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McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Timeless Appeal posted:

Yeah, but 9/11 was two buildings. Like go look at the face off between Zod and Superman you can see at least a good dozen absolutely wrecked skyscrapers just behind Superman and Zod's face-off.

Which, if you watch the MoS/BvS Metropolis attack supercut, clocks in at about 13 minutes start to finish. It beggars belief that any citizenry in any similar scenario and location would be expected to organize themselves into a calm and orderly evacuation instead of succumbing to panic, confusion and disbelief.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Yeah, people in disasters genuinely do pretty much all the dumbest possible things you can imagine.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

I remember some early criticism of BvS was that Bruce took too long too tell his employees to evacuate the building, but in a situation like that, there's no way or knowing if running or staying is the best option.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Mantis42 posted:

I'm pretty sure the Krypton ship causes more destruction than the Superman/Zod fight.
Yeah, the World Engine thing does the most thorough job, but based on how many buildings the ship clips it might not be too far off in terms of overall number of lost buildings. The World Engine definitely kills more though.

Timeless Appeal posted:

I'm not talking about the family. After the fight moves from the wrecked part of Metropolis, there is a shot of people poking their heads out of what I think is supposed to be the same train station.
That's pretty much right after the ship which had been causing most of the destruction got destroyed. In a typical alien invasion film, that is precisely when people start poking their heads out, under the assumption that things are gonna be fine now. The difference being that in this instance, the aliens themselves have a capacity for destruction matching that of the "mothership".

KVeezy3 posted:

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I'm scrolling through my copy of the film and I'm unable to locate the scene you're referencing where people are walking around like everything is normal.
He's talking about the scene around 2:03:00 (on Netflix at least.)

McSpanky posted:

Which, if you watch the MoS/BvS Metropolis attack supercut, clocks in at about 13 minutes start to finish. It beggars belief that any citizenry in any similar scenario and location would be expected to organize themselves into a calm and orderly evacuation instead of succumbing to panic, confusion and disbelief.
Yeah. In terms of 9/11, that's basically the period between the two towers getting hit. Obviously a bit more obvious right from the start that this isn't an accident, but that's not a lot of time to process anything. Most people were probably still reeling from the fact that they were not alone.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Mar 28, 2021

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Yeah, people in disasters genuinely do pretty much all the dumbest possible things you can imagine.

My favourite quote on this was somebody talking about the difficulty of announcing that there's a tsunami, because most people immediately head to the beach to see what a tsunami looks like.

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

Spacebump posted:

I can't believe they made such an expensive trilogy and had no idea who the villain was going to be until JJ decided it was Palpatine all along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XHsNkgsPzM

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

When Zod achieves his final form, that's when Superman realizes that he was never in control here and just has to give it his all if he's to have any hope of saving the human race.

zod's central error. form changes are used to turn the tables, revealing them while you have the advantage is just asking for trouble.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Arkage posted:

I mean part of one of the scene has Superman smashing Zod's face through the entire side of a skyscraper, structurally damaging it and likely endangering lives in its collapse and/or debris. And it really is unreasonable to claim superman was doing the "logically correct thing at all times." He could literally have kept trying to juggle Zod up higher into the air instead of, say, smashing his face through skyscrapers.

He smashes Zod's face against the windows on the outside of the skyscraper, presumably so as to avoid structural damage(as much as possible). This is after he already tried to juggle Zod and it didn't work- Zod recovered in midair, flew away, and got the drop on him.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser


Yeah none of that was structural, that was the decorative exterior bits and windows. Those are only structural in Krustylu Studios

JonathonSpectre
Jul 23, 2003

I replaced the Shermatar and text with this because I don't wanna see racial slurs every time you post what the fuck

Soiled Meat
God drat this is the most pedantic and stupid criticism of Man of Steel. It's so loving dumb. It's like asking why the US military didn't save more people during the city attack in Independence Day. In case that's a reach, it's because they were busy fighting the loving aliens.

"Why couldn't Superman separate into two distinct entities so that while he was fighting the World Engine he could also be in Metropolis saving everyone killed by the World Engine? I mean, splitting into two people isn't a thing but he's Superman so I feel justified in asking this stupid question."

"Why didn't he just simply easily defeat the equally-powerful, better-trained psychopath who just vowed to murder every person on Earth effortlessly without having to try at all so he could also at the exact same time save everyone in the city?"

