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The argument is silly because the entire premise of the fight is that Superman is fighting to the death to prevent innocent people from being hurt. “There’s only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die, or I do.” Superman’s knowingly putting himself in a position where the most powerful being in the known universe is going to beat him to death, in order to protect people, and you can’t find any evidence that he cares about people in that scenario? Zod’s not totally right, after all; Superman could avoid death by abandoning Earth, or joining Zod’s in the slaughter. But Zod knows that Superman would never abandon humanity, and mocks him for it.
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Mar 28, 2021 18:46
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 09:41 |
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KVeezy3 posted:I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I'm scrolling through my copy of the film and I'm unable to locate the scene you're referencing where people are walking around like everything is normal. But I was more making an aside before about the family being pinned down where in that specific example because I'm really not sure why they don't try to run for it besides just being very, very scared. But it's admittingly a pettier complaint. A Buttery Pastry posted:That's pretty much right after the ship which had been causing most of the destruction got destroyed. In a typical alien invasion film, that is precisely when people start poking their heads out, under the assumption that things are gonna be fine now. The difference being that in this instance, the aliens themselves have a capacity for destruction matching that of the "mothership". It's a mix of finding it jarring from going to Judgement Day to a mostly intact city. But also that you're having thousands of people die but still sprinkling in one liners and sight gags. It's better than the comparable Avengers scene because Zack Snyder is a much more talented director and the actual fight between Zod and Superman is cool. But in a lot of ways for me it's just replacing burnt out cars with burn out buildings. It's not that things don't make sense, but more that the narrative of the ramifications isn't being sold to me. I know intellectually tens of thousands of people would have to be dying, but I don't really feel it. EDIT: So for me, if you're going to go there but not really deal with the brutal reality of it then why not just do the equally silly cartoon version. I don't these things are mistakes outside of I think Snyder could paint a better sense of internal geography. I'm just reflecting on why I and other people found the scene off-putting. Also not real issue, but they/them please. Tanker shot is great though. Superman is doing this natural thing of dodging, successful, but still there are these huge ramifications. It tells you everything about what it's like to be Superman. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 18:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The argument is silly because the entire premise of the fight is that Superman is fighting to the death to prevent innocent people from being hurt. 
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Mar 28, 2021 18:56
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Arkage posted:OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show. I'm not sure why you think that framing is so ridiculous - what Jimbot is describing is the basic act of interpretation. There is no discourse about what Whedon was trying to convey in Justice League, because there is no discussion at all about Whedon's Justice League. This doesn't mean you're supposed to find only interpretations that makes the director look good, it just means engaging with the film as text. So while you're watching the MOS fight sequences, you're ostensibly baffled about how Superman feels about anything, and therefore might even be reveling in the death and destruction. In the fishing boat introduction, one of the steel cages is about fall on Clark, until another worker notices and risks his life to 'save' him, despite being relative strangers. The worker then calls Clark a dumb-rear end and berates him, before helping him get up. But what is that worker really thinking and what does he really want? God help us, we'll never know.
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Mar 28, 2021 19:02
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Omfg how does someone read so much and yet see so little when it comes to watching movies?
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Mar 28, 2021 19:07
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Arkage posted:OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show. We don't do that kind of analysis of Joss Whedon's Justice League because the answer is "Joss only sees women as sexual objects"; if there was a there there we would have seen it.
