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What is the deal with refrigerators and AFCI/GFCI protection?
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Apr 8, 2021 18:55
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SpartanIvy posted:My only issue with putting everything on its own circuit is my breaker slots. I have a 30 slot panel with 4 being taken up by a whole house surge protector and an interlocked generator breaker. Since basically everything is supposed to be GFCI and AFCI protected now tandem breakers aren't an option. Even being liberal with load calculations I don't exceed my 200 amp service so it's purely a breaker space issue. If you have the space to nipple off a sub, now would be the time to do it.
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Apr 8, 2021 18:58
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B-Nasty posted:Say what? Maybe for small, low-wattage countertop models, but most over-the-range or built-in models at an actual usable size (>1.6 cuft) have been at around a 14A nameplate for years. There's a reason why this became a required dedicated circuit, because running almost any other kitchen appliance on a circuit with the micro will pop the breaker no problem. Good point. The standard 1800W countertop microwave oven has come down in current rating on the nameplate, but big built-ins with magic stuff inside can stay at 14A and just cook better. KKKLIP ART posted:What is the deal with refrigerators and AFCI/GFCI protection? Years ago, early GFCIs would "nuisance trip" because old fridge motors liked to backfeed and arc when shutting off. A fridge made in the last decade or so shouldn't do that; a GFCI made in the last decade or so shouldn't do that, either.
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Apr 8, 2021 19:14
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Elviscat posted:If you have the space to nipple off a sub, now would be the time to do it. Unfortunately in the "easy" spot to put it I don't, as illustrated with the frowny face. I would have to go to smiley face route, which would require bending some conduit. 
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Apr 8, 2021 19:45
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You could get some LFMC for that, even SER, if your jurisdiction allows it, PVC would work too, though it'd look a little poo poo. E: man I do not like how that contractor installed that mast, 1 hole straps, that looks like over 3' of unguyed mast through the roof, your soffit is definitely taking the weight of that service mast. Around here it's uni-strut lagged to framing members for support out of the meter base, and back-guying for support over 24", pretty sure those are both local codes though. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:16
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Elviscat posted:You could get some LFMC for that, even SER, if your jurisdiction allows it, PVC would work too, though it'd look a little poo poo. I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't. And I think PVC looks better than LFMC but Id probably paint it if I go PVC. Still not sure which material makes the most sense. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:39
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SpartanIvy posted:I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't. If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps. Regardless of how you do it, hopping that mast is going to look pretty janky. Least janky-looking would be a single-piece rigid saddle bend connecting the tops of both boxes. Back-to-back 90s with a little kick in the middle would be a good masterpiece study in 1 1/4" rigid.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:08
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SpartanIvy posted:I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't. That's awesome, that'll be a big improvement. That's a crappy run to have to make for that sub. E: babyeatingpsychopath posted:If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps. I hate to disagree, but single hole straps aren't adequate to support a mast with a strike on it, no matter what they're screwed into, that soffit's what's holding that conduit to the house right now, and those straps are window-dressing. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 21:14
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps. The small screws barely go through the siding. It's bad. babyeatingpsychopath posted:Regardless of how you do it, hopping that mast is going to look pretty janky. Least janky-looking would be a single-piece rigid saddle bend connecting the tops of both boxes. Back-to-back 90s with a little kick in the middle would be a good masterpiece study in 1 1/4" rigid. Just a 90->22.5->45->22.5->90 degree bend. How hard could it be? 
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Apr 8, 2021 21:14
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You may be able to rent a bender, I think 45⁰/90⁰/45⁰ is your best bet, or 45⁰/45⁰/45⁰/45⁰
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Apr 8, 2021 21:18
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Elviscat posted:I hate to disagree, but single hole straps aren't adequate to support a mast with a strike on it, no matter what they're screwed into, that soffit's what's holding that conduit to the house right now, and those straps are window-dressing. The crappy way it's done as pictured is the standard here. I wish guyed masts were done here - never seen one except when I'm out of town.