"Why didn't he take the fight elsewhere? Even though his opponent was just as fast and strong as him and can also fly so Superman literally cannot set the terms of the engagement by himself he still should have done, I don't know, something."

"Why doesn't he fInD aNoThEr WaY? He's not my Superman because I want to bitch about nothing to make myself feel smart have you seen Lindsay Ellis's take I agree with her thing she said about this. Whatever it is. gently caress Zack Snyder dudebro rear end in a top hat."

Answers to the questions are in the questions in bold. Jesus Christ there are some things to criticize MoS over but the whole "Why didn't Superman do multiple things at once while engaged in a fight for his loving life with someone who has threatened to wipe out the human race?" is some IMO bad faith stupid poo poo made up by click-chasing ZS haters back in 2013 and for some reason it's still floating around like it in any way relates to what is actually happening on the screen that we actually see happening onscreen in Man of Steel.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



Timeless Appeal more like ZERO APPEAL

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
To be fair the movie is written so that the only way for Superman to save people is to take on the bad guys directly. There's legit criticisms of it being written that way- how about writing it so that Superman's strength isn't what saves the day but eg his intellect or compassion? His strength could even be a detriment, like I dunno make the baddies have a solar-powered device and by punching it Superman just transfers the solar energy absorbed by his body into the device, making it stronger- like in Avengers when Thor attacks Iron Man with lightning which just maxes out his suit's power.

But it's also useful to note that Man Of Steel being written the way it is ties into things like the World Engine as a factory in the third world spewing pollution and rendering the earth uninhabitable. The villains of Man Of Steel are right-wing fascists deliberately accelerating climate change in the name of eugenics! And we're locked in a life-or-death struggle with these people whether we want to acknowledge it or not

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

JonathonSpectre posted:

"Why couldn't Superman separate into two distinct entities so that while he was fighting the World Engine he could also be in Metropolis saving everyone killed by the World Engine? I mean, splitting into two people isn't a thing but he's Superman so I feel justified in asking this stupid question."

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




JonathonSpectre posted:

"Why doesn't he fInD aNoThEr WaY? He's not my Superman because I want to bitch about nothing to make myself feel smart have you seen Lindsay Ellis's take I agree with her thing she said about this. Whatever it is. gently caress Zack Snyder dudebro rear end in a top hat."

I think it's weird how often Ellis is brought up here despite her saying very little about Snyder's movies.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

The last act is certainly rushed and is all the weaker for it. Some scenes needed more time to breathe and others shortened a bit. The kiss at ground zero scene should be excised from existence. MoS is still my favorite of the bunch but that scene is one I actively dislike from the film.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Neurolimal posted:

Not to call you a liar, but I've genuinely never heard this take. She's always been the hardass warrior, there's even a comic where her villain brainwashes superman, so she snaps his neck.

Closest I can think of to being about love and compassion was when she was made a Star Sapphire in the Green Lantern crossover comic thing, but that was clearly bullshit just done because she had tits.



The neck snapping thing was supposed to be a low point for her and she quit being Wonder Woman for a year after she did it.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005




Alhazred posted:

I think it's weird how often Ellis is brought up here despite her saying very little about Snyder's movies.

I think people get her mixed up with Maggie Mae Fish.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
The Star Sapphire corps being all-female is just the cringest, and really telling that the whole story was Geoff Johns' idea apparently.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Alhazred posted:

I think it's weird how often Ellis is brought up here despite her saying very little about Snyder's movies.

Part of the reason she's brought up is because she made a tactless joke about Snyder's relationship with his mother around the time he was dealing with a family tragedy.

Alhazred posted:


The neck snapping thing was supposed to be a low point for her and she quit being Wonder Woman for a year after she did it.

You ever read the comic where Diana blinds herself with snake venom in order to kill Medusa? :black101:

Arkage
Aug 10, 2008

Things fall apart;
the centre cannot hold

JonathonSpectre posted:

God drat this is the most pedantic and stupid criticism of Man of Steel. It's so loving dumb. It's like asking why the US military didn't save more people during the city attack in Independence Day. In case that's a reach, it's because they were busy fighting the loving aliens.

"Why couldn't Superman separate into two distinct entities so that while he was fighting the World Engine he could also be in Metropolis saving everyone killed by the World Engine? I mean, splitting into two people isn't a thing but he's Superman so I feel justified in asking this stupid question."

