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Lord_Magmar posted:They're good people with good hearts but I don't think they've been portrayed as perfect. When robbing that bank at the start they caused mass panic amongst people who were innocent, and that kick into a pole and smash against the ground could have killed Sam's friend/contact, and their fight on top of the vans also could've easily been fatal for the heroes (in fact Karli in particular seems quite willing to kill Bucky for getting in her way).
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Apr 5, 2021 03:08
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BrianWilly posted:There's a pretty big difference between being willing to get your hands dirty, maybe even willing to kill an enemy in direct combat, versus tying a bunch of people up and then burning them to death. A lot of characters in the MCU have some sort of body count. That's not the same as executing someone who's no threat to you. No, but I can see how the former leads to the latter (see Thor killing Thanos when Thanos is completely powerless). Karli in a moment of frustration and vengeance doing something monstrous is not grounds to write her off as totally a villain, now if the next three episodes have her kicking puppies and slaughtering anyone in her way then I'll have a problem with that presentation. But Karli killing guards who are specifically part of the GRC leviathan she's fighting against seems not good, but certainly not suddenly puppy-kicking evil.
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Apr 5, 2021 03:10
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Seriously? Thanos had killed half the universe. It would be weird if Thor didn't kill him. Comparing that to firebombing a bunch of warehouse employees is like...I'm sorry, but I don't know where people's heads are sometimes. We don't have to have to defend TV shows this hard. 
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Apr 5, 2021 03:15
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I mean, I expect the GRC to be HYDRA or the Illuminati
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Apr 5, 2021 03:16
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If we're on the topic about why MCU villains tend to be so weakly written, I think part of that is they keep killing them off so fast. There's a few exceptions here and there (Thanos of course, Ronan I guess retroactively; Loki and Bucky could also count but I don't think many people would consider them, or at least Bucky, "villains" anymore) but generally they almost never last for more than one film. 90-130 minutes isn't a whole lotta time to breathe. I'm not saying you can't make it work, but you need to put in the extra effort to make that time count and I don't think the writing quality of the average Marvel film is really up to that task.
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Apr 5, 2021 03:18
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BrianWilly posted:Seriously? Thanos had killed half the universe. It would be weird if Thor didn't kill him. Comparing that to firebombing a bunch of warehouse employees is like...I'm sorry, but I don't know where people's heads are sometimes. We don't have to have to defend TV shows this hard. I was giving an example of a heroic individual killing someone powerless after the person wronged them in their mind (and did so against the wishes of the rest of their team, funnily enough). It was not meant to make a moral equivalence between Thanos and the people Karli killed, just an example that sprung to mind of a moderately similar situation. I'm also not defending anything, I'm offering my view on the situation and the characterisation and the narrative, because I thought the scene worked fine and isn't some hack writing to make Karli suddenly villanous when she's been right the entire time.
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Apr 5, 2021 03:18
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I'm just getting a serious case of deja vu to the old Arrow and Flash threads where trying to get people to even slightly acknowledge issues about the shows -- issues that everyone mostly concedes to in retrospect -- felt like pulling teeth at the time of airing.
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Apr 5, 2021 04:30
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BrianWilly posted:Seriously? Thanos had killed half the universe. It would be weird if Thor didn't kill him. Comparing that to firebombing a bunch of warehouse employees is like...I'm sorry, but I don't know where people's heads are sometimes. We don't have to have to defend TV shows this hard. Covid's made people antsy.. let them have their outlet!
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Apr 5, 2021 04:32
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Bust Rodd posted:IIRC they added him murdering his girlfriend and being really mean to the old ladies in a rewrite because, basically, people didn’t understand how he was a bad guy by wanting Black people to have weapons and fight back in focus testing Killmonger's plan is to just replace imperialism with more imperialism but yeah that's a little too subtle for more people to grok so 
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Apr 5, 2021 05:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:Killmonger's plan is to just replace imperialism with more imperialism but yeah that's a little too subtle for more people to grok so It was literally Reverse Uno Card imperialism. Might as well have called it the "Nuh'uh, you!" Revolution.
