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Arkage posted:Finished rewatching Man of Steel and it still registers as just "ok." Having superman at least TRY to lead Zod away from the city, or at least acknowledge poo poo is getting hosed up and that is bad, would've gone a long way towards making the end fight more reasonable. I like the first 2/3rds of the movie but the last 1/3rd is just too much death and destruction with not any recognition of it by Supes. Heading into BvS Ultimate next. He did try. Snyder didn't really use slow motion in that movie and let everything play as if you're just watching Gods battle (possibly because he had Batmans reaction in mind when directing it to happen after a MoS2 or whatever). So it's a little hard to follow the fight choreography, but it's Zod that keeps it in the city, really.
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Mar 27, 2021 22:02
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For example, when Zod learns to fly, Clark immediately launches him way up into the air, successfully keeping the fight at skyscraper-tip level for a few moments
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Mar 27, 2021 22:10
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he also attempts to fly zod into space, only for zod to smash into a convenient wayne industries satellite that he can use to regain leverage and send himself back down to earth
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Mar 27, 2021 22:45
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Yeah I'm ambivalent on MoS but Superman does repeatedly try to move things away from the city Zod just keeps forcing it back. It's just not dwelled on.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:02
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I argued about that forever but rewatching it is not what it thought. Hate blinds yooou
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Mar 27, 2021 23:06
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They really should have included a scene where Superman tries to prevent Zod from destroying everything, but he's also smiling while doing so, that way I know he is against destruction. Like when he turns and looks with dismay at that parking garage collapse - instead of of a frown (that could mean anything??) he should smile sadly and say "I recognize your worth, Subaru" As it is, for all I know he's trying to help Zod kill people, but is just really clumsy and bad at it Strange movie for sure
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Mar 27, 2021 23:15
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Blood Boils posted:Like when he turns and looks with dismay at that parking garage collapse - instead of of a frown (that could mean anything??) he should smile sadly and say "I recognize your worth, Subaru" Good lord, this made me laugh harder than it had any right to.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:18
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“I saw superman and zod and they were hugging and then they killed everyone and superman smiled at me.”
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Mar 27, 2021 23:22
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People's reactions to the fight are interesting because Clark does the logically correct thing at all times, and that turns out to be a turn-off. Zod announces that his goal is to kill every single person on Earth, so there would be no point trying to lure him out of the city, for example, because the city is his target. If Clark flew out of the city and said "hey come get me" then Zod would simply take the opportunity to kill as many people as he could- and he took down the entire Wayne building in what, 10 seconds? But people see Clark not trying to lure Zod out of the city and they think it means he doesn't care about people, even though trying that would cause a lot more people to die. Clark is in fact too focused on saving people from Zod in the most efficient way possible.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:24
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Brazilianpeanutwar posted:“I saw superman and zod and they were hugging and then they killed everyone and superman smiled at me.” -Steppenwolf This is what happens in justice league, he's got a creepy smile the whole time.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:18
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bushisms.txt posted:-Steppenwolf "Me fail Darkseid? That's unpossible!"
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Mar 28, 2021 00:26
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On my planet it means Subaru
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Mar 28, 2021 00:32
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2house2fly posted:Clark is in fact too focused on saving people from Zod in the most efficient way possible. Also, he’s out of his depth. This is literally the first superheroic struggle he’s been a part of, fighting a bunch of people just as powerful as him, but trained in combat their entire lives. He doesn’t have control over the situation. It’s another example of people taking the broader mythology of the character and applying it to a story where it doesn’t make sense. MoS Clark isn’t capable of saving everyone. BvS even has Lex swipe at the issue: “if God is all-powerful, he can’t be all-good; if God is all-good, he can’t be all-powerful.” It’s the same as the Batman “no-kill” poo poo. Some versions of Batman don’t kill on principle. This one doesn’t seem to care. It’s a choice made on purpose. What is the film trying to say about him?