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Mar 28, 2021 19:14
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Arkage posted:OK, and for Josstice League, instead of wondering why Joss didn't do what you wanted him to do, you should think about what he was conveying by the stuff he did show. https://twitter.com/GeekLawGrad/status/1376045535476527105
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Mar 28, 2021 19:19
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Gatts posted:Each Lantern group has it's own Avatar. Ion, the Green Lantern's avatar, is a space whale. The Bull is the Red Latern's avatar symbolizing rage. The Star Sapphire Corps, which is all about love supposedly, is the Predator which looks like this.... I actually kind of like the idea of the spirit animals representing extreme manifestations of the represented emotion, and there's plenty of cases where love can give way to an unhealthy, predatory obsession. As far as Geoff Johns' stupid bullshit goes, I dont think it's his worst idea (and gives the Star Sapphires a more interesting edge than they'd have without) The "all-female" part is just stupid though. Make Superman a Star Sapphire tia
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Mar 28, 2021 19:22
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Neurolimal posted:I actually kind of like the idea of the spirit animals representing extreme manifestations of the represented emotion, and there's plenty of cases where love can give way to an unhealthy, predatory obsession. As far as Geoff Johns' stupid bullshit goes, I dont think it's his worst idea (and gives the Star Sapphires a more interesting edge than they'd have without) As long as he gets the crotch window like the women get boob windows
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Mar 28, 2021 19:26
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How about a nice, personal article from someone who really connected with Justice League and Batman v Superman? https://medium.com/cinemaelite/the-well-earned-exploration-of-humanity-in-zack-snyders-justice-league-42cbcc19eca8
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Mar 28, 2021 19:29
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Timeless Appeal posted:It's about the two minute and eight seconds in this clip. Lady walks out with short hair in front of green doors that I think is supposed to be a train station. I think where I struggle with the scene is that the landscape Zod and Superman are standing in front of communicates to me like this massive level of destruction. I think it's supposed to be six blocks, but the buildings are pretty far in the background. So you have this massive leveled plane and then then a lot of these absolutely destroyed buildings. So, it feels very jarring when it cuts to these people exiting the building and their motivation seems like, "I just heard something... I need to step out and see what's going on" and this relatively untouched part of Metropolis. I watched this clip last night after reading some of your posts. I think that yea, one of the issues is that it looks like they are in this vast, ruined city, but I think the implication is that the half-destroyed buildings on the outer rim of this circle are the ones that got hit with the outer edge of the gravity beam (since they aren't completely flattened like where Clark and Zod are standing), so just beyond that are in-tact parts of the city. TBF it is hard to see anything beyond the ruined sky-scrapers, which you only even get a shot at when the camera is on Clark, but also that might be because its kind of a low shot focused on Clark and the background is out of focus and obscured by dust. I think another thing to be said is the ridiculous speed with which the two are ping ponging through the drat city. So it's been a few minutes since the alien spaceship disappeared and the massive noise stopped, then all of a sudden there's another large "CRACK" and some beams coming out of a different skyscraper near the edge of the destruction, then like a second later Clark and Zod are rocketing out and are a few blocks away. The people looking up from the train station entrance might seem silly but realistically they wandered out and then are frozen in awe at the building falling (still a bit away from them) and then likely retreat back to into the station (which they haven't moved far from, and is probably a decent place to shelter if it leads to an underground subway). But yeah, you could be a mile away from the center of the destruction and then all of a sudden Zod and Superman are just there, so someone caught gawking is probably someone who was in a relatively quiet and remote part of the city, maybe moving away/seeking shelter before these guys shoot over from the other side of the city like jets.
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Mar 28, 2021 19:31
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There are some interesting things about Josstice that I keep coming back to. Like, At the end when Barry gets a job his dad is pleased but not overjoyed like in ZSJL. He just says like "hey, way to go" When Wonder Woman attacks the terrorists it conspicuously cuts away before any moment of impact. Where ZSJL shows bodies shattered and splattered against the wall, Joss lets you imagine they're just seeing little bluebirds flying around their heads. Also when the lead terrorist says "I don't believe it" she says "I'm a believer" Repeated use of the word "civilian" as if the protagonists are in the armed forces Scenes which empower the main characters are cut, scenes which undercut the characters' heroism are added In ZSJL Wonder Woman notes that Batman's new gauntlets are copied off hers. In Josstice, Batman suggests to Wonder Woman that she copy him and become a secret crusader by night. "Dress up like a bat, I won't even sue" E: Jimbot posted:How about a nice, personal article from someone who really connected with Justice League and Batman v Superman? 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 19:33
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2house2fly posted:Repeated use of the word "civilian" as if the protagonists are in the armed forces I understand a lot of Whedon changes (even if they're written really bad); as part of his task Avengers-fy the movie & to convert "epic god mythology" to "grounded schlubs who have powers" he added a bunch of [terribly written and delivered] jokes that purposefully undercut the characters' presence and gravitaz. What I dont understand is this, which as you point out makes them come off as more militant & disconnected from the people, which is the opposite of what he's ostensibly going for elsewhere.
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Mar 28, 2021 19:44
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Jimbot posted:How about a nice, personal article from someone who really connected with Justice League and Batman v Superman? Thank you for sharing this, it owns. Its super interesting to me because the very thing that drew me to Snyders Clark/Superman was his resistance to the bullying he suffered as a kid. Theres always been this awesome undercurrent of the wielding of power in the face of trauma running through the Snyderverse heroes and even villains that Ive always loved. You of course get this with a lot of superhero movie/tv media in general, but not much has quite weaved it so deeply into every facet of the narrative as the Snyderverse. It is almost purely focused on the concept of what broken or deeply emotionally scarred people do in the face of wielding such immense power against an unfathomable evil and it has a universally optimistic and authentically humanity affirming angle of "they will always choose the light if they face it together". BvS pushes Batman to the absolute brink to essentially push even his biggest supporters (his out of universe comics fans) to the point of "hating" Batman (or Snyder lol), but for the purpose of saying "can a Batman who is at the point of committing a cardinal sin against his own core tenets possibly be redeemed, even after trying to kill Superman?" and the answer to Snyder is unequivocally "Yes, if he seeks help". Batman in his journey from BvS to JL realizes "I cannot be alone anymore" and that is loving beautiful. The very formation of the Justice League hinges on essentially the most epicly entertaining session of group therapy imaginable.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:00
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What these reviews also touch on is that Snyder's DCEU is also at least as much about the real world that you or I live in as the heroes themselves (despite the fact that so much of it is framed mythologically).
