|
thrawn527 posted:It's the act of anyone who can reproduce. In that souls are merely emergent properties of certain incredibly complex systems, yes In religious terms, not necessarily
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 20:39 |
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:The only reason she didn't resolve it personally is probably because they couldn't contrive it in the script. So, uh... Saru's the next best thing to a main character, Culber's had some screentime and Adira's the new Wesley of the show so we've gotta get them in somehow... *scribbles notes* I know it’s an unfounded meme at this point, but Martin-Green’s contract has to have some wicked “I am the beginning and end of all plot arcs” clause in it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:20
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:I know it’s an unfounded meme at this point, but Martin-Green’s contract has to have some wicked “I am the beginning and end of all plot arcs” clause in it. One of the most damning things of Discovery is how fast it falls apart any time it has to go outside of Burnham for story because suddenly the show wants you to care about what've been functionally background scenery for 10-20+ episodes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:34
|
|
|
Just finally making her properly Captain was probably the right move if they're going to keep focus on her, at least now the focus will centre on her naturally without them having to come up with contrived ways to make her critical.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:36
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Just finally making her properly Captain was probably the right move if they're going to keep focus on her, at least now the focus will centre on her naturally without them having to come up with contrived ways to make her critical.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:47
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Yes even though she is probably the person least qualified to hold that position and does not have the discipline to do it either It's not just that, all of her stories have been about putting her in conflict with authority. Once you don't have that storyline (unless you just escalate) what is there to her?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 15:04
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:It's not just that, all of her stories have been about putting her in conflict with authority. Once you don't have that storyline (unless you just escalate) what is there to her? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 15:06
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:There are two possibilities: If souls existed, nothing changed. New body, old soul, so what. If souls are a magic thingy that somehow contains the information that makes up your previous body and mental state as to provide a copy to the new body... still a new thing. What happens when you take a soul and put it in someone else's body, do they become one soul, or does Tuvix have two souls? Are we sure souls have any value, or are they just intangible parasites feeding on the life experiences of living beings? Picard is dead and they mashed an altered copy of some of the memory data from his corpse (temporarily stored and altered in a quantum simulation, along with a reconstructed-simulation) of Data into a new body meant for someone else, but they instead used it to non-consensually make a copy of the dead. Picard died when he died. Copy-of-Picard was born when they cobbled together harvested memories and put it in a framework for consciousness in the sim and then transferred that consciousness to the golem. Stop erasing Artificial Picard, treat him how he would want to be treated, which happens to be "being treated as if I were Picard as I was created to believe." So, to his face, we treat him like Picard but make no mistake, the Picard we saw in TNG is dead regardless of how many copies are created. Should probably also write some laws to prevent this sort of nightmare poo poo from happening against people's wills and being abused.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
Khanstant posted:Picard died when he died. Oh word? The core of your argument is a tautology. Well I say "Picard" is a mental state of becoming and extant roboPicard has full continuity of experience and has every valid claim to being actualPicard
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 16:58
|
|
|
Khanstant posted:Should probably also write some laws to prevent this sort of nightmare poo poo from happening against people's wills and being abused. No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged The Bloop posted:Oh word? Oh cmon its same argument as with transporters. Body with consciousness just closes eyes, consciousness shuts down and never comes back. New body opens eyes and, retaining all memories and short term memory, thinks that consciousness transferred. No one will ever know because original consciousness is dead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:02
|
|
|
"new consciousness" is a distinction without a difference A linguistic trap caused by our lack of experience and understanding
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:05
|
|
|
Erulisse posted:No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!" She finally shut me up by saying, "How do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep? You close your eyes, you fall asleep. Maybe you die and the you that wakes up is a new you?" It shut me up...but also made me terrified to go to sleep that night.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!" Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed. ...god dammit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
I always appreciated how The Prestige was like "well actually there is a plausible explanation for the trick but we're not using it, in favor of an elaborate plot device that is both fantastical and deeply hosed up"
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!" The physical body is still there. The brain is still working and electric impulses are still there. When physical body is deconstructed into energy and then reconstructed its whole other thing, much like with transferring electric impulses of human brains into a positronic construct. Brain, even for a slight moment, stops doing impulses. The consciousness interrupts. ps yeah prestige done it gracefully and cool
