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Timeless Appeal posted:The issue is that "Let the past die" isn't a radical statement. It's a statement coming from a mass-murdering fascist who is the grandson of another mass murdering fascist who instead of actually trying to grow as a person is trying to convince a girl to like him by telling her to just forget about literally everything he has ever done or has actually happened. In the real world, "letting the past die" is white supremacists telling Black people to get over slavery. It's crazy how you've perfectly crystallized the Liberal argument for murdering the planet.
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Apr 5, 2021 11:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Kylo is actually telling the truth here. Luke lied about what happened and did, in fact, attack Kylo out of fear. When Kylo says "let the past die", he is specifically talking about Rey's pathological attachment to the Resistance ideology. TLJ is a criticism of the idea of the hero's myth and how individuals internalize it. It's essentially a reaction to Star Wars's advertising campaign at the time that basically positioned Star Wars as a promised life that you were denied somehow. Luke and Kylo both lie to themselves, or at least others on what happened. The actual truth is that Kylo was a hosed up would be school shooter and Luke considered doing something horrific. Neither can fully deal with their own flaws, so they construct new narratives in which they are innocent heroes failed by the entire world. It connects to Poe not being able to deal with his new lady boss not liking him and is incapable of accepting that she's at worst kind of a dick, but must create a narrative in which she is the bad guy trying to sabotage everything. Finn struggles with his imposter syndrome, blindly followed an older boy with promises of being that true hero, and ultimately tries to kill himself in the end of the movie to prove that he really is that grand hero. As Yoda states, killing the past is foolish and often more about trying to escape failures both personal and historic. We learn from the past and we try do better. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 12:56
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Timeless Appeal posted:The issue is that "Let the past die" isn't a radical statement. It's a statement coming from a mass-murdering fascist who is the grandson of another mass murdering fascist who instead of actually trying to grow as a person is trying to convince a girl to like him by telling her to just forget about literally everything he has ever done or has actually happened. In the real world, "letting the past die" is white supremacists telling Black people to get over slavery. The American analogy is a really bad one. The New Republic and the First Order are warring factions of a bigger status quo which manifestly doesn't give a gently caress about slavery. Timeless Appeal posted:The actual truth is that Kylo was a hosed up would be school shooter I'm so tired of these turbo-Millennial interpretations of blockbuster films. Kylo is an alt-righter and Rey wears a pussy hat, Poe has imposter syndrome and Broom Kid is autistic, ugh. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 14:54
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Timeless Appeal posted:The actual truth is that Kylo was a hosed up would be school shooter So this is how a school shooting goes down, in your mind: -First, the shooter is taken to a remote compound, and trained in the use of guns by a cult leader/teacher who is also his uncle. -The shooter begins to have badthoughts after reading the Bible. -The teacher, detecting these badthoughts, begins to have apocalyptic visions of liberal democracy crumbling, and plots to murder the child. -The teacher pulls out his gun and aims at the sleeping child. -The school shooter wakes up terrified, and shoots up the school in self-defense. -Half the students join the school shooter in his escape. -They all defect to the Soviet Union. ???
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Apr 5, 2021 15:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So this is how a school shooting goes down, in your mind: -Also, later it is revealed that Satan shot up the school.
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Apr 5, 2021 16:37
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Halloween Jack posted:Nah. Kylo is telling Rey that their generation doesn't have to keep fighting battles between factions who only serve the interests of a pampered elite. quote:The American analogy is a really bad one. The New Republic and the First Order are warring factions of a bigger status quo which manifestly doesn't give a gently caress about slavery.
