|
DandyLion posted:Replay that video but imagine nobody had masks on. It's wank like this that makes me want to sell my kit and go do real sports.
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 18:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
Siivola posted:No. I think you'd get a lot more education out of sparring without a mask on.....
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
How much do people "commit" in this sort of historical sword fighting? I'm presuming they don't, for example, try to thrust the sword through the opponent with full power? I ask because that's the kind of commitment used in combat sports, and it seems like there's just two different levels of intensity here, and I wouldn't mind training both, but not in the same match. Edit: I want to be clear, I'm not trying to argue that MMA is "more real" than historical sword fighting, I just don't want someone to try to "blast double" my hips as hard as they can and have even a blunted steel instrument get caught between us. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Mar 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
Well, it's one of the issues I think HEMA has: It wants to be realistic, but it also wants to be a sport...but it really hard to be both Olympic fencing has totally surrendered to being a sport, kendo has become a stylized martial art, with a strong philosophical aspect + a sports die, but it's really obscure to outsiders.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
DandyLion posted:I think you'd get a lot more education out of sparring without a mask on..... Is that a threat or are you actually dumb enough to spar/compete without safety equipment
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
Nektu posted:Tbh wrestling and swordfighting goes hand in hand in the sources. The throws from the sources that I know offer better control of your opponents weapon than that supplex though. It'd be kinda darkly hilarious to see more often, because I know very few HEMA practitioners who know how to deal with an opponent shooting for a double-leg.  Absolutely don't want to see it though, tourneys already have a terrible problem with people utterly ignoring defense and just doubling instead.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:Olympic fencing has totally surrendered to being a sport, I'm okay with this. The odds of me being involved in a real sabre duel are quite slim; I'm just out to have fun with it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I'm okay with this. The odds of me being involved in a real sabre duel are quite slim; I'm just out to have fun with it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and everyone should get to have their own fun. I think the point is that HEMA is at this weird point where it needs to pick a lane. I firmly am on the side of trying to recreate historical techniques as best we can (even though it's not exactly a skill I'm ever gonna need or use), but the people who want tournaments are more than happy to enjoy them. Although because of earlier comments, I really want to try longsword with grappling + rondels (in a padded area where everyone knows how to fall and we're all just friends learning and also we're all vaccinated). I've done both but never mixed them and I'm curious how that'd go.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 05:28
|
|
|
I think tournaments are important as gatherings, because if you're going to treat HEMA as a martial art, the real test of it is a resisting opponent who isn't the same guy you train with every week. Plus since so many of the arts have fragmentary at best primary sources, seeing others' interpretations is good. On the other hand tournament rules could really use a lot more thought in some cases, as they get geared towards sporting play.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 08:52
|
|
|
Internet Wizard posted:Is that a threat or are you actually dumb enough to spar/compete without safety equipment Of course its not a threat, I don't wish harm on anyone here. I'm being genuine. I've done light freeplay (very controlled) without mask where the head isn't even a target and its shocking how much it changes one's 'kampfgeist' when you don't have the complete assurance of not getting your head hit/injured.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 13:42
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and everyone should get to have their own fun. I think the point is that HEMA is at this weird point where it needs to pick a lane. I firmly am on the side of trying to recreate historical techniques as best we can (even though it's not exactly a skill I'm ever gonna need or use), but the people who want tournaments are more than happy to enjoy them. I know Olympic-style fencing is a sport, not real dueling combat, but I don't think it's completely devoid of use of historical techniques. Here's a 258 year old fencing manual, for example:   Sure, yes, it's a sport. But it's a very old, traditional sport. You can go on Youtube and see old films of people fencing a century ago. A lot of the footwork and techniques have changed, but a lot just haven't. As such - well, I have to admit, I just don't get HEMA. I think you're right - are they out to compete or recreate? Cessna fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 17:35
