|
If British actors in jodhpurs make you think of Nazi that’s fine. As I mentioned you can think of nazis whenever you want based on any stimulus.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 22:40 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 13:56 |
|
euphronius posted:I have no problem with people saying the FO makes them think of nazis. My point was they are explicitly not Nazis, are not cosplaying nazis (someone literally said above “cosplaying nazis) and do not have any nazi imagery, express any Nazi ideas, have no Nazi symbols, uniforms etc. the Movies at no point are saysing the first order are the NSDAP. The movies aren’t even set on earth !!!! It’s fine if you think they are nazis. I don’t know why you do but whatever. A lot of people these days think anarchists or communists are nazis !! It’s a strange world. I don't think the FO are Nazis either, but for those who do, why did the heroes accept the help of one and what does this say about them? There's more to being Nazis than having rallies. The Soviet Union held rallies too, and no matter what you think of that regime, they sure weren't nazis.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 22:41 |
|
garycoleisgod posted:I don't think the FO are Nazis either, but for those who do, why did the heroes accept the help of one and what does this say about them? I don't think it says anything about them, if the alternative is being captured and executed. It doesn't seem that he had a formal clemency deal or anything; it seems like nobody for the Resistance even knew his identity.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 22:42 |
|
Speaking of the spy - the Resistance is so ineffective the only spy they have in the First Order is literally a charity spy doing it for reasons of pure internal politicking. And the only First Order soldier they manage to convert to their viewpoint they literally held at gunpoint until he could be swayed.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 22:52 |
|
Seems like whatever peace treaty the Empire and Republic signed wouldn't allow them to build more world-destroying superweapons and the biggest fleet in the galaxy, I guess neither they nor the Resistance noticed.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 22:58 |
|
General Dog posted:I couldn't remember if that was ever stated explicitly, but if so that's dumb as hell. Again, it's pretty easy to reconcile the discrepancy. How does the First Order conquer an entire galaxy in two weeks? Well, obviously, the vast majority of people in the galaxy had already sided with the First Order. Snoke had already won before these films even began and, with the New Republican superweapons around Coruscant destroyed, it was a simple matter of mopping up small pockets of reactionary sentiment. Remember: under Palpatine's fascist rule, the Rebel Alliance was able to garner widespread support across most of the political spectrum. Even Vader was open to working with them (albeit only on his terms). The Resistance can't accomplish that, because the First Order aren't fascists.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:15 |
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:My counterpoint to this is that while "the galaxy doesn't care about the resistance" is a common interpretation in this thread, imo a far likelier one (and the one I think the film is *trying* to get across) is that the First Order has already successfully cowed the galaxy into submission. Keep in mind, it's only been a day or two since the entire galaxy witnessed the Hosnian system get blown up—a horrific display of power that the old Empire could have only hoped in their wildest dreams to achieve, and one that demonstrates quite clearly what's going to happen to anyone who's not completely on board with the First Order's seizure of galactic power. Germany was a state. They had a large and willing industrial base of support and broad alliances. Is the FO a state? They don’t appear to be. They seem to be a faction within the politics of the republic. It’s not an invasion it’s a takeover. Which means that their power base and economic base are within the republic as well. And they are able to acquire an overwhelming military power by drawing on dissatisfaction within the republic. If they weren’t reasonably popular (and the liberal Democrats unpopular) then why are they overwhelmingly more powerful? Who is supporting them? If the republic is broadly popular then when can they barely manage any popular resistance to an authoritarian takeover? We know the people can be mobilized because they show up to fight Palpatine.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:16 |
|
Whenever a society is portrayed as nebulously "totalitarian" and Just Plain Evil by the liberal hegemony you can bet that they're at worst rival liberals who don't want to sell off their natural resources for cheap or at best a revolutionary workers' state.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:19 |
|
The German annexation was done through political bullying and was largely bloodless. I don't think which makes comparing it to starkiller a little silly. A better comparison is the much more violent invasion of Poland, which did bring France and Britain into war. But since starkiller gets blown up right after, you'd need to be talking about a version of ww2 where Poland manages to cripple the German army during its loss, which would almost certainly lead to even more aggressive action from France and Britain in that timeline
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:32 |
|
TFA places a lot of weight on the idea that the Republic has a fleet that’s big enough to deter aggression on the part of the First Order, but that they keep it all in the same place, which doesn’t seem to make a lot of strategic sense when they’re in a cold war with a nuclear-capable enemy.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:38 |
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:Germany was a state. They had a large and willing industrial base of support and broad alliances. Is the FO a state? They don’t appear to be. They seem to be a faction within the politics of the republic. It’s not an invasion it’s a takeover. Which means that their power base and economic base are within the republic as well. And they are able to acquire an overwhelming military power by drawing on dissatisfaction within the republic. The FO is the remnants of the Empire that fled into the Unknown Regions. They're very explicitly outside of the Republic's military and political structure, and have grown by expanding into worlds on the border regions, strip-mining them for resources, and conscripting children into the military. (This is pretty much all stated in the films). Outside of the films, it's said that the Republic deliberately demilitarized after the Empire was defeated, and resisted remilitarizing out of fear of provoking the First Order outside of some factions secretly supporting the paramilitary Resistance. it's very weird though to assert that the Republic lost because they weren't very popular, as though how popular a government is has anything to do with how successful they are militarily.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:39 |
|
General Dog posted:TFA places a lot of weight on the idea that the Republic has a fleet that’s big enough to deter aggression on the part of the First Order, but that they keep it all in the same place, which doesn’t seem to make a lot of strategic sense when they’re in a cold war with a nuclear-capable enemy. the sequels are in general extremely dumb, particularly when it comes to anything approaching strategy or tactics
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:40 |
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:it's very weird though to assert that the Republic lost because they weren't very popular, as though how popular a government is has anything to do with how successful they are militarily. The strongest evidence that the Republic is unpopular is that we never see a soul speak a good word about it or verbally mourn its loss across the three movies, which includes a lot of time spent with people who were central to its founding.