"Why didn't he just simply easily defeat the equally-powerful, better-trained psychopath who just vowed to murder every person on Earth effortlessly without having to try at all so he could also at the exact same time save everyone in the city?"

"Why didn't he take the fight elsewhere? Even though his opponent was just as fast and strong as him and can also fly so Superman literally cannot set the terms of the engagement by himself he still should have done, I don't know, something."

"Why doesn't he fInD aNoThEr WaY? He's not my Superman because I want to bitch about nothing to make myself feel smart have you seen Lindsay Ellis's take I agree with her thing she said about this. Whatever it is. gently caress Zack Snyder dudebro rear end in a top hat."

Answers to the questions are in the questions in bold. Jesus Christ there are some things to criticize MoS over but the whole "Why didn't Superman do multiple things at once while engaged in a fight for his loving life with someone who has threatened to wipe out the human race?" is some IMO bad faith stupid poo poo made up by click-chasing ZS haters back in 2013 and for some reason it's still floating around like it in any way relates to what is actually happening on the screen that we actually see happening onscreen in Man of Steel.

Not sure why you're so deeply and emotionally invested in Capeshit bro. It's like you feel I'm attacking you personally by bringing up complaints I had with MoS. I've already said I like Snyder's stuff, Watchmen is prob in my top 5 films, ZSJL is top-tier capeshit, so chill out and stop arguing with imaginary strawman enemies. You are the embodiment of those toxic rear end Snyder fans that Snyder-haters spend all their time focusing on.

Back to the point, again, Snyder could've easily have shown Superman attempting to do things like move the fight much more explicitly (even if it's to his detriment in the fight, or failing repeatedly at trying, whatever), or desperately looking at destruction, or literally loving anything at all to show Superman acknowledging that even though a fight through crumbling skyscrapers looks cool, it's still actually bad as far as collateral damage and dead civilians go. Instead, we're left with people like you claiming, actually, the movie is perfect and Superman is perfect and the fight is perfect and everything is logical, you just need to be a true believer. It's like you found a new religion, that Snyder wrote the Gospel of Superman, and you're the apologetics machine churning out rationales for why literally everything is perfect.

Arkage fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Mar 28, 2021

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

Instead of wondering why Snyder didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show.

And "it looks cool" is the surface-level stuff that gets us "he likes cool visuals but is an idiot otherwise" lazy criticisms that entrenched themselves in the discourse over this work. At some point you have to trust that a director knows what they're doing and while it's fine to not like the direction they took, it helps to at least try to understand why.

Arkage
Aug 10, 2008

Things fall apart;
the centre cannot hold

Jimbot posted:

Instead of wondering why Snyder didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show.

OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show.

(Hopefully this illustrates how absolutely pointless your framing is, as it could be used to justify literally anything in a movie. Also it's pretty ironic your avatar is of Superman smashing Zod through buildings)

2house2fly posted:

He smashes Zod's face against the windows on the outside of the skyscraper, presumably so as to avoid structural damage(as much as possible). This is after he already tried to juggle Zod and it didn't work- Zod recovered in midair, flew away, and got the drop on him.

The side of a skyscraper is not 100% windows. There is concrete and steel beams and everything else being smashed along the way, with an explosion of debris both into the building and outside of the building. And just definitionally, one cannot claim that smashing someone through a skyscraper is avoiding structural damage. This is getting a bit absurd now.

Arkage fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Mar 28, 2021

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008
Man of Steel loving owns

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Arkage posted:

OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show.

Doesn't turn out well for Joss because what he decided needed to be in the movie is pretty much as bad as the stuff he decided didn't.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Those are not opinions that even out.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Arkage posted:

Back to the point, again, Snyder could've easily have shown Superman attempting to do things like move the fight much more explicitly (even if it's to his detriment in the fight, or failing repeatedly at trying, whatever), or desperately looking at destruction, or literally loving anything at all to show Superman acknowledging that even though a fight through crumbling skyscrapers looks cool, it's still actually bad as far as collateral damage and dead civilians go.