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I know Olympic-style fencing is a sport, not real dueling combat, but I don't think it's completely devoid of use of historical techniques. Here's a 258 year old fencing manual, for example: O yeah, I feel you and I weren't knocking Olympic fencing at all. (I did foil and epee for years and years once upon a time.) It definitely has some core things based off of real sword-fighting techniques. It's just like boxing or whatever whereby the nature of making it a sport (which, again, isn't bad) means that it side-steps from the "real" techniques, e.g. boxers can use their hands differently because they're wearing gently caress-off huge gloves or epee-fencers doing itty-bitty whippy taps to someone's big toe or whatever. These aren't problems, it's the nature of the beast when you take a combat thing and you want to make it a fun and safe(ish) sport. In a similar vein, that's why I don't really like HEMA tournaments. I like sparring, especially with new people, but my goal is to work on my form and techniques and not to "win" per se. For example, when I was first starting out, I'd pick a couple of cuts or whatever and I'd really concentrate on them and how to apply them in sparring. Is this a good strategy in an actual fight? Of course not, you want to keep your options open. But doing that for a bit helped me get a pretty good Zwerchau. It's a different strokes for different folks kind of deal, and so long as everyone can do their own thing that makes them happy, I don't really care in any direction. I'll be over here reading my 600 year old book in German about longswords and working on how to apply that cause I'm a nerd, and someone else can go out and be competitive. 'S'all good by me. (Although I'd hope we can all be friends about it and some nice cross-pollination or hanging out over beers between groups is Cool and Good.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:O yeah, I feel you and I weren't knocking Olympic fencing at all. (I did foil and epee for years and years once upon a time.) It definitely has some core things based off of real sword-fighting techniques. It's just like boxing or whatever whereby the nature of making it a sport (which, again, isn't bad) means that it side-steps from the "real" techniques, e.g. boxers can use their hands differently because they're wearing gently caress-off huge gloves or epee-fencers doing itty-bitty whippy taps to someone's big toe or whatever. These aren't problems, it's the nature of the beast when you take a combat thing and you want to make it a fun and safe(ish) sport. Absolutely, I think we're on the same page here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2021 20:23
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:It'd be kinda darkly hilarious to see more often, because I know very few HEMA practitioners who know how to deal with an opponent shooting for a double-leg. In the end, sword tournaments will always stay points matches. But I propose this alternative: "catch the noble" mode. The goal is to actually submit your opponent non-lethally so that you can get a ransom. Jack B Nimble posted:How much do people "commit" in this sort of historical sword fighting? I'm presuming they don't, for example, try to thrust the sword through the opponent with full power? I ask because that's the kind of commitment used in combat sports, and it seems like there's just two different levels of intensity here, and I wouldn't mind training both, but not in the same match. Its still completely different than unarmed fighting. Our bodies literally evolved to mitigate the damage that can be inflicted with hands/feet. Steel weapons dont care about that and will just gently caress you up for good. In the end you need to do compromises: make the weapon less damaging (lighter, flexible or just shinais instead of steel) and add protective gear. Doing matches that end with knockouts is completely impossible with swords. Apart from that I guess its the same as in other combat sports: sometimes you do technical training, sometimes you do technical sparring and sometimes you beat the poo poo out of each other (with appropriate weapon variants and protective gear). And imo its important to do it like that: a lot of stuff gets harder to do/needs to be slightly modified compared to slow practice if your opponent actually tries to get the gently caress through your defense. And if you just try to touch your opponent instead of getting a solid hit, you will be slightly too far away. Many techniques depend on correct usage of your swords strong part of the blade (the part closer to the hilt). If you are a few centimeters too far out, some things will stop being effective, because you can no longer displace your opponents sword as good with the weaker part of your blade. Its also historical, at least lichtenauer explicitly states that its important to fence with pressure and intent, from the technical level up to the tactical level. Jack B Nimble posted:Edit: I want to be clear, I'm not trying to argue that MMA is "more real" than historical sword fighting, I just don't want someone to try to "blast double" my hips as hard as they can and have even a blunted steel instrument get caught between us.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2021 21:07
|
|
|
I'd honestly be more worried about concussion, were I to get thrown in my HEMA gear. Fencing masks aren't made to mitigate that kind of impact, especially from say landing on the back of your head getting dumped on a hardwood floor. Part of why I think we're going to see movement towards fencing helms for longsword as well, because they also don't fully mitigate taking a downward blow to the crown of the head. I know I'd be much more comfortable taking that kind of shot in my old SCA helm than in a fencing mask, even with a hard back. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Mar 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2021 07:27
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOgSOXSjthE i went to my first beginner german longsword session on monday and i was really wondering how they approach grappling in a fencing academy with no mats lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 03:44
|
|
|
OK so I'm a sport fencer but that just doesn't seem fair... HEMA does honestly look fun though and I'm sure I'll give it a try one of these days. I did my first comp in over a year last weekend (made possible thanks to us having done some really strict lockdowns right at the beginning of the pandemic) and I feel not quite as wrecked as I was expecting. Then again I got rolled in the DEs once I hit a younger and fitter opponent who realised he could just steamroller me with raw speed. Still heaps of fun though!