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Apr 8, 2021 22:20
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Gross! I wish the NEC was more specific. Here's the local utility's requirements, which seem like a good starting point, but I "grew up" doing it this way, so it's what "properly attached" means to me.  Of course it's prone to abuse, I helped a buddy put in a service over there last year, and the inspector was a total dick, wouldn't let me set the meter in the original location because it was 7' off the ground, City Light then said that was fine, but it would require bollards, which were literally impossible because they'd block a shared, eased, driveway, so we had to run 60' of 2" rigid around the house, then as a cherry on top, he made me replace the RSS's I used to attach the strut to the house with 3/8" lags, even after I showed him the "MEETS ALL CODE STANDARDS TO BE EQUIVALENT TO A 3/8" LAG BOLT" emblazoned all over the box  E: I've also seen too many masts and meters torn off the siding by siding guys, they tend to be more careful around a piece of strut, and will side around it. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 22:42
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SpartanIvy posted:Unfortunately in the "easy" spot to put it I don't, as illustrated with the frowny face. I would have to go to smiley face route, which would require bending some conduit. Can you just move your air conditioner connection, and go on the bottom? 
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Apr 9, 2021 00:27
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Why not go straight up into the attic then straight back down to where you want it? It would be more wire but you could avoid that funky saddle.
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Apr 9, 2021 01:02
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Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time)
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Apr 9, 2021 01:19
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angryrobots posted:Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time) My state has really cracked down on this kind of thing around here. I can't run the line and load in the same conduit to the exterior disconnect (mostly thinking about underground services to trailer houses, which needed exterior disconnects even prior to the 2020 all-in changes) as they are (basically) overcurrent-protected differently.
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Apr 9, 2021 01:43
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Per some quick googling, the electrician concensus that I found is that running back though the meter base isn't really prohibited by 230.7 as you don't have line and load in the same raceway (assuming you run a new conduit from the panel), but it falls afoul of common sense and many inspectors and most POCO's won't allow it. Which is for the best really. Pretty sure I've seen new ATS/Generator retrofits that definitely run line and load in one conduit though, with a nice fresh inspection sticker ready for us to reconnect though. I'll definitely be paying attention to that now.
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Apr 9, 2021 02:59
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I'm pretty sure that the meter enclosure should be considered a "raceway" for the purpose of 230.7 The issue to me, and my take on the intention behind that article, is you specifically shouldn't run fused and unfused conductors together, since a short circuit could compromise over current and fault protection. That also wouldn't really apply to a genset, as those are typically fused at the generator itself, and besides really huge industrial applications, can't provide nearly as much fault current as a transformer off a medium voltage supply.
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Apr 9, 2021 03:22
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I meant the line from the bottom of the meter, and the load coming back from the ATS being in the same conduit... That would definitely fall afoul of 230.7 right?
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Apr 9, 2021 03:29
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Oh yeah, clearly and unequivocally, I've never seen that setup.
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Apr 9, 2021 04:29
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devicenull posted:Can you just move your air conditioner connection, and go on the bottom? Possibly depending on the conduit size I need. It's a real tight fit though because of the brick ledge there. Rufio posted:Why not go straight up into the attic then straight back down to where you want it? It would be more wire but you could avoid that funky saddle. That seems like it'd be a nightmare to route the conduit back around to come out. I can't get that close to the soffit from the attic. angryrobots posted:Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time) In other news I got some 14 gauge conduit strut last night and it just barely doesn't slide behind the mast. After I cut it down to the appropriate width I'm going to try and persuade it with a rubber mallet. It's no more than a 1/16" too thick.
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Apr 9, 2021 15:27
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What about using a tray cable? I believe you could get something rated for wet/damp to be able to use in the outdoor conduit and also able to route in the attic without conduit.
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Apr 9, 2021 16:09
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Rufio posted:What about using a tray cable? I believe you could get something rated for wet/damp to be able to use in the outdoor conduit and also able to route in the attic without conduit. That seems like it'd be just as much work to install since the real issue is it's basically impossible to get near my soffit in the attic. In other news, I got 1 of 3 conduit struts installed. This one was able to span two studs, but the others will only attach to 1+siding because the breaker box is in the way. 
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Apr 10, 2021 02:42
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That one strut is probably an order of magnitude stronger than all three one hole clamps together, and three of them is overboard for that short run anyway. Those meyers hubs are spaced to give you exactly 1 shallow unistrut of clearance between the siding and conduit, you can tell that they had to bend the poo poo out of the cable clamps to make them "fit". E: conduit clamps.