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Apr 5, 2021 07:30
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Why would people like Erik? Well it’s an attractive actor who gets cool lines in dresses in a saiyan costume, but real. He’s one of a few people with an African-American dialect instead of Wakandan, which makes him the American guy and therefore sympathetic. Most of the “he’s a bad guy, really“ stuff is from a CIA agent. The scene where he blows up in Muzeum is before we associate him with the story, there’s a lot of time before we see him do this and him coming on screen again. It’s kind of a reset. He kicks the protagonist’s rear end in a fair fight. He has a cool nickname, much cooler than “Obediah.” It’s better to monger kills than iron. They also give him a cool ending, tying him to the AA diaspora. He doesn’t recant what he did, only that he lost, and he lost because in his mind, African Americans don’t get a fair shake, even from Africans. Interestingly, Chadwick changed the line. Originally Eric wanted to be buried in Wakanda.
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Apr 5, 2021 07:44
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Killing a helpless enemy is totally in line with notable Marvel villains, such as Thor
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Apr 5, 2021 07:51
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Cage Kicker posted:Killing a helpless enemy is totally in line with notable Marvel villains, such as Thor Thor murders so many, everyone in his movies do.
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Apr 5, 2021 08:13
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Golden Bee posted:Why would people like Erik? I mean yes if you literally do not process anything you hear in the film even a little anyone can be sympathetic. Even the guy who says, himself, unambiguously, that he wants to do a British Empire.
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Apr 5, 2021 08:35
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live with fruit posted:There's two levels of good Marvel villlains: well written characters with interesting motivation (Thanos, Killmonger) and characters played by great actors who can elevate anything (Stane, Hammer, Hela, Agatha). I agree with this and my list was deliberately the former (with a question mark over Ultron because I think there's a case Spader is doing a lot of elevation).
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Apr 5, 2021 09:42
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BrianWilly posted:I'm just getting a serious case of deja vu to the old Arrow and Flash threads where trying to get people to even slightly acknowledge issues about the shows -- issues that everyone mostly concedes to in retrospect -- felt like pulling teeth at the time of airing. My issue isn't with the criticism of what actually happened so much as the way people have been taking what they actually saw and nostradamusing what is now going to follow it, along with the reasoning behind why they now expect those things and the entirely meta nature of those predictions. "Karli did a bad and that makes me concerned that they might be going in a direction that ends with the Flag Smashers be Whataboutism'd into a condemnation of Revolutionary Movements in favor of a message about the righteousness of the Neo-Liberal Status Quo," is a completely fair worry/critique to share. What's less fair is the way people are leaping to the assumption that that is absolutely going to happen because Disney Loves Capitalism and then going back and misreading previous MCU themes to try and prove that the MCU is a calculated assassination of leftist ideals and thus that leap is the safest bet, especially when its in total defiance of the rest of the text of this show as seen thus far.
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Apr 5, 2021 09:44
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BrianWilly posted:Seriously? Thanos had killed half the universe. It would be weird if Thor didn't kill him. Comparing that to firebombing a bunch of warehouse employees is like...I'm sorry, but I don't know where people's heads are sometimes. We don't have to have to defend TV shows this hard. The whole point was that Thor didn't go for the head in Wakanda because Thanos killed his brother and best friend and Thor wanted revenge. And when he did cut Thanos' head off, it was more about his own failure than it was avenging all the people Thanos killed. And it was so violent that it shocked Rocket, who's not exactly a moral compass. Really, Thor is a good comparison for Karli. They both lashed out violently after personal loss in a way that shocks their teammates. It was also a jumping off point for a big character arc for Thor and FAWS has three episodes left to deal with Karli so maybe it's too early to just write the show off.
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Apr 5, 2021 11:14
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We are exactly halfway through the series so episode 4 is either gonna be nuclear powered awesomeness or it’s gonna be spinning its wheels.
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Apr 5, 2021 11:18
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Bust Rodd posted:We are exactly halfway through the series so episode 4 is either gonna be nuclear powered awesomeness or it’s gonna be spinning its wheels. Episode 4 opening: Cap: What do you mean the GRC can't afford building fire insurance?
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Apr 5, 2021 11:44
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LionArcher posted:Ant man 2’s villain ghost person was solid. No she wasn't, that was kind of her thing.