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Apr 5, 2021 16:43
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Timeless Appeal posted:The issue is that for some baffling reason that opportunisitc dictator who murdered his father and killed a bunch of people is given weirdly good faith. Kylo actually directly explains why he killed Han. Han and Kylo loved eachother, but Han loved the Republic more and was ultimately trying to turn Kylo away from his faith in Christ. In this way, Han's love was a weapon that he was using to control his son. (The characters describe this as "seduction by the light", and it culminates in Rey being revealed as the antichrist.) Han had the option to simply reject both the Republic ideology and Snokism, so that he and his son could pursue egalitarian justice together - but this possibility was unfathomable to him. So, in agreeing to stop hurting Kylo, he unwittingly chose to die. Again, that's literally what's going on in the film. But your vision has been clouded by the dark side: Timeless Appeal posted:There's a fair criticism in his line of thinking, but SMG's refusing to actually read a movie made for children. [...] reform cannot come without facing and accepting both the past and current reality. Here we can see your real stance: the movie is for children, and children are too stupid to understand truth, therefore falsehood is true. You then immediately shift to advocating for political reformism (as children do?). SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 17:03
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Kylo's father was a criminal adventurer who hid his trivial and repulsive features behind the iron death mask of the Republic. Kylo killed him out of defiance; he wasn't fooled by Han's dumb misunderstanding of how the Force works. It's very telling to me that when defenses of the ST don't rely on meta-commentary (the characters reflect contemporary political tendencies, the characters are Star Wars fans) they rely on this weird psychobabble about the characters' spiritual virtues and failings. The message you're trying to read into the film isn't straightforward, it's merely glib. What past is Kylo not confronting and learning from? How does this vague "past" confront his self-image? What is Luke confronting and what is he learning? What is Rey besides a pawn of her surrogate family? This is drivel. If this is a movie made for children about the importance of friendship and being nice (instead of mean) why praise it?
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Apr 5, 2021 17:05
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Timeless Appeal posted:The issue is that you're fundamentally misunderstanding this dynamic and what it reveals about the film. And then the end of the movie is enslaved children happily pacified with Official Star Wars Merchandise
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Apr 5, 2021 17:28
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It's all weaselly doublespeak. "Kylo committed an illegal murder!" The Resistance are Contras. "Kylo needs to face the past!" Kylo worships the spirit of his dead grandfather, who is also literally the incarnation of God - and whose appearance had been prophesied for tens of thousands of years.
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Apr 5, 2021 17:28
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Kylo needs to lift me up in his arms and carry me to bed!
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Apr 5, 2021 17:49
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Halloween Jack posted:Nah. Kylo is telling Rey that their generation doesn't have to keep fighting battles between factions who only serve the interests of a pampered elite. Then maybe he should put the war machine down?
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Apr 5, 2021 18:09
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That would just let the pampered elite pick it back up.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:16
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Maxwell Lord posted:Then maybe he should put the war machine down? The films make a distinction between Kylo Ren and Ben Solo. Ben Solo is the genuinely good Christian who believes in egalitarianism, but was badly traumatized by Luke's attempted murder. It's another thing that's in the films, but poorly conveyed: Rey, yelling at Luke: Did you do it?! Did you create Kylo Ren?! Tell me the truth! The answer, of course, is 'yes'. As with Solo, Luke turned this good kid bad because of his attachment to the Republic. But there are still aspects of Ben Solo evident in Kylo's actions. So the big cop-out in the ST is that, after Rey explodes a bomb in Kylo's face and runs off, Kylo is re-traumatized and the Ben Solo aspect of himself just vanishes completely until his mom dies. Fans then use this as proof that egalitarianism is bad and the Republic - which has already completely collapsed - just needs gradualist reform. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 18:23
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Ferrinus posted:That would just let the pampered elite pick it back up. He's no less the pampered elite than they are.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:26
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Maxwell Lord posted:He's no less the pampered elite than they are. I suppose he's 'elite' in the sense that he's the leader of the Knights, but what gives you the impression that Kylo is pampered?