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Apr 10, 2021 03:37
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This is such a basic question it could probably go in the quick question thread, but there's a wiring thread right here so what the heck. What do I do with an unneeded neutral wire? I'm replacing a malfunctioning smart switch with a simple switch, so i suspect there's a neutral wire in there I won't need. I'm seeing "just throw a wire nut on there to insulated it" from brief google searches, but I'm not quite confident enough to follow through without goon approval. EDIT: Also I've installed switches before (although I was going from busted smart to smart,) and I think I know the answer to this, but...load and line are interchangeable for these things, right? I could see where mixing the two up for a GFCI switch could be bad, but for simple switches, I don't think it matters? My plan is to just keep orientations of wires between switches (which should be safe), but I figure I'd ask anyway. Boxman fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 12:56
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Boxman posted:This is such a basic question it could probably go in the quick question thread, but there's a wiring thread right here so what the heck. Load and line do not matter for simple on/off switches. They matter for other types, definitely the smart switches I've seen and will be labeled on the switch itself if they do matter. "Keeping the orientation of the wires" is not a good plan unless you are replacing with identical switches and you know this for a fact. Just verify what's where on the old switch and how the sold switch is labeled. Hook up the new switch based on the wire-to-labeling from the old switch on the new switch because you can't always go by colors. It's best to figure out exactly what wires are what. The most common one would be a white wire being the hot line wire in the switch box on a switch loop. An unused neutral should be treated as you found on google: put a wire nut on it and tuck it away in the box. Motronic fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 15:25
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I tried wiring up my 3 wire (2 conductor and ground) 240v dryer with a 30 amp double pole GFCI breaker and it trips immediately after turning power back on. e: Just GFCI, not combo GFCI/AFCI. e2: I did not think to test it by unplugging the dryer first to see if the fault was from the dryer itself and not the wiring/receptacle. I already swapped back in the normal breaker, so I will test that tomorrow. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 00:37
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I don't think a GFCI breaker will work properly on a 3 wire plug. Keep your standard breaker. GFCI on a dryer is brand new in 2020, isn't it? Is your area already on 2020?
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Apr 12, 2021 00:53
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Rufio posted:I don't think a GFCI breaker will work properly on a 3 wire plug. Keep your standard breaker. Rufio posted:GFCI on a dryer is brand new in 2020, isn't it? Is your area already on 2020?
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Apr 12, 2021 00:56
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SpartanIvy posted:From the instructions it should work just like ungrounded 120v receptacles work with a standard GFCI outlet. You wire up the 2 conductors and leave the neutral empty. Attach the pigtail to the bonded neutral and ground bar and it should be good to go. Breaker or dryer instructions? I'm pretty sure most 3-wire dryers have a 120V control board that deliberately leaks current to ground. I don't see how you'd get effective GFCI protection with that setup, you'd have to connect the neutral to the breaker as well. Like that's why it's an old inferior setup to a modern 4-wire.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:09
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Elviscat posted:Breaker or dryer instructions? That was my hunch for the cause as well, but would it still trip if the dryer wasn't even on? It's a relatively old model and doesn't have any sort of LCD control panel or anything that's always on. Just the old school spin-knob for the timer and a push-to-start button. e: I guess it would if it's using a transformer which is always and forever using a little bit of current SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 01:25
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Making a true 240V drier would be trivial nowadays with switch mode power supplies tbh. Have you tried it with the dryer unplugged yet?
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Apr 12, 2021 01:30
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Elviscat posted:Making a true 240V drier would be trivial nowadays with switch mode power supplies tbh. Not yet, I'll probably try it tomorrow. I had a busy weekend and I'm loving exhausted.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:38
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Motronic posted:Load and line do not matter for simple on/off switches. They matter for other types, definitely the smart switches I've seen and will be labeled on the switch itself if they do matter. "Keeping the orientation of the wires" is not a good plan unless you are replacing with identical switches and you know this for a fact. Just verify what's where on the old switch and how the sold switch is labeled. Hook up the new switch based on the wire-to-labeling from the old switch on the new switch because you can't always go by colors. It's best to figure out exactly what wires are what. The most common one would be a white wire being the hot line wire in the switch box on a switch loop. Thank you! I got it without a problem. Weirdly, though, I have a completely unrelated question for the thread. Hopefully battery questions are within scope. My cordless electric lawnmower - a hand-me-down from my parents, who have moved onto the "gently caress it just pay someone" phase of their lives - no longer takes a charge. Thats fine, its, like, 7-10 years old at this point. The manufacturer doesn't sell OEM replacements anymore, of course, but I open it up and it looks like they're fairly unremarkable batteries:  The mower advertises 12v, 40 amp hour batteries, so figure those are 2 20 amp hour dealies lashed together. And I get to batteries plus, and yeah they have replacements that are almost perfect. Except...well, see the terminals on the replacement? The fact that they're perpendicular and sunk into the battery a bit actually means the wiring provided with the mower doesn't work. In particular, the wire on the bottom there wouldn't reach with the replacement batteries. Obviously buying a new lawnmower to replace some generic batteries is insane. While i'm sure just replacing that wire is an option, i feel like the fail case is "now your lawnmower is on fire," so i've once again come to the thread for help for what I'm hoping is a very simple solution. What sort of wire do I buy? What do I need to do to make sure I don't set my lawnmower/my lawn/my garage on fire? Boxman fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 00:06
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Boxman posted:Thank you! I got it without a problem. Weirdly, though, I have a completely unrelated question for the thread. Hopefully battery questions are within scope. If you pull a battery out, is there a model number on it? Those look like a pretty standard size battery - I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a drop in replacement. I'd probably take one out and bring it to whatever local auto parts store you have and ask them if they sell a replacement. Alternatively, I've had really good experiences with this place - I'd see if you can get a model # or something from battery and reach out to them, they've been very helpful to me in the past. Assuming you have the vertical clearance, I don't even think you need to rewire anything - you can just get some nuts for the ends of the screws, and use the holes on the new battery terminals. If you do need new wiring, that's probably an anderson 50a connector on the right. You can't go wrong with using 8 gauge wire for everything. PS: Don't buy from batteriesplus, they have a crazy high markup on everything.