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Mar 28, 2021 20:08
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Jimbot posted:How about a nice, personal article from someone who really connected with Justice League and Batman v Superman? I agree with all of this, which is why I find the Knightmare sections a bit incongruous and the intended plan for JL2 and 3 somewhat redundant. We've already arrived at the end of a trilogy in which the protagonists have gone through the worst and come out the other side bruised and battered but wiser and more self-assured. As much as I want to see Snyder continue in this universe, I have no real desire to see these characters broken down emotionally again, especially to the degree it appears they were going to be.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:26
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Arkage posted:Define "desperately" in relation to this scene. A better phrase for how it's presented is "momentarily distracted" IMO. Superman’s physically framed so he’s not only dwarfed by the explosion, his presence is made minuscule by being placed at the very bottom of the frame while the explosion rises so high the camera has to pan up to capture the enormity of it. This is the simple language of film.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:37
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Cyborg is an immediately more interesting and fundamentally deeper take on the concept of a "black Superman" and I am supremely annoyed someone like Ta- Nehesi Coates isnt tackling a character who could theoretically in an instant institute reperations for black Americans.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:45
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THR has a ~40m podcast up with Zack talking about the VFX undertaking ZSJL went, among other things. It's a fun listen: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/b..._source=twitter
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Mar 28, 2021 21:15
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hiddenriverninja posted:but, like, you can't explicitly see his face before You can, that's a gif clip cut from a larger scene, most of which is much closer
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Mar 28, 2021 21:30
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sethsez posted:I agree with all of this, which is why I find the Knightmare sections a bit incongruous and the intended plan for JL2 and 3 somewhat redundant. We've already arrived at the end of a trilogy in which the protagonists have gone through the worst and come out the other side bruised and battered but wiser and more self-assured. As much as I want to see Snyder continue in this universe, I have no real desire to see these characters broken down emotionally again, especially to the degree it appears they were going to be. The knightmare future is necessary to point out that the "random" acts of kindness committed by our heroes aren't enough to achieve any true or lasting justice. They treated a symptom, not the cause. AccountSupervisor posted:Cyborg is an immediately more interesting and fundamentally deeper take on the concept of a "black Superman" and I am supremely annoyed someone like Ta- Nehesi Coates isnt tackling a character who could theoretically in an instant institute reperations for black Americans. I mean, exactly. This project, assuming it ever gets made, will be a real test of Coates imagination. If batman and Cyborg can't move beyond charity then Darkside's victory is inevitable.
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Mar 28, 2021 21:57
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A couple of things I noticed on a re-watch last night that stuck out to me. During the Lois/Martha coffee scene whenever it shows the two of them talking there is a model of a midwestern farm windmill in the background of directly between the two of them, Superman being from a farm in Kansas, showing that while they’re talking about each other the crux of the conversation seems to relate to Superman, since that’s what the whole world is revolving around. Whenever it just shows Lois directly above her head and on the right, typically where a “thought bubble” goes in a comic there is a painting on the wall of a sunflower, which is the state flower of Kansas. Lois, always thinking about Clark. But when it just shows Martha, there’s nothing like that in the background, because it’s not Martha, it’s Manhunter/Swanwick, and he’s focused on Lois and her getting better, not on Superman.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:07
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Booted up HBO max just to double check if this was true and not some kind of fan edit to generate anger and yep, it's there. Now I wonder if that ADR is actually Gal Gadot, a voice double, or a clip from a sound library. What a choice to make about something really insignificant.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:11
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sethsez posted:I agree with all of this, which is why I find the Knightmare sections a bit incongruous and the intended plan for JL2 and 3 somewhat redundant. We've already arrived at the end of a trilogy in which the protagonists have gone through the worst and come out the other side bruised and battered but wiser and more self-assured. As much as I want to see Snyder continue in this universe, I have no real desire to see these characters broken down emotionally again, especially to the degree it appears they were going to be. As others have noted, what’s at stake is not Batman’s self-esteem. To make a point of this, Cyborg refuses to join Darkside (in exchange for the resurrection of his parents and a comfortable suburban lifestyle), but still ends up in the same future - just now on the receiving end of the violence. The ‘Mad Max’ world isn’t actually so bad for the majority of people. They’re living comfortably while this demon-god harvests all the resources.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:13
