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habeasdorkus posted:I really like this explanation, but the bodies of angels were built by people originally, right? Zoss was the first to get to Throne, and he whupped all of the Primes and Metatron before anyone else showed up. The bodies are the old gods that formed when Yisun died. Zoss went into the warp or whatever you call the angel plane and kicked their asses there. Then humans on Throne built the forged ash shells for the angels to come into the material world to police Throne. The Primes are still coalescing in the warp or whatever.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:26
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habeasdorkus posted:I really like this explanation, but the bodies of angels were built by people originally, right? Zoss was the first to get to Throne, and he whupped all of the Primes and Metatron before anyone else showed up. I'd assumed that the cracks in the bodies reflected a crack in the actual angel underneath. White Chain is plasma so it'd cover up quickly, but Metatron is solid material. The prime angel suits were built by the gods, I think, and abandoned after Zoss slew the angels inside. Humans built smaller versions for regular angels. GlyphGryph posted:Also for the literal time loop every time the wheel stops and time rewinds, that IS omnicide. So if he succeeds he's not even doing anything different than what from what he understands was gonna happen anyway except preventing it from happening again by dictating the terms, which... it's understandable from that perspective. That's one way to interpret what he says here:  "It's looping, so who gives a gently caress" TK-42-1 posted:The bodies are the old gods that formed when Yisun died. Zoss went into the warp or whatever you call the angel plane and kicked their asses there. Then humans on Throne built the forged ash shells for the angels to come into the material world to police Throne. The Primes are still coalescing in the warp or whatever. No, the gods were much bigger than primes, and are used as buildings, hollowed out or built on. The prime angel bodies are mostly animated by bound devils and used for transport or other work. If you look at Hell 71, the hell itself is built in an old god body and there are several old prime angel bodies being used as attack tanks down towards the bottom. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 14:29
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MikeJF posted:Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers. "Jagganoth, drive these angel feathers into your body and you will become completely indestructible. Also I totally made Zoss think I gave him every name of God, what a sucker. No, the cracks were always there, why do you ask?"
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Apr 15, 2021 14:35
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Were the primes different from the current batch of angels? I was assuming from the name that they were the same, and that they were all primes prior to their first reincarnation.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:35
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GlyphGryph posted:Were the primes different from the current batch of angels? I was assuming from the name that they were the same, and that they were all primes prior to their first reincarnation. IIRC the gods picked out the greatest of angels to guard thone and made them huge bodies, and because they were hanging out in throne none of them died and they grew even more massive and powerful, whilst all of the angels in the void died occasionally fighting the black flame or doing other poo poo, so by the time Zoss got there all the prime angels were orders of magnitude older in that incarnation than any other Angel and massive, on top of having been among the best to start with, and also they directly knew the gods, which the ones left behind didn't. Angel ranks are based on the length of your past life, and between all of that and the god connection they have that makes the primes revered by the common angels.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:38
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These pages seem relevant for the "cycle" discussion: Wielder of Names 2-21 Wielder of Names 2-22
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Apr 15, 2021 15:23
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habeasdorkus posted:I really like this explanation, but the bodies of angels were built by people originally, right? Zoss was the first to get to Throne, and he whupped all of the Primes and Metatron before anyone else showed up. TK-42-1 posted:The bodies are the old gods that formed when Yisun died. Zoss went into the warp or whatever you call the angel plane and kicked their asses there. Then humans on Throne built the forged ash shells for the angels to come into the material world to police Throne. The Primes are still coalescing in the warp or whatever. Algid fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 15:34
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Don't Ask posted:These pages seem relevant for the "cycle" discussion: https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/seeker-of-thrones-9-101/
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Apr 15, 2021 15:39
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feel like it's less a loop and more that Zoss is editing the movie by moving people and plot events around time. Zoss just can't polish the turd, though, no matter what he tries
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Apr 15, 2021 18:24
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Potato Salad posted:feel like it's less a loop and more that Zoss is editing the movie by moving people and plot events around time. Zoss just can't polish the turd, though, no matter what he tries So he's constantly attempting to get the right butterfly in the past to flap their wings just right so that the future isn't complete poo poo. I can dig it.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:38
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Look I’m telling you, the Zoss Cut will fix everything
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Apr 15, 2021 19:41
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Regalingualius posted:Look I’m telling you, the Zoss Cut will fix everything we live in a society (it is somewhat wheel-shaped)
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Apr 15, 2021 21:50
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Royalty is a continuous re-cutting motion
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Apr 15, 2021 23:11
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MikeJF posted:Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers. Okay, I really like this theory.