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Apr 14, 2021 00:55
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Boxman posted:Thank you! I got it without a problem. Weirdly, though, I have a completely unrelated question for the thread. Hopefully battery questions are within scope. Can you just slide the new batteries in with the terminals in the middle instead of on the outsides?
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Apr 14, 2021 00:59
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Boxman posted:Thank you! I got it without a problem. Weirdly, though, I have a completely unrelated question for the thread. Hopefully battery questions are within scope. Those batteries are in series, so if it's a 12V mower then those are 6V batteries. You definitely want to extract them and get any info off them you can, rather than buying whatever and trying to make it work.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:10
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Messadiah posted:Can you just slide the new batteries in with the terminals in the middle instead of on the outsides? See, this is the sort of obvious-but-lateral thinking I needed. That being said, the ones with the perpendicular terminals were a bit close to the edge for comfort (it seemed like a good jostle might short things together - unlikely but I wanted to keep looking). That, and the recommendations for other places/assurances these things are not rare led me to a place that ended up helping me out. I still needed to flip the batteries so that the terminals were in the middle, but they had screw-in terminals so there was a fair bit of clearance. I ran the lawnmower for a bit yesterday and its been charging overnight, and everything is still not on fire, so I think we're okay. Thanks for the help, thread.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:10
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nearly all of the outlets in the upstairs of my house are ungrounded, despite having grounded wires running to them today was finally electrical day in my chores list, which started with mapping out all the circuits in my house hoo boy, what a loving mess The smallest room in my house, a little 7'x12' storage/utility/something room with 4 outlets and an overhead light is somehow on three different circuits Another circuit has the lights for my basement living room, my laundry room, my main floor kitchen, my entry hallway, my porch, and also my dryer Another circuit is the outlet for my washing machine. That's it. Nothing else. gently caress you. I was unable to label the breaker box and instead had to assemble a spreadsheet and tape it to the door because of this mess. But I also have an old-rear end Pushmatic sub-panel right next to it. And a few months ago I managed to trip one of those breakers. Took me a while to figure out how a single outlet in my house had died before I thought to even check the pushmatics. But in tracing circuits today, I found something weird and unexplainable  There is a 50A breaker in my main panel that is powering 4 outlets. There is a 20A pushmatic breaker in the subpanel that.... controls the same 4 outlets Okay, so that 50A breaker must be powering the subpanel, then No, because there's also a 20A breaker in the main panel that is duplicated by a 20A Pushmatic breaker, and these two are independent of the first set How would that even work?? Wire out of main panel directly through a pushmatic breaker and off to the actual circuit? Why ... why would you do that? E: I'm planning on getting this whole thing yanked for a 200A box later this summer, so whatever Also, a photo of these fuckin boxes for funsies  E2: immediately after posting this, I opened up both panels for shits and gigs The main 50A breaker powers 1 side of the Pushmatic and the main 20A breaker powers the other side Alright. Okay. Fine. But still, Why the gently caress would you do that? Sockser fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 16, 2021 |
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Apr 16, 2021 03:26
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Lol That's awesome, that's some grade A wire fuckin' right there. They probably had the breaker for the sub fail and picked up whatever poo poo to fix it at the hardware store, with no idea what they're doing. Also, man pushmatic panels are great, in an era of Zinsco and FPE they were solidly built, and the trip mechanisms work really reliably
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Apr 16, 2021 05:07
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