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
Erulisse posted:No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged What do you mean? I'm saying on your driver's license, got a box for organ donor, now add one for "copy my consciousness from my corpse into a new body achieving some kind of immortality." The previous consciousness isn't just dead, it's gone, at least from a linear forward-only time perspective. Did they disintegrate Picard's corpse? Could others make copies of him, could something electrify the body in some way to temporarily refire the neurons composing what was once Picard? Anyway, Picard dies. A copy is harvested from corpse, copy uploaded into quantum simulation. If you believe this is one contiguous Picard, he is now having a true afterlife experience, new experiences and changes from any had in his pre-corpse life. The Bloop posted:"new consciousness" is a distinction without a difference I don't agree there is no difference, consciousness isn't just memories, it isn't stored just in the There is lots of ??? room about consciousness and media isn't beholden to scientific understanding of this poo poo over time, maybe copying consciousness IRL would be basically harmless to the point of it just being inert, maybe we'd discover every consciousness ends up being the exact same way given the same body or set of memory parameters, who knows. How do y'all figure about Jesus? Picard dies, for picard-contiguiousers he killed someone in the afterlife, then was resurrected in a new body that kind of shows off the glory of Jesus' creator. When Jesus dies, decomposes a little, spends 3 days raising hell in actual hell, then is resurrected and is letting people fingerbang his crucifixion wounds and making em babble at the sight of him and all that -- I can see that being the same Jesus, I think it is meant to be the same body all along, so perhaps a few days decomposition, plus the wounds from cross, but IIRC the scifi that resurrects him does so in the same body, not a copy or a new thing god made to put Jesus' post-resurrection consciousness into, but at the same time the new body did seem to have new properties but possible just more of a visual effect filter for human mortals to see. Few times in previous seasons seeing divine beings directly could sometimes be hazardous or require specific precaution, maybe when Jesus turned the magic up to 11 after self-resurrecting (consensually too, bible definitely gets points over Picard for making Jesus choice to ressurrect be his own choice*, they talked about it a bunch, let others give feedback, very healthy approach in that regard). *unless it wasn't since it could've been god or holy ghost's choice? bible unclear about the specifics of this arrangement
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:39
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Look, if going to bat for the Maquis is a dividing line between having a soul or not, then fuckin' put me down under the soulless minions of orthodoxy. thrawn527 posted:Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
The philosophical issues raised by the transporter were best explored by a Canadian cartoon from 1990. Well worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Be_(1990_film)
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:48
|
|
|
I hope Picard is like that episode of What We Do In The Shadows where the vampires all meet their ghosts since they are all technically dead, then Picardobot is now being hounded by Q and Ghost Picard who can't go to Sto-vo-kor until the robot part of his soul also dies. Will and Tom Riker each have 50% of the original Will Riker's soul and they must be merged together Tuvix style or else he when he goes to Sto-vo-kor with Deanna and their dead son, he'll be transparent and ghostly. Of course, Riker has a problem anyway as Tom Riker is bound for Gre'thor having failed to die honorably in battle and now sitting around in Cardassian jail until Lower Decks or someone saves him. This is why I recommend not getting turned into transporter twins.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 17:51
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:The philosophical issues raised by the transporter were best explored by a Canadian cartoon from 1990. Well worth a watch. Oh god, I remember watching this when I was a kid, and thinking about it every time this discussion comes up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
If i put you through a blender that blended you as fine a puree that is physically possible, had that puree run through a high pressure pipeline to another location where another machine reconstructed the puree back into yourself, would that be more or less preferable to a Trek transporter? Or The Prestige transporter even?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
It was splitting into multiple copies ala Doll House or Altered Carbon that really got me on the whole consciousness bit. I always did appreciate that in the latter, the guy sent his copy off to orgy land while he took on the suicide mission. ... So far as he knew.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:31
|
|
|
The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kUVmDJ1zB0
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
Look I'm just a doof shitposting in a star trek thread on a comedy website so take it for what it is I agree with you that our understanding of gut bacteria (and the fact that a human gut has more neurons than an entire cat brain!) have made the whole brain-in-a-jar thing a lot less plausible, but lets posit that given a sophisticated enough device, like a transporter, or Quark's holosuite+DS9's main computer, all the states that are relevant to a human consciousness can be duplicated or stored or simulated or whatever. Nobody really knows what all consciousness is and nobody really knows yet if time is truly continuous or granular/discrete/quantized. For the sake of a thought experiment lets just assume that some smallest quantumfemtoplanckinterval exists and I'm just going to call it a tick. The Prestige kills you idea: Tick 1: Person A is on the platform Tick 2: Person B is on the other platform and person A goes bye bye The transporter kills you idea is the same with a different mechanism. I think consciousness duplication is more like this: Tick 1: Person A is on Platform1 Tick 2: Person A is on Platform 1 and Person A is on platform 2 Tick 3: Person B is on Platform 1 and Person C is on platform 2 (or call it Persons Aa and Ab or whatever you like) At that moment (Tick 2) both consciousnesses have an equal claim at being the original consciousness. After, both still have equal claims at being (descended from) A, just not at being each other because their experiences diverge. So I suppose in some sense the duplicator would still kill you if you care about the label "A" but there isn't anyone who died, there are just two people now. There is no meaningful loss of consciousness to worry about. The question "which one is YOU?" is malformed and based on false pretenses. This would obviously cause no end of legal and moral questions if it could really happen (jail 2 men for 1 crime?. property rights, contracts, etc) In summation, Tuvix was murdered and I need to go lie down.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