|
# ? Apr 5, 2021 23:44 |
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:The FO is the remnants of the Empire that fled into the Unknown Regions. They're very explicitly outside of the Republic's military and political structure, and have grown by expanding into worlds on the border regions, strip-mining them for resources, and conscripting children into the military. (This is pretty much all stated in the films). Outside of the films, it's said that the Republic deliberately demilitarized after the Empire was defeated, and resisted remilitarizing out of fear of provoking the First Order outside of some factions secretly supporting the paramilitary Resistance. None of this is actually in the movies. If the FO is an external threat then why is the resistance being funded under the table to oppose them? Nation states with militaries don’t need plausible deniability when it comes to repelling invasions. The resistance only makes sense as a friekorps style militia carrying out proxy battles against political opponents.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 00:19 |
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:None of this is actually in the movies. my dude have you never heard of the Flying Tigers
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 00:24 |
|
countries deciding "well we don't want all out war but we'll happily throw guns and men under the table at a group who's already fighting them with plausible deniability" goes back literal centuries. Russia is doing it in Ukraine right now!
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 00:27 |
|
So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War? If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this? Assuming that we take for granted that all of these things that aren’t in the movies are true...why do they need to fight a proxy war? If going to war with the FO is so politically fraught that the republic has to hide their true intentions doesn’t that imply that the general populace does not view the FO as a threat and would rather co-exist with them? YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Apr 6, 2021 |
# ? Apr 6, 2021 00:34 |
|
Star Wars has a weird political situation where the galaxy is made up of hundreds of planetary nation-states under roughly centralized control from Coruscant. When we talk about "the New Republic", this is effectively synonymous with the galaxy itself. Confusingly, the two dominant political parties within the New Republic are the First Order and the New Republican Party. The First Order has overwhelming popular support, but the New Republicans are evidently allowing all manner of gerrymandering and voter suppression, on top of the off-books paramilitary operations.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:03 |
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War? If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this? there are very easy answers to all these questions and you're being deliberately obtuse. quote:So we’ve moved on from the FO are Nazis to the FO are the USSR and we’re in a Cold War? The FO can represent multiple things, but the USSR/US don't have a monopoly on Cold Wars. See: India/Pakistan, or Iran/Saudi Arabia. (And for the record, a "cold war" between the FO and NR is what's explicitly described outside the films, as early as the pre-release marketing for TFA IIRC) quote:If the resistance are there to fight a proxy war then on whose behalf are the ostensibly fighting? The Flying Tigers were in theory defending China. Who is the resistance nominally defending if not the republic? Who is the third party in this? There doesn't need to be a third party. Pakistan for example has supported numerous militant groups for years as part of its long-running conflict with India, several of which have directly attacked the Indian military or even Indian civilians (Such as the 2008 Mumbai attacks) quote:Assuming that we take for granted that all of these things that aren’t in the movies are true...why do they need to fight a proxy war? If going to war with the FO is so politically fraught that the republic has to hide their true intentions doesn’t that imply that the general populace does not view the FO as a threat and would rather co-exist with them? "Not being willing to go to war" and "views the opponent as a threat" are not mutually exclusive positions. As mentioned above, Pakistan and India hate each other and have even sponsored terrorist attacks against each other, but all-out war would be so destructive and ruinous that neither side (As of yet) has been willing to do so. Back during the 1930s, there were some politicians who opposed rearmament over fears that it would provoke conflict with the growing Nazi Germany. It's fairly straightforward to assume that the Republic as a whole was unwilling to go into direct conflict with the FO, much as France was unwilling to go to war against Germany in 1937-38. The Resistance was thus created and funded as an organization that could more directly confront the First Order without the New Republic entering into all-out war, and then became the only sizeable military resistance to the FO when the Republic government was wiped out by the decapitation strike.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:07 |
|
Finn wants to get to the outer rim to escape the FO, which seems like a weird choice if the FO is coming from outside the galaxy and raiding border worlds.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:16 |
|
The First Order is Taiwan with North Korea’s swag
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:19 |
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:Finn wants to get to the outer rim to escape the FO, which seems like a weird choice if the FO is coming from outside the galaxy and raiding border worlds. The Unknown Regions are in the Star Wars galaxy, they're just the (mostly) unexplored part of it: General Dog posted:The First Order is Taiwan with North Korea’s swag ...This comparison works surprisingly well
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:21 |
|
Which restaurant made that map, I will never bow to dictates of the burger king
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:57 |
|
What would keep explorers from expanding to almost 50% of the ‘left’ side of the galaxy and not the ‘right’?