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Apr 15, 2021 23:38
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GlyphGryph posted:Also for the literal time loop every time the wheel stops and time rewinds, that IS omnicide. So if he succeeds he's not even doing anything different than what from what he understands was gonna happen anyway except preventing it from happening again by dictating the terms, which... it's understandable from that perspective.  From his perspective, this is just one omnicide in a list of countless others since the cycle began.
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Apr 15, 2021 23:54
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PMush Perfect posted:
Depends how long and distinct the rollback is, and how much destiny/inevitability changes things. Like, if you're fated to be a particular person, and time resets, and you are still the same person at the end of the period, you're the same. Also goes for all the worlds whose history is the same, like unopened worlds, surely.
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Apr 16, 2021 01:11
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Omnicide is fine as long as you get a suitably similar replacement later on? An interesting take. But I also think its clear things change between every loop so it doesnt apply to at the very least a great number of people.
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Apr 16, 2021 03:38
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GlyphGryph posted:Omnicide is fine as long as you get a suitably similar replacement later on? An interesting take. I don't know that I consider it the same as omnicide any more than I consider a concussion a murder. If I lose my memories of a couple weeks, have I been killed? Certainly not an entire me, any more than I die when I forget my nightly dreams.
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Apr 16, 2021 03:58
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President Ark posted:we live in a Zossiety
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Apr 16, 2021 04:08
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Joe Slowboat posted:I don't know that I consider it the same as omnicide any more than I consider a concussion a murder. If I lose my memories of a couple weeks, have I been killed? Certainly not an entire me, any more than I die when I forget my nightly dreams.
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Apr 16, 2021 10:09
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PMush Perfect posted:I think “your fate is to repeat over and over again in a life so concretely predetermined that it can be played out an infinite number of times in perfect repetition” also counts as a pretty decent reason to want an omnivore. but in that case it doesn't really matter what you want
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Apr 16, 2021 22:04
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Joe Slowboat posted:I don't know that I consider it the same as omnicide any more than I consider a concussion a murder. If I lose my memories of a couple weeks, have I been killed? Certainly not an entire me, any more than I die when I forget my nightly dreams. Go back far enough, and if things play out differently in the new loop a bunch of people alive now will never exist at all in the new universe. That may not explicitly be the same as killing them but in a broad sense it seems pretty omnicidal! I'm also inclined to think that deliberately removing some or all of a person's memories of their lived life by, say, reversing time should be considered tantamount to causing them serious harm or even killing them. Would I be the same person I am now if I was blipped back to high school and the rest of my life played out differently? Probably not, so current me would effectively be dead. I guess the ethics of it get weird of things happen precisely like they did the first time but it doesn't sound like that's how it works in this case.
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Apr 16, 2021 23:11
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So Mario time travel rules.
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Apr 16, 2021 23:16
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https://twitter.com/Orbitaldropkick/status/1383182049801076737?s=20
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Apr 16, 2021 23:18
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So that may be another explanation for Jadis' prophecy predicting a male heir: her prophecy is simply recollection of past cycles, and the heir has always been male before.
