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KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012



thats what i figured. only depend on what i can take with me

if they offer in the base salary i outlined ill be happy. and if i hve to work 60 hours a week for too long ill just loving quit! its so simple

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barkbell
Apr 14, 2006

woof
bing bong its so easy!

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed
that's a very normal vesting schedule. the relevant question about options is how hard you're gonna get hosed in the slight chance the company does actually go public or get a big acquisition. the days of regular employees getting gently caress you money are over, but options that are """.1%""" of a billion-dollar exit could be anywhere between a house and not even a downpayment on a house, and an exit for double your company's money raised could be either a nice bonus or literally nothing

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer
Ok so how "gently caress you" is my options.

A year from now it will start at 1/48th a month.

So 5 years. Already been here a full year btw.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



knowing the vesting schedule without knowing anything else isn't all that helpful

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012



what's the other stuff worth knowing? Knowing the valuation of the company and what the denominator of shares is? Something else?

I'm really stupid here, first time giving a poo poo due to first time being in this situation, so I'm asking probably dumb questions

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


Captain Foo posted:

cash, and a lot of it

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


assume those shares are worth nothing. everyone told me that when i had stars in my eyes five years ago and was considering my first startup. great product with their claws in the federal, state, and local governments. major insurers, wall st banks, etc. how could this possibly lose?

i tried to negotiate my starting salary and hit a brick wall but they gave me an extra 25% of equity

that equity flashed into smoke six months ago

you want cash. assume the shares are worthless

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

KoRMaK posted:

what's the other stuff worth knowing? Knowing the valuation of the company and what the denominator of shares is? Something else?

I'm really stupid here, first time giving a poo poo due to first time being in this situation, so I'm asking probably dumb questions

cap table and even then you’ll probably need an accountant and a lawyer to figure out how you’ll be screwed.

you may as well value them at 0 in a salary negotiation

now, if you are getting RSUs that’s radically different from options

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem
Relevant bits are:

- How much of the company do your shares represent
- How much is the company likely to get bought out for
- How likely is it that the founders will do an unnecessary extra fundraising round just to dilute employee shares and get more of that payout shoveled towards the founders + investors
- How does your non-stock comp compare to the market

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



well knowing that you're getting x% is useless without knowing x% of what. if they're options to buy a public stock that you expect to go up, that's money. how much? who knows, you didn't say anything about quantity or value per. options on a pre-IPO thing? again, is this one share per month, valued at eighteen cents or is it one thousand shares per month, each expected to be worth a grand (with a two dollar strike price) on a company that has announced its going public next month?

i'm getting the impression, though, that you should count these options as worth $0, get paid with money, and if the lottery cashes you out so much the better. you'll need to figure out yourself if the options are worth exercising (that is, if the lottery ticket is worth buying)

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer
I have read enough of these threads to know to not value startup equity as anything. Got a raise once we hit funding since I demanded that instead of their intitial thought of "I thought you were ok with just more equity".

Just wondering how common or rude a 1/48th a month vesting schedule is for a key and only engineer in the first year of this startups life.

Because it certainly doesn't feel good.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



i mean it's kinda slow IME, but once again, 1/48 of what. you can't really sensibly ask the question without specifying that

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer

Achmed Jones posted:

i mean it's kinda slow IME, but once again, 1/48 of what. you can't really sensibly ask the question without specifying that

1/48th of not a large amount.

So yeah speed was my main question.

It definitely feels like a gently caress you especially since all of their other actions feel like gently caress yous at this point.

Paid lunches: gone
Moving to new office 1.5hrs away: mandatory
No more wfh: mandatory

A new distinct feeling of a lack of trust in me and my fellow workers.

This is all AFTER we secured our latest round of funding too.

And yes I have an interview scheduled for tomorrow. I am in the process of severing.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


Gildiss posted:


Paid lunches: gone


get out now

Qtotonibudinibudet
Nov 7, 2011



Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

KoRMaK posted:

what's the other stuff worth knowing? Knowing the valuation of the company and what the denominator of shares is? Something else?

I'm really stupid here, first time giving a poo poo due to first time being in this situation, so I'm asking probably dumb questions

they literally do not matter. you should be interested because you think they're doing technical poo poo you're interested in working on and wouldn't easily get an opportunity to work on elsewhere, because you want a lot of autonomy, or you're looking to quickly grow into a more senior role or gain experience in a different area of work

financially you are almost guaranteed better outcomes at a larger company. ISOs in a series A are a gamble at best, and you won't be getting much unless you're coming in as the CTO or something similarly high up. regular old sr dev they're just something recruiting throws into your package in the hopes that you'll be willing to accept less salary and benefits because you think it's like getting in early at google. they aren't.

you wanna gamble you have about as good a chance just tossing money into bitcoin and praying. arguably better since you can cash out whenever.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