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 13:10
|
|
|
Crazy Achmed posted:Then again I got rolled in the DEs once I hit a younger and fitter opponent who realised he could just steamroller me with raw speed. Nature is healing
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 14:00
|
|
|
Crazy Achmed posted:I did my first comp in over a year last weekend (made possible thanks to us having done some really strict lockdowns right at the beginning of the pandemic) and I feel not quite as wrecked as I was expecting. Then again I got rolled in the DEs once I hit a younger and fitter opponent who realised he could just steamroller me with raw speed. Still heaps of fun though!  Congrats on getting to fence again. My long hiatus of reffing is set to end the weekend after next with the NAC in Texas. Very thrilled to get to fly into a state where masks are no longer required.  Also, I'm pretty disappointed at how wrong I was with my predictions about what the national schedule would be; it looks like we'll have a national tourney every month through August or something dumb like that. My division is still not allowing events locally, but most of the clubs have resumed in a limited capacity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 18:28
|
|
|
So, having now fenced Epee for more than 3 months, I'm now obviously an expert on all matters olympic fencing, but...the current state of sabre fencing just seems like complete nonsense to me. I can largely understand (and recognize) the RoW in foil, but in sabre, it is soo marginal that it's largely unwatchable. You go back to say, the 2012 Olympics and it's largely watchable, but the current stuff?. I think that technology has evolved enough that they should try accelerometers in the weapons again and make them actually 'cut', rather than just touch...which would probably also mean they would need stiffer blades. (in order to reliably read the deceleration)... Or at the very least, move them further away from eachother, rather than the 1-step-attack that they have now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:I can largely understand (and recognize) the RoW in foil, but in sabre, it is soo marginal that it's largely unwatchable. That's the thing I dislike the most about sabre. There are too many simultaneous, in-the-box points that are just too close to call. I really enjoy sabre, but scoring and ref-ing is frustrating as hell.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:13
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:So, having now fenced Epee for more than 3 months, I'm now obviously an expert on all matters olympic fencing, but...the current state of sabre fencing just seems like complete nonsense to me. Trust me, hitting people harder is not an obstacle for those saber barbarians. The challenge is that the lockout time is so short it makes parrying really hard without real good footwork — except that requires space that you don’t have off the line. You could increase the lockout time towards foil, but you still have the problem of it being real easy to hit in saber (again, smacking hard isn’t a hindrance) so parrying can quickly become too powerful. Four meters is probably the “solution”, but only if you can stomach being a special snowflake.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:14
|
|
|
dupersaurus posted:saber barbarian New user name plz.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2021 22:16
|
|
|
Wouldn't a shorter lockout time be a better solution? Or am I just not understanding it well enough. Shorter lockout would make parry-ripose more effective, no?.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 02:14
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:Wouldn't a shorter lockout time be a better solution? Or am I just not understanding it well enough. Less. Any touches that happen after the lockout is triggered don’t get a light. Think about : attack-parry-counter (light)-(tick-tick-tick)-riposte (light?). In foil you get 300(?)ms, which is a loooot of time to finish, even against a plain counter, so you can afford to take your time. Saber gets 160ms (recently upped from 120), so you have to be really on the ball to get the light, any hesitation and you’re busted. I think epee is less than both, but yknow... epee
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 02:30
|
|
|
It took me a while to understand. I somehow thought the lockout time, was the time in which both lights would go on. So yes, increase lock-out time and then also stiffer blades It was my intention when I started fencing that I would move on to saber, but I have my doubts now. Also, by far the majority of adults do epee and in many ways it's also the closest to my kendo background...OTOH, I'm also short, especialy by epee standards (5'8"), but I'm also not planning on entering the olympics any time soon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 06:54