The movie does show Superman desperately looking at destruction

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
I love that shot. Everything about it

hiddenriverninja
May 10, 2013

life is locomotion
keep moving
trust that you'll find your way

2house2fly posted:

The movie does show Superman desperately looking at destruction



but, like, you can't explicitly see his face before

Arkage
Aug 10, 2008

Things fall apart;
the centre cannot hold

2house2fly posted:

The movie does show Superman desperately looking at destruction



Define "desperately" in relation to this scene. A better phrase for how it's presented is "momentarily distracted" IMO.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Arkage posted:

OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show.

(Hopefully this illustrates how absolutely pointless your framing is, as it could be used to justify literally anything in a movie. Also it's pretty ironic your avatar is of Superman smashing Zod through buildings)

Asking what is conveyed by Joss's bloodless and often puerile film condemns it all the more harshly.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Arkage posted:

Define "desperately" in relation to this scene. A better phrase for how it's presented is "momentarily distracted" IMO.

I mean, you can project whatever emotion you want into that scene because Clark's back is turned to us. You can even picture him grinning like crazy and thinking to himself "holy gently caress! that was awesome! I wanna so MORE 'splosions!!!!" if you wanted.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
Eh, distracted is probably a better description of what's happening in that moment. It's still Supes realizing and taking in the damage being caused, then getting pummeled for it.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon

Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

The Star Sapphire corps being all-female is just the cringest, and really telling that the whole story was Geoff Johns' idea apparently.

Each Lantern group has it's own Avatar. Ion, the Green Lantern's avatar, is a space whale. The Bull is the Red Latern's avatar symbolizing rage. The Star Sapphire Corps, which is all about love supposedly, is the Predator which looks like this....



On the one hand yes cringe on the other hand saying love is Predatory and being on one end of the spectrum (Green/Will being the center) I don't know if it was him thinking he's having a clever moment or what to come up with it but I don't know what Johns was trying to say, especially if the Sapphire Corps are all women.

Gatts fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 28, 2021

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Arkage posted:

Define "desperately" in relation to this scene. A better phrase for how it's presented is "momentarily distracted" IMO.

Yeah but why is he distracted? He's not being harmed by the explosion, and he's still in the middle of a life-or-death battle. Maybe not desperation, but shock or horror or fright. He's frozen like a deer in headlights

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

Gatts posted:

Each Lantern group has it's own Avatar. Ion, the Green Lantern's avatar, is a space whale. The Bull is the Red Latern's avatar symbolizing rage. The Star Sapphire Corps, which is all about love supposedly, is the Predator which looks like this....



On the one hand yes cringe on the other hand saying love is Predatory and being on one end of the spectrum (Green/Will being the center) I don't know if it was him thinking he's having a clever moment or what to come up with it but I don't know what Johns was trying to say, especially if the Sapphire Corps are all women.

Taking some inspiration from the xeno queen I see

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

2house2fly posted:

Yeah but why is he distracted? He's not being harmed by the explosion, and he's still in the middle of a life-or-death battle. Maybe not desperation, but shock or horror or fright. He's frozen like a deer in headlights

PRETTY LIGHTS GO SPARKLE BOOM, HEHE! MORE VIOLENCE.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

teagone posted:

PRETTY LIGHTS GO SPARKLE BOOM, HEHE! MORE VIOLENCE.

Don't think that's what Arkage is implying tbf

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

It comes right after him casually dodging the fuel trailer, and as a consequence of him not stopping it. 'Alarmed realisation of where the fight is going' is my reading of it.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

MacheteZombie posted:

Don't think that's what Arkage is implying tbf

I know it's not. I'm just being silly.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

teagone posted:

I know it's not. I'm just being silly.

Fair enough, I'll cop to being slower than drax

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Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Arkage posted:

Define "desperately" in relation to this scene. A better phrase for how it's presented is "momentarily distracted" IMO.

Remember, Superman is confident to the point of smug through the front half of that fight and particularly reliant on his ability to fly. Right before that .gif, Zod's hurled an entire tanker truck at him, but Superman's able to smoothly lift himself a couple meters into the air, twist his torso a bit, and just slide between the two parts of the vehicle, unscathed.

Then there's a huge explosion behind him, oh poo poo! He turns to gawk - and immediately, Zod zooms in from stage right to smash him into the pavement.

We learn along with Superman that he doesn't even have time to stare desperately at the destruction, because he's up against someone who is as strong and as fast as he is and who refuses to drop the pressure. If you're in an actual, toe-to-toe, life or death fight you don't get to admire the dojo's decor.

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