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The FSN servants are all top notch besides maybe Cursed Arm.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:17
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Sasaki Kojiro and Gil are the only ones in base I'd call great. Hercules is nothing in berserker, Saber, Medusa and Medea are boring, Cursed arm exists, Archer is cool but like, cmon can't use him as a hero, Lancer. In many ways F/sn is a game that's good in spite of itself, even zero had a clearer idea of who and what the servants were and what they represented.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:22
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AlternateNu posted:I still don't understand why Rider's NP is called Bellerophon when it's loving Pegasus. I mean, I understand the tangential story link between the name and the creature, but it still makes no loving sense. Just to note, her Noble Phantasm isn't Pegasus, it's the bridle/reins/whip, which is named after Bellerophon because of said story link. Wonder if that means she can't use it for others.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:35
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Gaius Marius posted:Saber...boring 
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Apr 14, 2021 02:59
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Gaius Marius posted:Sasaki Kojiro and Gil are the only ones in base I'd call great. Hercules is nothing in berserker, Saber, Medusa and Medea are boring, Cursed arm exists, Archer is cool but like, cmon can't use him as a hero, Lancer. fam what the gently caress are you talking about
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Apr 14, 2021 03:03
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lol at ever saying zero has better writing than fsn
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Apr 14, 2021 03:09
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I did and would not, I said it had better realizations of it's servants as idealizations of humanities heroes whereas F/SN phones it in completely.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:10
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It's almost like the narrative uses the servants in a certain way to tell its story and not solely because they're cool action figures to slam into each other.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:12
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Unlike my man Urobuchi who definitely does that for like half of them until he's done with them and brutally murders them or in the case of Diarmuid strips him of literally all of his dignity and then brutally murders him. The only ones treated with genuine reverence by the end of it all are Saber, Gil, and Iskandar.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:14
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Your point? Making a series with the premise that humanities greatest heroes of legend gather to fight, and then having half of them be Divine or nobodies is lame. It speaks to Nasu's ability to mature as a writer that he managed to better meld the concept with the actualization in his latter works. Captain Baal posted:Unlike my man Urobuchi who definitely does that for like half of them until he's done with them and brutally murders them or in the case of Diarmuid strips him of literally all of his dignity and then brutally murders him. The only ones treated with genuine reverence by the end of it all are Saber, Gil, and Iskandar. You're letting your hatred of Zero get in the way of my point. I don't think Urobuchi is a good writer, I don't even think he's a passable writer, but he's one who managed the concept of the holy grail war with more finesse than Nasu did on his first pass
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Apr 14, 2021 03:14
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it's almost like a bunch of legendary heroes are gods or part god
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Apr 14, 2021 03:16
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Aurora posted:it's almost like a bunch of legendary heroes are gods or part god They've quite shown numerous other's that aren't divine in the extended works.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:18
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god you're dumb
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Apr 14, 2021 03:19
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Aurora posted:god you're dumb Do you have any actual position to take other than that you dislike Zero and like F/SN? Opinions that I also share.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:24
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AlternateNu posted:Isn't that basically what Blood Fort is? It's just her mystic eyes in the form of a bounded field. It's just she's usually nerf'd by having Shinji as a proxy master, so it's basically never seen at full power. What I’m trying to get at here is that Rider is very tall.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:25
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shes also my wife
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Apr 14, 2021 03:26
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your take about them somehow using boring picks for fsn is bad and dumb regardless of my opinion on zero over fsn the only interesting character in zero is iskandar
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Apr 14, 2021 03:26