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:So, having now fenced Epee for more than 3 months, I'm now obviously an expert on all matters olympic fencing, but...the current state of sabre fencing just seems like complete nonsense to me. Funny you mention that. In Nov of 2019, the FIE decided that accelerometers should be given another go and opened a contest to spur development. (I, legit, hadn't heard about this until I started digging around for the word "capteur.") Are you expecting the accelerometer in the tip of the blade? Last time, it was kept in the grip and served, if I recall, as an interrupter at the weapon socket. Also, the cut vs touch distinction is very much not one most fencers would want to see. Most like cuts with the flat and whipover touches. That press release even explicitly mentions both of those actions as ones that need to be registered. quote:Or at the very least, move them further away from eachother, rather than the 1-step-attack that they have now. dupersaurus posted:Trust me, hitting people harder is not an obstacle for those saber barbarians. The challenge is that the lockout time is so short it makes parrying really hard without real good footwork — except that requires space that you don’t have off the line. You could increase the lockout time towards foil, but you still have the problem of it being real easy to hit in saber (again, smacking hard isn't a hindrance) so parrying can quickly become too powerful. Four meters is probably the “solution”, but only if you can stomach being a special snowflake. Parrying, as a concept, has always been weak in sabre. At the turn of the 20th century, a valid riposte counted as 2 touches instead of 1. Regarding lockouts, it's a very dangerous game to play to make things still fun and exciting. I like the tighter times, because it forces tighter and cleaner actions. A stop-hit in time is allowed to be a valid action, and you don't get hair splitting for attacks in prep as you do in foil. You're hit in prep because one light. Done. I kinda joke that sabre is the easiest weapon to ref, by technical application, it just happens so fast that it seems more complicated than it is. The lockout time is, also, probably a big reason why 2012 looks so different than from Budapest last month, because it was increased by 50 ms. Well, that and on one has been fencing for a year. And, yes, I have seen dustups caused by sabre fencers not trusting the box to have the right timing. dupersaurus posted:In foil you get And it's 40 ms for epee. Also, can you imagine 700 ms for foil? You could chase someone halfway down the strip and still get a riposte! ImplicitAssembler posted:It was my intention when I started fencing that I would move on to saber, but I have my doubts now. Also, by far the majority of adults do epee and in many ways it's also the closest to my kendo background...OTOH, I'm also short, especialy by epee standards (5'8"), but I'm also not planning on entering the olympics any time soon. Serious Q: kendo is a snap decision kinda sport right? Like, lots of slow set up to build towards an exchange that lasts all of a quarter of a second, if that? If so, that sounds like epee.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 07:02
|
|
|
BirdOfPlay posted:Serious Q: kendo is a snap decision kinda sport right? Like, lots of slow set up to build towards an exchange that lasts all of a quarter of a second, if that? If so, that sounds like epee. Yes, it's quite similar. A popular expression is "win, then strike". On the other hand, scoring is subjective...Well, it's not supposed to be but you need: - To have created the opportunity (not just randomly hitting). - Strike with the correct part of the shinai (top 3rd and with the 'cutting' side) and sufficient force. - Strike the correct part of the opponents armor. - With the mind and body as one. - With correct awareness after the strike. The last 2 are the hardest for outsiders to understand and for me to explain, but roughly translates to hitting with a coordinated and intentionally executed attack, with full commitment and awareness. The quality of all this will vary depending on the experience of the practitioner, so what will get you a point in the lower grade divisions, will be ignored at the higher levels. This also means that the referees needs to be more experienced than the people they're judging. This isn't always the case, but with 3 referees and at least 2 of those would have to agree, it mostly works out....(except for major competitions, where they do have very experienced referees, who for some reason *always* perform terribly. The world championships can be terrible because of that.) Anyway..that was a long way of saying, that epee scoring is infinitely more simple. Kendo is also, in general, far more attack-oriented. There is, in principle, no such thing as defending* and it's primarily based on putting pressure on the opponent and creating an opportunity to attack. * You will never be taught parry on it's own. It will always be part of a compound deflect/riposte action. On a similar note, there is, in theory, no simultanous attacks. One side will always hit before the other and in close calls, you wil usually look at who created the opportunity. so in some sense, there *is* a RoW . Confused yet?