PokeJoe posted:

get out now

yeah, penny pinching on food and stuff is an insanely strong signal to gtfo, ignore the equity

i won a really-nice-car size amount in equityland once and someone else here won a valley-down-payment once. its not like, the lottery lottery where the chances are nil nil, but its not equal in expectation value to tech major rsus

the unicorns who are going and trying to become tech majors will try to make equivalent total comps happen tho, even if they will mostly fail. getting junior plutocrat rich happens for like 7 peeps at a multiple billion dollar company

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Apr 8, 2021

Doccykins
Feb 21, 2006

Gildiss posted:

Paid lunches: gone
Moving to new office 1.5hrs away: mandatory
No more wfh: mandatory

After the last 12 months any company who doesn't allow wfh as at least an option when the change to make it the norm has happened is just on a power trip

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
In the last 3 months, I've been contacted by 5 different peeps recruiting for PureStorage. I am running out of nice ways to tell them that I won't be working for company that advertises looking forward to returning to their open space offices.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
i am at 14 contacts and polite refusals given to aws recruiters as of today

really the last 5 havent been that polite lol

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


Gildiss posted:

Just wondering how common or rude a 1/48th a month vesting schedule is for a key and only engineer in the first year of this startups life.

anyways to actually answer your question 1/48th isn’t that unusual. three to four year vesting schedules are pretty normal. a way you can tell they like you is if every year or every other year they layer on *another* multi-year vesting schedule on top of the old one.

sometimes they’ll front load the shares or backload them, others just do it linearly like in your case. it’s not that strange

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice

bob dobbs is dead posted:

i am at 14 contacts and polite refusals given to aws recruiters as of today

really the last 5 havent been that polite lol

i started responding to amazon recruiters with nothing but a link to the most recent terrible news story about amazon and eventually they stopped

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


just sent a huge list of side projects that I've contributed to or intend to contribute to to the consultancy since they want me to assign all other copyright to them

probably should have included poetry and short stories but I guess I can fit that under social media when it comes to it

bit concerned what they'll think about my videogaming habit since I've made mods for about a dozen+ games that I've all listed, then suggested a general "videogame software modifications" clause.

eh worst that can happen is they'll change their mind once they see all that

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

probably depends on which game it is :v:

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


well it's not the porn kind at least

but yeah probably will be very much of a 'WTF is that' moment to someone who doesn't play videogames (which I suspect is everyone looking at the list)

power botton
Nov 2, 2011

tons of people are getting fired and more people are quitting before its their turn to get fired so they're offering every employee options which by my back of the napkin math are totally worthless despite being in that unicorn valuation area. no raises, no bonuses, but maybe ill get an extra 20 grand in 4 years. lol.

my company was just sold and I got to cash out on way more than 6.5 piggies after taxes so its still possible. thats still more like "cool ill probably be able to retire comfortably" after a decade working there than gently caress you rich

barkbell
Apr 14, 2006

woof
so i got this job offer working fullstack react/spring on basically google adwords, but at my current company on another team the senior dev quit the same day i did and theyve approached me with that position.

its some nodejs position where the app is running serveless in s3, mongo for data, and lambda functions. oh and theres a cms frontend written in svelte. this is a terrible thing and i shouldnt even be considering this right?

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


lmbo looks like I've got a job as a consultant

very happy about that, it's probably funny to people here but the ~£50k compensation is way more than I thought I'd get before I'm in my forties

that's pretty well off by brit standards, IIRC I remember seeing a figure that something like a majority of lawyers earn below £39k base, for comparison

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/London/

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.



https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Leeds/

(technically it's remote but whatever)

(also yes that's the joke)

e: even if you look at your link it's heavily skewed towards top companies, even Amazon London is like 60k for L3/80k for L4

it's great knowing high-end peeps at FB and Google make 300k and Palantir/Blackrock/JPM people make 150k and senior bloomberg folks make 100k, but I'm not any of those things

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 8, 2021

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

Private Speech posted:

https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Leeds/

(technically it's remote but whatever)

(also yes that's the joke)

e: even if you look at your link it's heavily skewed towards top companies, even Amazon London is like 60k for L3/80k for L4

london: was the top euro figgieland, now is not euro and prolly not gonna be a figgieland in a bit

leeds: has not been a figgieland for anything in literal centuries

figgielands gonna figgie

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 8, 2021

Hughlander
May 11, 2005

Private Speech posted:

just sent a huge list of side projects that I've contributed to or intend to contribute to to the consultancy since they want me to assign all other copyright to them

probably should have included poetry and short stories but I guess I can fit that under social media when it comes to it

bit concerned what they'll think about my videogaming habit since I've made mods for about a dozen+ games that I've all listed, then suggested a general "videogame software modifications" clause.

eh worst that can happen is they'll change their mind once they see all that

Do what I do and include a giant list of prototype names and vague discriptions of it to also cover anything you do in the future my goto one:
"Cowboy, a network algorithm"

But I throw like 20 or so of these intermingled with real things when I have to sign off.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


Hughlander posted:

Do what I do and include a giant list of prototype names and vague discriptions of it to also cover anything you do in the future my goto one:
"Cowboy, a network algorithm"

But I throw like 20 or so of these intermingled with real things when I have to sign off.