Chubby Henparty posted:It was splitting into multiple copies ala Doll House or Altered Carbon that really got me on the whole consciousness bit. I always did appreciate that in the latter, the guy sent his copy off to orgy land while he took on the suicide mission. In the book House of Suns they take this to the extreme. There are characters who clone themselves into a thousand copies of themselves (not knowing which is original) and set off to explore and experience the galaxy (there's no FTL in this setting, they sleep through travel or experience it relativisticaly slow), meeting at reunions every hundred thousand years or so to all exchange memories and synchronise their experience. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain?  That Gorn has a name
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:I always appreciated how The Prestige was like "well actually there is a plausible explanation for the trick but we're not using it, in favor of an elaborate plot device that is both fantastical and deeply hosed up" Well that is the central point of the film. We are invited to consider whether Angier or Borden has sacrificed more or worked harder to be able to do their magic trick. Both versions are actually deeply hosed up and require enormous effort to pull off. e: identical twins exist and are proof of what happens when one person becomes two. You just diverge lives from that point.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Retrowave Joe posted:The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions. But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
If it makes anyone feel better, there are very few cells that aren't replaced regularly in the human body, so there's very little of the original "you" left for a transporter to kill anyways.MikeJF posted:In the book House of Suns they take this to the extreme. There are characters who clone themselves into a thousand copies of themselves (not knowing which is original) and set off to explore and experience the galaxy (there's no FTL in this setting, they sleep through travel or experience it relativisticaly slow), meeting at reunions every hundred thousand years or so to all exchange memories and synchronise their experience.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain? Yeah, all the Captains are named that way. thrawn527 posted:But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there. That’s true. I haven’t looked at anything else in the Arcade, but it was Star Trek so I gave it a whirl.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
Retrowave Joe posted:Yeah, all the Captains are named that way. Okay, I just meant in response to you saying that there are no "microtransactions". Sure, but there is, you know, a monthly regular transaction if you're not already subscribing to Apple Arcade.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:If it makes anyone feel better, there are very few cells that aren't replaced regularly in the human body, so there's very little of the original "you" left for a transporter to kill anyways. The ship is theseus problem for the continuity of self is a related, but different one from the transporter problem. Theseus at least has continuous uninterpreted operation of the ship. A transporter does not. MariusLecter posted:If i put you through a blender that blended you as fine a puree that is physically possible, had that puree run through a high pressure pipeline to another location where another machine reconstructed the puree back into yourself, would that be more or less preferable to a Trek transporter? Or The Prestige transporter even? This is probably the must succinct way to put the transporter issue to those who aren't convinced why it might be an actual problem. It's far easier for people to convince themselves that there's no break in identity when it's space magic doing the thing. But when you put it down into terms an everyday person can understand in their daily life it becomes more plausible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there. A lot of Apple Arcade exclusives have started trickling out onto other platforms recently, chances are this one will end up on Android devices eventually, or even on Steam, like Timelines and a couple others.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:00
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:The ship is theseus problem for the continuity of self is a related, but different one from the transporter problem. Theseus at least has continuous uninterpreted operation of the ship. A transporter does not.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:21
|
|
|
The ship of theseus may be exactly how transporters work but we can't know that because they work "very well, thank you" and aren't actually real. That and because hundreds of different writers have been inconsistent with even those properties we do see
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
Retrowave Joe posted:The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions. Yeah, I'm enjoying it a lot. Not constantly being hassled to buy the in-game currency to progress goes a long way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 00:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 20:39 |
|
|
In the Disco S4 trailer I think it is Mr. Rhys who dies during their first encounter with the anomaly. I know the bridge set is loving huge and he could be standing off to the right, but you can see Bryce but no Rhys I know this is speculation, but it's from a trailer and I'm reasonably confident.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 00:17
|
|
