bigoted and what not, but it's clearly not meant to be taken at face value.

Can't speak for the graphic novel as I never read it though

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

ruddiger posted:

Ridley, George, and Zack are definitely on the Cined Mt. Rushmore.

To be fair you can see the same phenomenon happen with genuinely lovely, forgettable movies -- take the Ghostbusters remake, for example. It's just that those don't generally spawn much of a fanbase and as such the controversy dies out much quicker.

Miching Mallecho
May 24, 2010

:D



The avengers literally got manhattan torn up and nobody batted an eye at that destruction, but there was that montage of people saying "oh man the avengers are great" on t.v. Screens.

I guess there should've been a montage of civilians saying "man Superman sure saved the world" after Zoe's snapped neck.

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012
Yeah this entire behind the scenes saga about Justice League probably demonstrates what it is that Snyder gets out of the fountainhead. Which means if you're hoping for a starship troopers sendoff you're not gonna get that if it ever gets made but you're also not gonna get much of an objectivist screed because what Zack Snyder personally gets out of the fountainhead is kinda orthogonal to objectivism.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The comparison to Lucas is apt, and I think there's also something similar going on with how people reacted to Ridley Scott and Prometheus.

There's something about the way people relate to these, sorta, foundational pillars of nerd culture like Alien or Star Wars or Superman that starts to feel threatened when either the original creator of the work (or even worse, a bigger fan than them) does something that they perceive as taking away their ownership of the material. It's extremely territorial in nature.

Another two directors who I consider somewhat superficially similar to Snyder et al. are the Wachowskis. I don't remember the Matrix sequels getting quite the level of hate as some of the films mentioned, but there was kind of a similar vibe of nerd frustration about them.

Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Mar 24, 2021

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
insofar as Snyder did anything to invite this hate -- as opposed to just having the misfortune to have laid hands on zombies, Watchmen, and Superman, how dare he -- it's that he really obviously does understand the history of those characters and stories inside and out and displays this knowledge and lore constantly, visually quoting decades' worth of comic book references and so on.

he's a bigger loving nerd than his audience and this very fact brings out something competitive

e: i can't buy that it's his politics either, because, as anyone who's read his interviews should be able to tell, he's a completely bog-standard liberal. his movies have some nods towards the international and systemic nature of the problems the world is facing, and that's a good first step, but it's not like he's some kind of communist auteur, any more than he's a fascist lol. he's almost comically inoffensive, at least relative to the mainstream American baseline

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Mar 24, 2021

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

I just had a revelation. The Knightmare sequences would have naturally ended with Kamandi.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon

Nap Ghost
Ang Lee did great homework for his Hulk movie and that was not well regarded and made fun of. It was a legit film that explored the Hulk and Ang showed he read Hulks history and whatnot but wasn’t given respect and yet is one of the better cape movies.

Its Chocolate
Dec 21, 2019

lol

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Blood Boils posted:

Maybe I've misinterpreted what monochrome was intended to mean but I'm seeing at least 4 colours, even with the explosion washing them out

Monochrome *can* mean black & white, but technically anything where there's only a single chroma counts. So like, gameboy is puke green / black but its still monochrome, because there's only a single color with varying luminance, not multiple colors.

Virtual boy is monochrome red. Nightvision cameras are monochrome green.

Also, orange and brown are technically the same color.

So yeah, this is you misinterpreting Monochrome == Black & white which isn't true, its only one example.

It literally means "One Color" in Latin. (Not "no color")

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Timeless Appeal posted:

BvS definitely gets into some Randian imagery when you have God show up for a hearing, but it's hard to think of Snyder as an Objectivist or Libertarian when Superman decides to die for those masses his mom warns him he owes nothing to.
Plus from the beginning his Superman is all about helping others. The whole reason he's an ascetic drifter in Man Of Steel is that he can't avoid using his powers to help people.

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Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

Gatts posted:

Ang Lee did great homework for his Hulk movie and that was not well regarded and made fun of. It was a legit film that explored the Hulk and Ang showed he read Hulks history and whatnot but wasn’t given respect and yet is one of the better cape movies.

Hulk was BvS before BvS.

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