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Apr 16, 2021 23:21
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Jagganoth speaking from first-hand experience rather than just repeating poo poo he was told by Metatron makes this a lot more credible. Especially since he's honest enough to point out that his understanding of what the gently caress the big guy is up to is highly incomplete. It'll be genuinely interesting to see if and for how long he remains an active antagonist. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Apr 16, 2021 |
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Apr 16, 2021 23:30
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shirts and skins posted:So that may be another explanation for Jadis' prophecy predicting a male heir: her prophecy is simply recollection of past cycles, and the heir has always been male before. i take this one as direct confirmation of that, yeah, the gender is too apparent, it's always been a young man and it probably should've been Zaid but something's different tbh, from what Zoss has personally said on camera, it seems like he personally is trying to change. it sure doesn't seem like Jagganoth is describing a Zoss that was urging his previous Heirs to move past violence and the idea that you can just win via domination like he's been doing with Allison eke out fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Apr 16, 2021 |
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Apr 16, 2021 23:34
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Why can't Abbadon Zoss himself back in time write the dialogue for Mass Effect 3. This is straight up Sovereign from ME1 speaking to the Shepard and it's so good compared to what we got.
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Apr 16, 2021 23:37
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The fallen heir on the far right looks like it could *be* Zaid. Maybe he was the heir in a previous iteration.
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Apr 16, 2021 23:48
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If Jagganoth's the same guy each time does that apply to everyone else too? Maybe it's always Zaid and he just looks different each time.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:01
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YaketySass posted:If Jagganoth's the same guy each time does that apply to everyone else too? Maybe it's always Zaid and he just looks different each time. It would explain why Juggernaut Star knew to be right there, right then. And it definitely seems like Zoss has in fact been learning and changing as he tried to find a way to make things work, but never could. I'm curious where the 'loop' is anchored, since it definitely doesn't sound like Zoss is going back to the Universal War, just to when he chooses an heir, which would mean nearly all of Jagganoth's life, thousands of years of it, was completely separate from this cycle. Nearly all of his personal torment, as well. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 17, 2021 |
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Apr 17, 2021 00:10
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eke out posted:i take this one as direct confirmation of that, yeah, the gender is too apparent, it's always been a young man and it probably should've been Zaid but something's different I don't think Zoss picked Allison on purpose, he just didn't have sight or hearing and blindly grabbed what he thought was Zaid in a desperate clutch play.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:11
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Wait, Jagganoth's saying that the cycle ends with the Heir victorious against the "corrupt lords of the world", then Jagganoth drops by and kicks his rear end. But isn't Jagganoth himself one of these lords?
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Apr 17, 2021 00:14
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Reclaimer posted:I don't think Zoss picked Allison on purpose, he just didn't have sight or hearing and blindly grabbed what he thought was Zaid in a desperate clutch play. He’d probably find it hilarious if he wound up picking the heir that finally breaks the cycle completely by accident.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:17
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Joe Slowboat posted:It would explain why Juggernaut Star knew to be right there, right then. The particular phrasing "corrupt lords of the world" makes me wonder. Maybe Jagganoth is something constant, but I wonder about the other six.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:22
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YaketySass posted:Wait, Jagganoth's saying that the cycle ends with the Heir victorious against the "corrupt lords of the world", then Jagganoth drops by and kicks his rear end. But isn't Jagganoth himself one of these lords? I was also confused by this, hopefully Jagg will go on a little longer about what exactly the cycle is, or else we're gonna talk in circles wondering about it.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:29
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YaketySass posted:Wait, Jagganoth's saying that the cycle ends with the Heir victorious against the "corrupt lords of the world", then Jagganoth drops by and kicks his rear end. But isn't Jagganoth himself one of these lords? Chalk me up for another who found his narrative there a bit confusing.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:53
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Captain Oblivious posted:Chalk me up for another who found his narrative there a bit confusing. The Heir probably kills the other six and then Jags takes their keys and makes a second completed Key of Kings and then Zoss hits restart in a bald panic.
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Apr 17, 2021 00:57
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Yeah, in the “normal” series of events the heir probably has a more traditional arc of the demiurges being bosses whose asses they kick in straight up fights before Jagganoth shows up at the end of the line.
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Apr 17, 2021 01:06
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so jagg is basically sans
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Apr 17, 2021 01:15
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