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Apr 5, 2021 18:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:He's no less the pampered elite than they are. Nikita Khrushchev: The difference between the Soviet Union and China is that I rose to power from the peasant class, whereas you came from the privileged Mandarin class. Zhou Enlai: True. But there is this similarity. Each of us is a traitor to his class.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:29
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At no point does Kylo Ren express any interest in you know, actual justice and equality or freeing slaves or any of that. His only interest seems to be killing his mom.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:34
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The only scene we have of Kylo pre-events in the films he's sleeping in some austere stick cabin with a rag for a door.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:35
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I feel like it's a weird thing where people read privilege into Kylo from the old canon Solo kids, who were definitely privileged af, and Kylo's actual case never really gets examined. In that continuity leia was much more powerful and influential, eventually becoming space president for a while. In disney canon leia is a weird militant fringe figure who literally everyone but the contras hates
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Apr 5, 2021 18:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:At no point does Kylo Ren express any interest in you know, actual justice and equality or freeing slaves or any of that. His only interest seems to be killing his mom. I don't see the contradiction.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I don't see the contradiction. What specifically did his mom do that warrants death? "Someone still calls her royalty" (which I will remind you is still like the sole piece of evidence for the whole "The Resistance are aristocrats" argument) does not mean she bears responsibility for all the failures of the New Republic. To what extent is she even in charge? Reminder that justice is not actually brought about solely by killing bad individuals. You have to actually change the system.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:40
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Maxwell Lord posted:What specifically did his mom do that warrants death? "Someone still calls her royalty" (which I will remind you is still like the sole piece of evidence for the whole "The Resistance are aristocrats" argument) does not mean she bears responsibility for all the failures of the New Republic. Well, you're basically asking why Luke plotted to kill Ben in the first place, and why Kylo refuses to join his parents and live as a happy family, etc. The Resistance militia is feudalist because they are not actually concerned with the failure of the liberal New Republic (as personified in Holdo) except insofar as the New Republic was their ally against the Soviets. Leia is an arch-conservative even less democratic than the already-not-very-democratic political mainstream - which is why she existed on the fringes, was relatively poorly-funded, and needed to be publically disavowed by the government. All those little monarchist Freudian slips have a context. Furthermore, the big split between Leia and the New Republic is that Leia is absolutely preoccupied with restoring the Jedi Order as a means of controlling the population. The New Republic was officially secular, and Leia was against that. There's also just the basic point that everyone in the Resistance is dogmatically against Vaderism, despite its widespread popularity. Characters like DJ express a sentiment that is quite incomprehensible to the Resistance.
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Apr 5, 2021 18:56
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Maxwell Lord posted:What specifically did his mom do that warrants death? "Someone still calls her royalty" (which I will remind you is still like the sole piece of evidence for the whole "The Resistance are aristocrats" argument) does not mean she bears responsibility for all the failures of the New Republic. To what extent is she even in charge? Reminder that justice is not actually brought about solely by killing bad individuals. You have to actually change the system. Sorry, is her being the leader of the opposite side in a star war not sufficient? There are lots of bad things about Kylo I'd say but his desire to kill leia is pretty reasonable
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Apr 5, 2021 19:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, you're basically asking why Luke plotted to kill Ben in the first place, and why Kylo refuses to join his parents and live as a happy family, etc. What Soviets? The First Order do nothing remotely socialistic. quote:Leia is an arch-conservative even less democratic than the already-not-very-democratic political mainstream - which is why she existed on the fringes, was relatively poorly-funded, and needed to be publically disavowed by the government. All those little monarchist Freudian slips have a context. "All those" = literally one. By a guy whose actual association with the Resistance is kinda dodgy seeing as they have to send someone to the edge of nowhere to get anything from him.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:06
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Maxwell Lord posted:What Soviets? The First Order do nothing remotely socialistic. They give DJ - who is a homeless ex-con - a huge crate of money for no reason except that he denounces the Resistance. But this has all been gone over many times in the thread. You seem to be arguing that Leia and her allies don't actually stand for anything really - despite multiple opening crawls explaining her motivations, several characters referring to her as Princess (you forgot C3PO), and the entire runtime of two films being about Leia's attempts at contacting Luke and getting him to restore the Jedi Order after Luke - in his official capacity as lead Jedi - tried to murder her son in cold blood.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:13
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The films contain so little evidence of what's at stake in this star war that I can find almost any interpretation credible.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:15
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No Mods No Masters posted:Sorry, is her being the leader of the opposite side in a star war not sufficient? There are lots of bad things about Kylo I'd say but his desire to kill leia is pretty reasonable By the climax of TLJ the state of play is: The Resistance are basically already done. Their fleet is gone. There are vanishingly few soldiers left. They're all retreating to Salt Planet. The First Order meanwhile, has just upended itself. Snoke is dead. Kylo Ren is now, de facto, in charge of the largest military force in the galaxy. He has all the cards in this situation. If Ren is actually this radical justice figure (based on the evidence of _________) he should announce himself as such, as intending not to perpetuate the tyranny of the old Empire or the corruption of the Republic. He should announce to the Resistance that they have nothing to fear from the new Order and if they surrender now, when they're clearly outnumbered and outgunned and have their backs to the wall, they'll be spared and life will be even better under this new benevolent government. (And maybe lose the Nazi at his side, you know, it's sort of a bad look.) Or you know, actions speak louder than words, take the fleet to Canto Bight or somewhere else where slavery and oppression reign and start doing some liberating. Leave maybe one or two destroyers in orbit around Salt Mine to try and place Leia under arrest until the new regime can sort out who gets charged with what. Instead his only interest is in wiping them out, all of them. That's all he thinks to do, just destroy. He has no interest in justice or liberation. He never does anything like that in all three movies. Doesn't free one single slave. Klieg Lars is more revolutionary.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They give DJ - who is a homeless ex-con - a huge crate of money for no reason except that he denounces the Resistance. That's just a charitable donation. Billionaires do that all the time. Do they give anyone control of the means of production? Overthrow any bosses? Free any slaves?