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 07:46
|
|
|
Part of that awareness is meant to be being prepared for a strike from a 'dying' opponent, is it not? That's something I wish HEMA scoring was better about, a lot of the tourney bouts you can watch should end in doubles because so many throw away all pretense of defense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 08:38
|
|
|
I think it's the curse of sword sports that they'll always be prohibitively opaque to people that don't do them. There's just not really an easy-mode explanation like "hit ball hard" or "kick ball in goal" to start someone off with.BirdOfPlay posted:I kinda joke that sabre is the easiest weapon to ref, by technical application, it just happens so fast that it seems more complicated than it is. Yeah. Back when I was reffing they tried to make me a saber ref, and I was good for everything except the box, I just couldn't get my brain to read that tight. Maybe if I seriously fenced it I'd have got that feel, but never got around to it. BirdOfPlay posted:And it's 40 ms for epee. Also, can you imagine 700 ms for foil? You could chase someone halfway down the strip and still get a riposte! I wouldn't have to take my time on the attack and worry about being countered! 
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
dupersaurus posted:I think it's the curse of sword sports that they'll always be prohibitively opaque to people that don't do them. There's just not really an easy-mode explanation like "hit ball hard" or "kick ball in goal" to start someone off with. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 15:30
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:It was my intention when I started fencing that I would move on to saber, but I have my doubts now. Also, by far the majority of adults do epee and in many ways it's also the closest to my kendo background...OTOH, I'm also short, especialy by epee standards (5'8"), but I'm also not planning on entering the olympics any time soon. That's about how I look at it. I'm too old for the Olympics, I'm just there for a workout and a chance to do something fun that my kid also enjoys. Sabre is silly and frustratingly arbitrary, but I like the sabre group at my club best, so that's what I do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Part of that awareness is meant to be being prepared for a strike from a 'dying' opponent, is it not? That's something I wish HEMA scoring was better about, a lot of the tourney bouts you can watch should end in doubles because so many throw away all pretense of defense. MmmMmmm, sortof. As with most Japanese martial arts, kendo has a philosophical side as well. Wikipedia actually describes it well: quote:In the context of kendō, zanshin is the continued state of spirit, mental alertness and physical readiness to meet the situation (such as an opposing attack) that must be maintained when one returns to kamae after attacking. It is one of the essential elements that define a good attack So, you can be hit after the attack, but if you maintain correct posture and awareness...it wont count...whereas if your posture/focus relaxes and the opponent follows up and strikes you, then you initial attack will be ignored/waved off.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
Didn't they already try out the closer starts for sabre with the "Russian box of death" thing? IIRC it was roughly whatever distance you get if you start with your back foot on the line, rather than your front foot. I don't think it helped much, though. What I do sometimes, especially if nobody's around/willing to ref sabre, is to agree with my opponent that one us is going to attack and the other will defend off the line at the start of each point (if there's a parry / miss, then everything's fair game again). This obviously wouldn't be good for competition level stuff but does work for having fun at club though. Anyway, kendo RoW sounds pretty interesting, are there any recordings of bouts out there with commentary?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2021 11:25
|
|
|
anyone have any advice they can give me on buying a feder?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 05:13
|
|
|
Crazy Achmed posted:
Mmm, not a lot. Andy Fisher got some 'analysis' videos, but they have a lot of kendo terminology, which may make them a little hard to digest. Quick guide: You have 4 targets: 3 cuts: 'Men' (top of the head), 'Kote' (right* forearm), 'Do' (side of the torso) and 'Tsuki' thrust to the throat. Competitions are best of 3 points, ties go to OT. 'Seme' roughly translates to 'preparation'. 'Oji-waza' = counter techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXoyFsd3bM4 This is for a promotional exam and points aren't counted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVVT_UB1-68&t=124s From All Japan Championships. *In any other stance than 'middle stance', left forearm also becomes a valid target.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 05:51
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:Mmm, not a lot. Andy Fisher got some 'analysis' videos, but they have a lot of kendo terminology, which may make them a little hard to digest. Also (at least here in Finland) pushing your opponent out of the ring is both permissible and gives you a point.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 08:19
|
|
|
Ataxerxes posted:Also (at least here in Finland) pushing your opponent out of the ring is both permissible and gives you a point. Not quite, it'll give you a 'penalty point' of which you need two before before the oppponent gets a point. Also the 'pushing' has to be part of an attacking action, otherwise the pusher will get a penalty point.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:22
|
|
|
Anyone have a link to a fencing dictionary or something similar? Trying to visualize the parries in carte, in seconde and in low prime from the book I’m reading (Swords and Deviltry).
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
ulmont posted:Anyone have a link to a fencing dictionary or something similar? Trying to visualize the parries in carte, in seconde and in low prime from the book I’m reading (Swords and Deviltry).  Carte = Quarte, Parry 4.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:43
|
|