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Mar 28, 2021 00:39
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2house2fly posted:People's reactions to the fight are interesting because Clark does the logically correct thing at all times, and that turns out to be a turn-off. Zod announces that his goal is to kill every single person on Earth, so there would be no point trying to lure him out of the city, for example, because the city is his target. If Clark flew out of the city and said "hey come get me" then Zod would simply take the opportunity to kill as many people as he could- and he took down the entire Wayne building in what, 10 seconds? But people see Clark not trying to lure Zod out of the city and they think it means he doesn't care about people, even though trying that would cause a lot more people to die. Clark is in fact too focused on saving people from Zod in the most efficient way possible. It might partly be because in Superman II when Zod and friends started targeting civilians, causing Reeve Superman to flee, which turns out to be the correct option. Of course this is only because the bad guys decide to stop. In MoS Zod, as you say, would have killed everyone. Old superman got saved by the villians just...stopping. Cavill supes didn't get that easy option.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:41
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The difference between Snyder and Johnson is that, when Clark rises from the grave, Snyder cuts to a close shot of Jerry The Friendly Cop putting down his coffee and pulling out his gun. Jerry of course doesn’t actually do anything in the subsequent battle, but the meaning of the image is crystal clear and colours everything that happens next. You don’t get anything like that with Johnson - narratively or politically. Consider the bit where a little alien, who looks vaguely like a leprechaun, mistakes BB-8 for a slot machine and starts stuffing gold coins into him. BB later uses his internal mechanisms to launch the coins like bullets and somehow incapacitate (kill?) a couple prison guards. BB then pretends to be an old-timey movie cowboy and mimes blowing smoke from the ‘gun’. So, like, how are we gonna read this? You can kinda trace a throughline from leprechaun to pot of gold to jackpot. It’s alleged that the leprechaun is an arms dealer, though we don’t actually see that. A wannabe gunslinger who assaults people with money could be a reference to the original Death Wish. But I guess these are prison guards, rather than muggers??? Anyways, not really as straightforward as “turning smoke back into a house” in the context of Martha’s struggle with the bank. There’s a major bank theme running through Snyder Cut, and that links it to the ‘reversal of entropy’ theme.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:56
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The cop reaching for his gun was hilarious. Superman comes back, and your first instinct is to shoot him? Yeah, that's about part he course for american cops
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Mar 28, 2021 00:58
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You shoot Superman and watch the bullets bounce off his chest, then when you run out of bullets you throw the gun. For some reason he dodges that
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Mar 28, 2021 01:16
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The actual issue with the end of the fight is that the violence just seems absurd. The fight starts with Superman in what look like a destroyed Metropolis. He and Zod are standing in a leveled field surrounded by dozens of burn out corpses of buildings, but moments later are standing in an intact city with a cut of normal citizens exiting a train station as if they were just hearing a commotion. People talk about "What do you want Superman to smile?" as if there isn't a days since last accident joke or Lois and Clark aren't trading jokes in what may or may not be a mass murder. I know you can explain away why the family cowers in a corner, but there is no clear set up of why the family Zod is about to kill is cowering in a corner. And then after the film ends, there is little indication of Metropolis's suffering and hardly any in the next film. As someone who waited on their stoop waiting for hours my dad to come home on 9/11, I don't really feel any realism to it. I think watching it, knowing what it feels like for just two of those buildings to be destroyed, what was depicted in the movie seemed uncanny. The scene feels grotesque for me, as silly as any Superman fight from cartoon or comics, but with implied death of thousands. So, I think when people are off-put by what happens in Man of Steel, it's not necessarily out of a rejection of realistic consequences. And I'm not trying to yuck and anyone's yum. At minimum, I can recognize the cool live action anime fight in it, and it definitely has more creativity than two characters just blasting different colored energy beams at each other. But I do think for me that's what makes the scene not work outside of a "not my superman type feel." It's not Superman is failing to save people. I think there are really great stories about facing that grim reality. I just don't think that's what that sequence is. But also the flying seal position Superman is in at the start of the fight is bad.