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Gaius Marius posted:Your point? Making a series with the premise that humanities greatest heroes of legend gather to fight, and then having half of them be Divine or nobodies is lame. I mean it's as lame as you want it to be. I don't understand why the fact the story does something more with its basic premise than service the very simple perspective you seem to have on it is a negative? If you don't care for it sure, but this insipid condemnation of it for being something else entirely and using its characters to tell the story of Shiro Emiya and his friends is weird? Like the fact that you brought up Archer before and you're like "Oh yeah this character's cool, but come on man he's not..." is really weird because you'd think the fact that it thought outside of the box would be a plus but apparently not? Gaius Marius posted:You're letting your hatred of Zero get in the way of my point. I don't think Urobuchi is a good writer, I don't even think he's a passable writer, but he's one who managed the concept of the holy grail war with more finesse than Nasu did on his first pass I mean there's no hatred. Zero's good and I like several aspects of it, but the heroic spirits representing humanity really feels like a weird take considering half of them there suck and the human characters overall have the actual interesting character drama? Kiritsugu aside who I don't care for but everyone else to some extent has good stuff going on.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:27
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nrook posted:In fairness, it's a tall order to make eyes dramatic enough to support her scenes. It wouldn't be enough on its own to let Rider look down on the other Servants. A Noble Phantasm has to be something that lets the one who has it tower over others, at least when it's at its peak. It's a high bar. Really? Unleashing impressively terrifying magic through your eyes is not exactly an obscure fictional trope, and certainly isn't a foreign concept in anime of all media. Make it a set of huge, flashy eye beams, turn her eyes into windows to a character's worst nightmares, whatever. It's not that hard.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:28
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x-men is going to blow that guy's mind
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Apr 14, 2021 03:37
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Captain Baal posted:I mean it's as lame as you want it to be. I don't understand why the fact the story does something more with its basic premise than service the very simple perspective you seem to have on it is a negative? If you don't care for it sure, but this insipid condemnation of it for being something else entirely and using its characters to tell the story of Shiro Emiya and his friends is weird? Like the fact that you brought up Archer before and you're like "Oh yeah this character's cool, but come on man he's not..." is really weird because you'd think the fact that it thought outside of the box would be a plus but apparently not? Gil and Saber actually both stand out in contrast to this, having their intrinsic characters well woven into the fabric of the tale, Saber just suffers from being blander than an unseasoned potato. Shirou I however think is very well done, one of the best Protagonists of the genre, well fleshed out and explored. Captain Baal posted:I mean there's no hatred. Zero's good and I like several aspects of it, but the heroic spirits representing humanity really feels like a weird take considering half of them there suck and the human characters overall have the actual interesting character drama? Kiritsugu aside who I don't care for but everyone else to some extent has good stuff going on. I'm mostly in agreement with this, I rather take offense to people accusing me of being some Urobuchi diehard out to sully their sacred FSN. Almost all the good of Zero comes out of the basic outline of the war provided by Nasu, and the character's whom I'm sure he had help with. There are other parts that work alright, but anytime you see Urobuchi's actual writing shine through you can tell he's a hack who thinks he's more clever than he actually is. See also Psycho Pass Acerbatus posted:x-men is going to blow that guy's mind Ngl Xmen sucks so much balls, I have zero idea who keeps reading that poo poo. Aurora posted:no one said this It's the implication of your previous post, unless you would perhaps like to clarify instead of dropping one sentence posts? Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 03:37
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Gaius Marius posted:I'm mostly in agreement with this, I rather take offense to people accusing me of being some Urobuchi diehard out to sully their sacred FSN. no one said this
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Apr 14, 2021 03:43
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Imagine thinking Cu is boring.
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Apr 14, 2021 03:45
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In Hollow, Medea gets wiggle ears.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:01
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'Nasu is writing fanfiction about his OCs' Yes. He is. Thats what fiction is.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:05
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also, 'medusa uses her legend to a lesser degree?' shes a somewhat underexplored character in fsn but her entire character and motivation is probably the most tied to her legend of anyone, even more than saber. her sole motivation is protecting a girl who was sexually abused, given monstrous powers, and who, if shirou was a 'hero' in the sense he wants to be, hed have killed upon realizing what she was. sakura's medusa, medusa is sakura. its the entire thematic beat of heaven's feel and its tied solely into medusa's legend. the game never explicitly makes this connection but i think its obvious enough it wouldn't gain anything from shirou going 'thats right... this is just like...' and then a flash to full gorgon medusa or whatever.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:10
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medea is also my wife.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:12
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Apr 14, 2021 04:15
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Medea's whole relationship with her master is intrinsically tied to her fate in the myths?? its like her whole deal??