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Apr 5, 2021 12:58
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Strom Cuzewon posted:No she wasn't, that was kind of her thing. 
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Apr 5, 2021 13:00
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Going over it real quickly, I'd break the good villains down like so (and this is admittedly subjective): Good characters Mysterio Thanos Ghost Killmonger Vulture Loki Good actors Agatha Yon-Rogg Hela Ego Ultron Hammer Stane And really, all character villains but Ghost (nothing against Hannah John-Kamen) were helped by incredibly charismatic actors.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:16
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live with fruit posted:At what point does Wakanda go from being a celebration of African cultures to racist? When it feels denigatory and the people being reflected by it feel like its an insult, rather than something to be proud of. I can see why Africans might see it as something as disconnected to their experience, because it is, but when I visited Ethiopia few years ago people were still pretty hype about it. It was Addis Ababa, so ymmv.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:20
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It's just so loving hard to find anything that makes Africans look good and strong, rather than weak and corrupt, in foreign media.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:21
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Boxman posted:And honestly these are just the sorts of problems that crop up in a shared universe. Like, I think the somewhat relatively cartoony handling of the Battle of New York works in a vacuum, just like I think the Zod/Superman fight having catastrophic fallout works (apologies if this infects another thread with Snydertalk). But eventually you get a creator who wants to treat the former with more gravitas or the latter with a less serious face. Welp this explains the weirdness I felt watching Jessica Jones and their hushed tones about the "incident" and the 4 color wham bam full battle spread that was Avengers. Man, that was a strange juxtaposition.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:25
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I know I have seen the antman movies but I can't for the life of me remember "Ghost"
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Apr 5, 2021 13:28
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Collapsing Farts posted:I know I have seen the antman movies but I can't for the life of me remember "Ghost" She's the phase-shifting wall-walking villain from Antman and the Wasp. They never actually call her Ghost but that's who the character is in the comics.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:34
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Lord_Magmar posted:She's the phase-shifting wall-walking villain from Antman and the Wasp. They never actually call her Ghost but that's who the character is in the comics. I'm pretty sure Luis calls her something like "that creepy ghost lady" at one point.
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Apr 5, 2021 13:40
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https://twitter.com/marvelstudios/status/1379056236910366728?s=21
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Apr 5, 2021 14:42
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I hope wilson isn’t just in the first bit and is involved with the whole thing. They seem to have good chemistry. “Everyone know that Loki died at the hands of Thanos. What this show presupposes is... maybe he didn’t?’
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Apr 5, 2021 14:45
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I think that one shot is of a completely hosed up New York There’s probably a lot hidden in those quick flashes of scenes I would imagine
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Apr 5, 2021 14:48
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So is that Loki sitting with Black Widow with what might be the eyes of Thanos in the background? People on YouTube are saying it is lady Loki, but that sure looks like Natasha's uniform.
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Apr 5, 2021 14:49
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drat, Hiddleston is one charismatic mother fucker.
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Apr 5, 2021 14:53
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This whole show is gonna be an explanation about what the Ancient One was talking about.
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Apr 5, 2021 14:53
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Time travel and a charismatic, self-deluded, godlike being as the protagonist? Welp, sign me up. I'll take 5. In seriousness though, I kinda hope Loki isn't self-contained (it kinda seems like it might) so that he can pop up again later on.
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Apr 5, 2021 14:57
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badjohny posted:So is that Loki sitting with Black Widow with what might be the eyes of Thanos in the background? People on YouTube are saying it is lady Loki, but that sure looks like Natasha's uniform. Sure looks to me like Nat circa the first Avengers movie  I don't at all see how you get Lady Loki from that picture tbh.
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Apr 5, 2021 14:58
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Probably some scene with them in the afterlife or something
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Apr 5, 2021 15:00
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That cat had better have a prominent role, Marvel 
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Apr 5, 2021 15:03
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It looks exactly like the planet where Black Widow died in Endgame. I don't know how people are getting "Lady Loki" from that.
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Apr 5, 2021 15:03
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Getting some real Control vibes from the dliberate mundanity of the time cops. Looks awesome.
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Apr 5, 2021 15:17
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