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Mar 28, 2021 01:33
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bushisms.txt posted:-Steppenwolf Haha i’m in danger - steppenralf
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Mar 28, 2021 01:37
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Yeah why is that family even in the train station, everybody in the whole city should be cowering in a shelter tbh. Instead it's like "Ok da ship is gone, back to business"
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Mar 28, 2021 01:54
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The governor said Metropolis was open so
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Mar 28, 2021 01:58
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Some shots show the streets packed with traffic, so someone who wanted to get out of town might think they're clever and try to get a train. Would trains be running? Doesn't necessarily matter, people might hope or expect that they are. There was a train still running in Spielberg's War Of The Worlds (it was on fire, I think?) so there's precedent in, like, cinema
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Mar 28, 2021 02:14
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We're shown a variety of different reactions from the various citizens. Many are fleeing in terror, but many are also relieved that the World Engine is gone and the world's not ending. Some are clearly rooting for Superman. There are massive traffic jams shown around the city, as many people were attempting to evacuate. Makes sense that some people would head to the train station, if only to use the building as a shelter. Also, Metropolis is just huge. If it were real, it would definitely be the largest city on Earth. So although you do get the destruction of a full city block, it's just a tiny portion of the whole city
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Mar 28, 2021 02:14
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Neurolimal posted:Not to call you a liar, but I've genuinely never heard this take. She's always been the hardass warrior, there's even a comic where her villain brainwashes superman, so she snaps his neck. What I meant was that Wonder Woman is, yes, known for being a warrior who is willing to use lethal force when necessary (Which elevates her ethically far above much of comic book heroes), but that doesn't exclude her from being culturally known for her extraordinary compassion for living creatures. I'm drawing entirely from the films here, but it's her exceptional love for life that compels her to become the savior in WW1, at the fully conscious cost of the inextricable cutting of ties to the only home she's ever known - what is effectively depicted as paradise. I have little doubt that something truly horrific happened between the Atlanteans and the Amazons, but Diana pontificating that their untrustworthiness is something essential to their being is the purest form of racism, which of course, the Snyder Cut rejects entirely. Timeless Appeal posted:The actual issue with the end of the fight is that the violence just seems absurd. The fight starts with Superman in what look like a destroyed Metropolis. He and Zod are standing in a leveled field surrounded by dozens of burn out corpses of buildings, but moments later are standing in an intact city with a cut of normal citizens exiting a train station as if they were just hearing a commotion. People talk about "What do you want Superman to smile?" as if there isn't a days since last accident joke or Lois and Clark aren't trading jokes in what may or may not be a mass murder. I know you can explain away why the family cowers in a corner, but there is no clear set up of why the family Zod is about to kill is cowering in a corner. And then after the film ends, there is little indication of Metropolis's suffering and hardly any in the next film. Fam, Metropolis is a metropolis. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 02:30
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Augus posted:knives out was a great movie Knives Out is good. Ready or Not is better.
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Mar 28, 2021 02:35
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KVeezy3 posted:Fam, Metropolis is a metropolis. we live in a metropolis
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Mar 28, 2021 02:40
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I actually don't think that Superman makes a visible effort to evacuate Zod from the city in the finale of Man of Steel, and in fact it's Zod who both takes the fight into space and back down to earth. Superman straight up doesn't have the skill and power necessary to relocate the fight at the same time as he fights the fight, so his goal is just to incapacitate Zod as quickly as possible by any means necessary. It's a really interesting progression, because as the fight begins you can see Superman smugly assuming the professional bedside manner he's generally used in his capacity as a superhero, and looking visibly annoyed at several points in his exchanges with a still-grounded Zod because he's pretty sure this should be going differently and yet he's getting fought to a standstill or even forced to give ground for some reason. When Zod achieves his final form, that's when Superman realizes that he was never in control here and just has to give it his all if he's to have any hope of saving the human race. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 03:46
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KVeezy3 posted:Fam, Metropolis is a metropolis. It's fine if that's how the scene makes sense to you. But the notion that the city is so big that some people are confused walking out of a train station being like, "What's going on?" is silly although not necessarily untrue for the film. It's equally silly to Superman punching a villain through buildings that have all been evacuated or not hurting anyone at all. It's just silliness where thousands of people are dead.
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Mar 28, 2021 04:19
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Ferrinus posted:
This is tongue in cheek right? The fight begins with him slamming zod through silos. Also, this is his literal first time in the suit so I don't get where you're reading all this.
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Mar 28, 2021 04:20
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I don't remember what it was like in the entire city on 9/11 but I'm pretty sure all five boroughs didn't just shut down within 20 minutes of the first attack? poo poo happened pretty quick in MoS and the final fight covers a ton of ground.
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Mar 28, 2021 04:25
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bushisms.txt posted:This is tongue in cheek right? The fight begins with him slamming zod through silos. Also, this is his literal first time in the suit so I don't get where you're reading all this. Oh, no, I mean at the beginning of the final battle, after Superman's just sliced the colony ship in half and smooched Lois. He's confident and self-assured because he can fly and Zod can't, and because he's just accomplished all his other goals while Zod's got nothing left.