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Apr 5, 2021 19:20
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Maxwell Lord posted:Or you know, actions speak louder than words, take the fleet to Canto Bight or somewhere else where slavery and oppression reign and start doing some liberating. Leave maybe one or two destroyers in orbit around Salt Mine to try and place Leia under arrest until the new regime can sort out who gets charged with what. "The big cop-out in the ST is that, after Rey explodes a bomb in Kylo's face and runs off, Kylo is re-traumatized and the Ben Solo aspect of himself just vanishes completely until his mom dies. Fans then use this as proof that egalitarianism is bad and the Republic - which has already completely collapsed - just needs gradualist reform." -me, a few posts ago. Maxwell Lord posted:That's just a charitable donation. Billionaires do that all the time. The first order is a government. Accuracy is very important.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"The big cop-out in the ST is that, after Rey explodes a bomb in Kylo's face and runs off, Kylo is re-traumatized and the Ben Solo aspect of himself just vanishes completely until his mom dies. Fans then use this as proof that egalitarianism is bad and the Republic - which has already completely collapsed - just needs gradualist reform." Neither Kylo Ren nor Ben Solo do a drat thing about egalitarianism. The First Order don Nazi cosplay, decry weakness, and nuke a solar system as their first act. I don't think you're gonna have a socialist revolution when your subordinates are literal neonazis.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:27
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Maxwell Lord posted:If Ren is actually this radical justice figure (based on the evidence of _________) he should announce himself as such, as intending not to perpetuate the tyranny of the old Empire or the corruption of the Republic. He should announce to the Resistance that they have nothing to fear from the new Order and if they surrender now, when they're clearly outnumbered and outgunned and have their backs to the wall, they'll be spared and life will be even better under this new benevolent government. (And maybe lose the Nazi at his side, you know, it's sort of a bad look.) SuperMechagodzilla posted:The films make a distinction between Kylo Ren and Ben Solo. Ben Solo is the genuinely good Christian who believes in egalitarianism, but was badly traumatized by Luke's attempted murder.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:28
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Again when does Ben Solo do anything about galactic inequality?
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Apr 5, 2021 19:30
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Bongo Bill posted:The films contain so little evidence of what's at stake in this star war that I can find almost any interpretation credible. Same I like SMG interpretation cause is much more interesting than I saw in the movies
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Apr 5, 2021 19:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:By the climax of TLJ the state of play is: You can personally dislike his methods or his motives, but fact is his actions very nearly won the star war then and there save for the rey-us ex machina. I guess I'd say your issue should be with him joining the first order in the first place, not with him doing the entirely reasonable and logical thing necessary to win having joined, which was murking his mom at all costs
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Apr 5, 2021 19:36
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First order is not particularly Nazi . They definitely aren’t Nazi cosplay.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:37
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Rey saving them is 100% not dues ex machina. It’s not even close.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:38
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They're pretty clearly nazi-coded, but there's not much to corroborate it.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:39
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I had this discussion in another thread or maybe this one ? I’m sorry The only even vaguely Nazi thing that I can see is some of the banners in the military formations .
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Apr 5, 2021 19:40
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I just feel that at the very least, having seized total control of the First Order from Snoke and effectively upended the entire previous conflict of the war, there is some ethical imperative to at least cease fire for a few seconds and inform the other side that there's been a complete change of leadership and would they be interested in opening talks with the new, less-planet-explodey regime? If they say no then go back to shooting, fine, just, y'know, the folks on the other side deserve to know who they're fighting against. Hell, the folks on your side should probably know that they're no longer the Empire cover band. Might wanna de-Snoke-ify the regime as it were.
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Apr 5, 2021 19:42
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