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Yeah, while the bombed out shell of Gotham is horrifying to Batman and Cyborg, to the rest of that world it may be no more disconcerting than irl Aleppo is to us. "That's a shame, but whatcha gonna do?" Not hard to picture Godfrey on the news, saying as distasteful as his governance is Darkseid is necessary to ensure stability in the region lol
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Mar 28, 2021 22:34
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In general, Wonder Woman is turned from an exceptionally confident woman who treats Batman like a rambunctious child in Snyder’s version to a heartbroken mess who constantly gets bested by Batman in verbal sparring matches in Whedon’s. It’s an, uh, interesting change.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:34
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On my second half of my rewatch and I like the film even more the second time around. Once the initial bombast and spectacle wears off you start paying more attention to the details and acting. One thing I want to say is that this is some of the best acting Henry Cavill has done. The moment Clark is resurrected he goes through so many emotions scene-to-scene. When he looks down at the "If you seek his monument look around you" memorial he almost broke down crying but then the rest of the Justice League shows up and puts him on alert. It's so drat good. By the time he puts on that black suit he's the Superman everyone wants him to be. Edit: To add to my thoughts on Superman's transformation: Clark, after he puts on his suit and hears his fathers speak to him, flies into space he extends his arms out to embrace the world and become its light. It's Snyder's best use of his Christ imagery to date, in my opinion. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 22:40
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Alexander Hamilton posted:In general, Wonder Woman is turned from an exceptionally confident woman who treats Batman like a rambunctious child in Snyder’s version to a heartbroken mess who constantly gets bested by Batman in verbal sparring matches in Whedon’s.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:57
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Timeless Appeal posted:I actually kinda disagree with this positioning. The Whedon version has her going back and forth between being an object of affection and a put upon sitcom housewife. I'm 99% sure the line about her calling the rest of the League children was removed. When she's annoyed with Batman for the gauntlets, it's him being that douche-y dude at work who talks over ladies or steals their ideas. It's a much more relatable moment for Diana as a woman to be annoyed with her team and actually plays with Bruce's privilege and narrow perspective. I didn't interpret her as annoyed, the delivery comes across as amused at the obvious source of inspiration
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Mar 28, 2021 23:22
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McCloud posted:I didn't interpret her as annoyed, the delivery comes across as amused at the obvious source of inspiration It's obviously this.
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Mar 28, 2021 23:43
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Necrothatcher posted:It's obviously this. I didnt think this was in question. Just Batman doing what Batman does and getting inspiration.
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Mar 28, 2021 23:44
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Yeah she's got a big smile when she says "you should do a lasso too"
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Mar 28, 2021 23:46
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Timeless Appeal posted:I'm 99% sure the line about her calling the rest of the League children was removed. 2house2fly posted:Yeah she's got a big smile when she says "you should do a lasso too"
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Mar 28, 2021 23:54
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McCloud posted:I didn't interpret her as annoyed Yeah, you're not supposed to. What a weird rear end reading of that scene, lol. Clearly Diana thinks it's cute/amusing that Alfred believes his/Bruce's gauntlet design is unique and original lol. I don't know how or why anyone would read the VERY obvious text any other way.
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Mar 28, 2021 23:56
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I think it's also kinda cute that Batman was so impressed with Diana he wanted to emulate her  It's kind of the same thing with Superman. He's trying to be a better and more hopeful man and is taking after the most hopeful person he knows.
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Mar 28, 2021 23:58
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it just occurred to me that Barry Allen outruns an explosion by running towards it
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Mar 29, 2021 00:00
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2house2fly posted:it just occurred to me that Barry Allen outruns an explosion by running towards it He phased through it which is another B.S. Flash is broken power.
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Mar 29, 2021 00:03
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2house2fly posted:it just occurred to me that Barry Allen outruns an explosion by running towards it That's the Flash bullshit I am in for
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Mar 29, 2021 00:04
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Darko posted:He phased through it which is another B.S. Flash is broken power. Yeah, but it looked cool as hell.
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Mar 29, 2021 00:07
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Rewatch done. Liked it even better the second time, as I said before. The epilogue stuff after Lex and Deathstroke's feels tacked on, because it was, but I do appreciate how Snyder just threw everything in there. I really do hope we get a sequel to tie everything off with a nice bow. I want more of this Superman who completed is personal journey and what kind of tales you can tell with him.
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Mar 29, 2021 00:10
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