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Mar 28, 2021 04:26
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2house2fly posted:People's reactions to the fight are interesting because Clark does the logically correct thing at all times, and that turns out to be a turn-off. Zod announces that his goal is to kill every single person on Earth, so there would be no point trying to lure him out of the city, for example, because the city is his target. If Clark flew out of the city and said "hey come get me" then Zod would simply take the opportunity to kill as many people as he could- and he took down the entire Wayne building in what, 10 seconds? But people see Clark not trying to lure Zod out of the city and they think it means he doesn't care about people, even though trying that would cause a lot more people to die. Clark is in fact too focused on saving people from Zod in the most efficient way possible. I mean part of one of the scene has Superman smashing Zod's face through the entire side of a skyscraper, structurally damaging it and likely endangering lives in its collapse and/or debris. And it really is unreasonable to claim superman was doing the "logically correct thing at all times." He could literally have kept trying to juggle Zod up higher into the air instead of, say, smashing his face through skyscrapers. This reminds of another scene too, when he first fights Zod who was harassing his mom, he blasts Zod through a gas station building and literally everything around there explodes into flames, likely killing people. Or the 2 v 1 scene, where they were clearly perusing him, but he still (as well as the military) just say gently caress it and engages in the middle of town. And I'm willing to grant Superman is coming to terms with balancing his emotional reactions vs fighting the enemy at all cost vs likely collateral damage. The problem is that Man of Steel doesn't address this at all from Superman's perspective up until the very direct act of breaking Zod's neck. For the vast majority of the fight he just goes about the business of destruction without any indication or acknowledgement of this collateral damage. Claiming that he's secretly thinking and analyzing this stuff in his head is fine and well, but it is also the epitome of reading between non-existent lines. Arkage fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 04:30
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Timeless Appeal posted:I grew up over ten miles from the Worlds Trader Center and could see it. Some friends even found some papers blowing in the wind from the building. The start of the fight looks like a pretty massive area has been destroyed. Apparently it's only supposed to be like six blocks, but it doesn't look it. And six blocks is like Times Square being destroyed. As mentioned by McSpanky, the events of Zod's attack happens in a very small period of time. Here are some images of the building that Superman and Zod crash into, which features the surrounding roads crowded with stopped vehicles and people on foot running:  While in the air, Zod turns his head towards the people in the streets and Superman prevents him from hurting them by forcing him to face him.  Those people in the building, because they're petrified and confused about the two men that just crashed in from the sky, first pause and then crowd in the corner because Zod traps them into that position.  The notion that people in the film didn't act reasonably enough during absolute chaos belies how people actually acted in the Twin Towers after the 9/11 attacks. "Together these personal stories paint a comprehensive picture of what happened and why - what influenced evacuees' behaviour. What was going through their minds when they make key decisions. This is a hugely important body of data in itself. We need to train people that when you hear the alarm, you need to get out. It is not important to shut down the computer or save documents," Galea said. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/09/september11.usa KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 05:10
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McSpanky posted:I don't remember what it was like in the entire city on 9/11 but I'm pretty sure all five boroughs didn't just shut down within 20 minutes of the first attack? poo poo happened pretty quick in MoS and the final fight covers a ton of ground. KVeezy3 posted:As mentioned by McSpanky, the events of Zod's attack happens in a very small period of time. Here are some images of the building that Superman and Zod crash into, which features the surrounding roads crowded with stopped vehicles and people on foot running:
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Mar 28, 2021 05:51
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Batman said the F word, film delivers.
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Mar 28, 2021 05:52
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Timeless Appeal posted:I'm not talking about the family. After the fight moves from the wrecked part of Metropolis, there is a shot of people poking their heads out of what I think is supposed to be the same train station. I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I'm scrolling through my copy of the film and I'm unable to locate the scene you're referencing where people are walking around like everything is normal. I brought up the particulars of the family because of your earlier post: Timeless Appeal posted:I know you can explain away why the family cowers in a corner, but there is no clear set up of why the family Zod is about to kill is cowering in a corner.
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Mar 28, 2021 06:22
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Edward Mass posted:Batman said the F word, film delivers. "Must Batman say gently caress?" "He does."
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Mar 28, 2021 06:30
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Mar 28, 2021 06:33
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I'm pretty sure the Krypton ship causes more destruction than the Superman/Zod fight.
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Mar 28, 2021 06:34
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Huh....I just finished watching it and I really enjoyed it? I didn't expect to feel this satisfied. A bit long, obviously, but I was surprised how much I enjoyed the characters I knew nothing about, like Cyborg and Steppenwolf. The motivations and plot made a reasonable amount of sense, and the fights seemed well choreographed and not a muddled mess like most Marvel fights. I thought Snyder did a good job of showing just how strong Kal-El is in the climactic fight. And the Flash was really interesting imo. Really the only headscratchers for me were in the epilogue. I'd give it a B or a B+ and I was expecting a C. 
FistEnergy fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 06:40
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