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 01:59 |
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Stuff There are good reason why these things happen in the real world, but Star Wars doesn’t exist in the real world. We don’t have a single one world Republican government and it’s literally impossible to imagine a rogue state somehow becoming the most powerful military entity in the world without anyone noticing. Saying “ah, well it’s like India and Pakistan” elides a whole lot about why India and Pakistan are that way including partition, the Cold War, and substantial entanglement with other countries. If the world was just India and Pakistan and India was taking over Pakistani territory and conscripting their populace into the army and harvesting their natural resources I think we’d probably have a hot war.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 02:00 |
|
The films make reference to planets that were not part of the former (but not capital-O Old) Republic such as Kamino, and to planets that at least tried to remain independent of the Empire such as Bespin. Nothing about the sequel-era Republic's membership is attested in the films proper that I can recall, except that Exegol is uncharted. The First Order operates in a region of space where they are able to use military force to expropriate materiel and conscript troops with impunity, suggesting that their fleet is operating either outside of the Republic's territory or without its knowledge. Here's what I want to know: was Snoke a Palpatinist? Not openly, I suspect.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 02:14 |
|
A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 02:46 |
|
sponges posted:A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic But that would be boring, you don’t want the audience to be bored do you?
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 02:48 |
|
sponges posted:A lot of this confusion could have been cleared up with a scene in the Senate of the republic
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 03:54 |
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:What would keep explorers from expanding to almost 50% of the ‘left’ side of the galaxy and not the ‘right’? Just goes to show how Right-Wing the Galaxy Far Far Away really is Lack of safe hyperspace routes and interest are the most likely candidates, although ol' Sheev made some inroads with the help of Thrawn, which helped the Imperial Remnant flee there to become the First Order
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 03:57 |
|
Isn't Thrawn chillin' with some space whales or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdsTCUybeU
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:08 |
|
The movies don't just neglect to but clearly actively, desperately avoid setting up any broader stakes and context.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:11 |
|
The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:15 |
|
Bongo Bill posted:The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut. It adds context to the shot of the woman watching the Starkiller lasers approach from ground level - they could've just had the city skyline slowly turn red before the planets get iced rather than a grounds-eye view (or shoot it from an angle that focuses on more than a single person) First time I saw TFA, I wondered if that woman was important - sorta like how TLJ has the female A-Wing pilot, and ROS had the random dude that knows about the Sith
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:28 |
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:The movies don't just neglect to but clearly actively, desperately avoid setting up any broader stakes and context. While folks have been saying this a lot, pure ideology is impossible. It doesn't make for a compelling story at all, obviously, but it is very possible to puzzle through what's going on. As with the discovery that Tatooine, Jakku, and the site of Luke's cult compound are all the same planet, I've actually found that there are a lot of elegant - if counterintuitive - solutions.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:37 |
|
Bongo Bill posted:The scene in which the political circumstances of The Force Awakens were presumably established was cut. Vinylshadow posted:It adds context to the shot of the woman watching the Starkiller lasers approach from ground level - they could've just had the city skyline slowly turn red before the planets get iced rather than a grounds-eye view (or shoot it from an angle that focuses on more than a single person) Honestly that would have been the biggest mystery box of a movie that was entirely setting up mystery boxes.
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 04:53 |
|
Those planets are awfully close to each other. Are they actually moons of a gas giant?
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 05:12 |
|
The United States posted:Wasn't there a cut scene where Leia says that all of the politicians who died on Hosnian/NotCoruscant hated her anyway? I think this is it, there's not much though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLbk4F1P2Q
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 05:15 |
|
They should have just sampled leia saying "i dont care" in that vid for all her lines in ROS
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 05:35 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 13:56 |
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:I think this is it, there's not much though: Ingmar terdman posted:They should have just sampled leia saying "i dont care" in that vid for all her lines in ROS
|
# ? Apr 6, 2021 05:53 |