I actually did that to a limited extent, but they want links or whatever for each project, which doesn't help with that

eh it'll work out, everything else looks great at least

either way I've already signed based on vague promises about that list, but I trust them b/c they have like 4.7 rating on glassdoor and based on linkedin most people work there for a number of years

Maximum Leader
Dec 5, 2014

barkbell posted:

so i got this job offer working fullstack react/spring on basically google adwords, but at my current company on another team the senior dev quit the same day i did and theyve approached me with that position.

its some nodejs position where the app is running serveless in s3, mongo for data, and lambda functions. oh and theres a cms frontend written in svelte. this is a terrible thing and i shouldnt even be considering this right?

it sounds quite bad but I'm sure it could be even worse. I'd consider it only if the cash was right and your other options are worse.

ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?
cis: internal recruiter was like "they liked you will be back with you tomorrow"

i don't know if that means another round or an offer but I am extremely ready.

syntaxrigger
Jul 7, 2011

Actually you owe me 6! But who's countin?

have to do a codility coding test sometime this weekend. I hate this poo poo. Looks like all of codility's challenges are algo poo poo that I probably will only do well with if I have seen it before. Debating on if I should message the recruiter before the test if doing poorly is a deal breaker or just wait and see.

Any goon strats on preparing for the useless skill of the interview coding test?

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

syntaxrigger posted:

have to do a codility coding test sometime this weekend. I hate this poo poo. Looks like all of codility's challenges are algo poo poo that I probably will only do well with if I have seen it before. Debating on if I should message the recruiter before the test if doing poorly is a deal breaker or just wait and see.

Any goon strats on preparing for the useless skill of the interview coding test?

you dont need to ask, doin poo poo on the thing is 95% of the time a dealbreaker. number... is low

interviewing it sucks. i would seriously consider throwing the application away and focusing on sending new resumes out unless youre particularly jazzed about this one

SeXTcube
Jan 1, 2009

Ya, I mentioned getting a bs codility exercise request the other day too. Is it the same 4 problem 2.5 hour limit one? I just ignored it and wrote off the application. It was to some random no name finance company so who cares right?

In general though all you can really do is start grinding through practice problems on hacker rank, leetcode, or one of the other copycat coding challenge website. Then pray that the one they ask you is one you did within the last week. Maybe my recall just sucks, but I've been going back and looking at some of the medium level problems I've solved and there is still no way I'd be able to crank them out within 3 minutes in an interview situation.

syntaxrigger
Jul 7, 2011

Actually you owe me 6! But who's countin?

Steve Jorbs posted:

Ya, I mentioned getting a bs codility exercise request the other day too. Is it the same 4 problem 2.5 hour limit one? I just ignored it and wrote off the application. It was to some random no name finance company so who cares right?

In general though all you can really do is start grinding through practice problems on hacker rank, leetcode, or one of the other copycat coding challenge website. Then pray that the one they ask you is one you did within the last week. Maybe my recall just sucks, but I've been going back and looking at some of the medium level problems I've solved and there is still no way I'd be able to crank them out within 3 minutes in an interview situation.

I think it is only supposed to be 2 problems? I haven't clicked the link yet.

bob dobbs is dead posted:

you dont need to ask, doin poo poo on the thing is 95% of the time a dealbreaker. number... is low

interviewing it sucks. i would seriously consider throwing the application away and focusing on sending new resumes out unless youre particularly jazzed about this one

I am kind of interested. It is DataStax. It seems like a neat platform they are trying to build on top of cassandra. I just get demoralized by these tests. I feel like they are already telling me I am not good enough because I don't know X algorithm to apply to Y brain teaser. My broke brain automatically assumes I am poo poo when there is any sort of gatekeeping I have to pass through. I will probably try it and see. If nothing else it is practice for the next one of these bullshit tests I get handed. I feel like there is no real way to get away from them.

This job search has also got me thinking a lot about how I sell myself. I generally say "I am excited by solving problems" but the lack of a label like "back end guy" or "front end dev" I think puts a lot of people off because they have to think about what to do with me. This makes me think that I need to pick a lane, backend or front end, and I don't really know/care. I just want a decent job that I can grow in skill while solving neat problems without working a poo poo ton of hours a week.

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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
sellin yourself has its own internal structures of credit assignment. "i am excited by solving problems" works great if you can back it up with high-profile famous problems you solved, or like if you drill down on a specific problem you're a maniac about. "im frontend guy" is less risk less reward. you took the risk, you got bopped in the head for it, that's how risks go

your declared preference is lower risk lower reward. label the poo poo out of yourself then

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