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Apr 14, 2021 04:20
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I'd argue Medea is also meant as a parallel to Sakura (Maybe not to quite the degree that Medusa is, but relatively close), and is the reason why Rule Breaker is integral to climax of Heaven's Feel.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:21
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https://twitter.com/RodyOneHalf/status/1382172619517042688?s=19
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Apr 14, 2021 04:23
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Herk's whole deal was that he killed his whole family in the throes of a berserk rage, so his relationship with Illya and his ability to protect her despite the madness was a really nice bit.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:24
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The FSN servants are cool and I like how their stories link to their masters. Same Gaius Marius posted:I don't think it's an either or situation at all, Hercules only defining character in the work is him being really strong and partially divine, you could easily switch him out with someone else. Medea and Medusa both use their own legends to very lesser degree's and suffer for it, Medusa get's chumped on most the routes. If you're going to include legends, you should intertwine their own legends in with the novels story as well. At it's worst it feels like Nasu is just writing fanfiction about his OC's I think these are uncharitable readings of the the characters and their roles in FSN. Herc is absolutely meat mountain mid boss that's meant to be an obstacle, but he's also Hercules because there's a lot of things that come with being the most famous mythological figure in all of history. The invincibility is there because of the labors of the character and this is used multiple times to not only contrast strength of characters, but raise stakes, show character development, and in the case of the Deen anime it creates a David and Goliath fight in Archer vs Berserker that adds a lot of status to Archer posthumously (This of course existed already, but we get to see the details in that anime). His relationship with Illya is entirely founded upon Herc's killing of his own family against his will and wanting to protect Illya so that doesn't happen to her. This increases the stakes and gives added context and characterization to him for scenes like Herc vs Gil or Herc vs Saber where he is so desperate to protect Illya that he continuously fights well past the point logic dictates (That and he's a loving berserker, but it can be both). So like can Herc's spot in the story just be big unbeatable divine dude? Does it necessarily have to be Herc? Technically no, but that doesn't matter. Medea and Medusa's relationship with their respective masters is yet again, founded upon the context of their already existing relationships they had in their previous lives. Jason being an unrelenting shitbag and being condemned to being seen as a monster by her own people adds to the already very jaded perspective she has on other people. The fact that Kuzuki is the first person to treat her with base-level kindness after she suffers through a shitton of stuff is the entire basis of her relationship and motivation for doing literally anything she does in FSN. Medusa outright sees herself and her life in Sakura. A beautiful girl whose life has entirely been ruined by the cruel actions of others who see fit to play with another person's life and take no consideration of their well being. With Medusa it is the gods and Perseus trying to get some king's dick wet and for Sakura it's her lovely family using her as either a power conduit to become immortal or to satisfy an inferiority complex. Have aspects of their origins been rewritten to suit what Nasu wants to do with the characters more? Sure. Does that matter? Stories have been retold through time over and over again and have had aspects reshaped constantly, especially those of mythology and fables. So like if you think him using pre-established fictional figures to tell a story here is like lazy or just him trying to cut corners when he could just make other OCs instead I'd say your understanding of why anyone does anything is very shallow and boring? Not to be a dick, but I can't say this in a way that doesn't come off mean. Also I noticed you didn't mention him, but Cu is outright the only real heroic spirit in the entire game that is exactly what it says on the tin. If you have an issue with him, I mean you're just wrong. I don't know what else to say about it.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:26
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the most important herc lore is that bit from some apocrypha materials where they talk about how the greek grail war never got to start because everyone killed each other trying to get the heracles catalyst
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Apr 14, 2021 04:29
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I'm not even sure Nasu rewrote Medusa and Medea all that much tbh. Like he's hardly the first by any stretch of the imagination to paint them in a fairly sympathetic light.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:33
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Varinn posted:the most important herc lore is that bit from some apocrypha materials where they talk about how the greek grail war never got to start because everyone killed each other trying to get the heracles catalyst
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Apr 14, 2021 04:39
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I reread Tsukihime for the first time in, 8+ years or so? And I am excited to find out how the remake goes. What a wonderfully weird nonsense visual novel about vampires.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:39
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Iirc Medea kills her own children in the original mythology after she owns Jason and the circumstances surrounding the killing of Medusa are a little different (Like idr if the King is brought up at all in her backstory in FSN, iirc Perseus specifically targets her because she doesn't have the divinity her sisters do), but this is not the first time they've been written sympathetically at all.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:40
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The tricky thing with myths that old is there's so many tellings it's hard to keep straight. In some of the older versions it was an accidental killing, in some it wasn't even Medea that killed them, and in some she did it to spite Jason. What I do find cool is how the idea of different versions of the stories have different effects on the servant summoned, like for Jack the Ripper being different people in different classes or Vlad III being viewed heroically by some and a monster by others.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:46
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Medusa in Fate is a little odd. In Metamorphosis, she was normal human priestess who was assaulted by Poseidon in Athena's temple, who was later cursed by Athena for this "transgression". But Fate uses a different version, where Medusa was one of three sisters who were explicitly not human to begin with and were cursed because of their beauty, which seems to be an amalgamation of different myths.
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Apr 14, 2021 04:47
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