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Halloween Jack posted:You do not, under any circumstances, gotta hand it to Cthulhutech, but at least it has a couple clear gameplay loops right out of the corebook. I share the general confusion over what you're supposed to do in Degenesis. To give some credit where it's due, Primal Punk does try to give plot hooks or at least set them up in the writing - there are certain tensions in every region (though in Poland it's just Fractal Forests vs. Primer) and big cities have their own issues - and the cult NPCs at the end of whatever chapter are also useful in that regard. None of that is reflected in the adventures, I guess, since the author thinks thay zealots threatening a half-naked woman is so good, they did it three times already (twice in In Thy Blood). The adventure scenes are nodes in the sense that train stations are nodes in Train To Busan: they exist, but you can't switch them around, deviate from the path, or go back.
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Apr 19, 2021 06:26
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Angrymog posted:How to take part Supplies Shovels, picks and a cartload of timbers. Also some rope and grappling hooks. Distance The nearest bit of terrain hidden behind, say, a small hillock or other terrain feature that will give the party peace to plot out of sight. Angrymog posted:I'll pick a plan, then game it out, and give you the results. The plan is to use the shovels and picks to tunnel in, while the timbers are used for shoring up the tunnel. Clearly, since the GM has not defined anything about the floors, we should be able to bust right up from underground and take everyone by surprise. If we get overwhelmed, we pull back through the tunnel and collapse it behind us, burying the pursuers and then engaging in a more conventional overland assault where we grapple up to the battlements and climb the walls.
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Apr 19, 2021 07:52
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Cooked Auto posted:Only thing I am willing to give CTech is that I like the basic concept of it. But that's about it because everything beyond that is utterly dire. The basic concept is table top Command and Conquer, and then it changes the world from being covered in green crystals to it being covered in rape.
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Apr 19, 2021 08:41
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PurpleXVI posted:Purple's Plan Angrymog posted:
Colin will pray for Detect Magic, and Cure Light Wounds for a backup. Angrymog posted:You had the opportunity (and money) to buy any sensible, non-magical, adventuring equipment. Angrymog posted:
While guards are higher during the night, it's the best time to attack. Mikhail the mage needs to get as close to the south wall as he can without being noticed in the night and cast sleep on the guards patrolling the south part of the wall. Alex will then use the potion of levitate to reach the top of an archer tower to back stab one out and hopefully snipe the other archer on the other tower. Sneaking over if needed. And sneak around using those no sound boots. Hopefully avoiding anyone in the towers and if that can't be done using more of that levitate to get to the ground inside the keep to unlock the front door. Once the door is open, Alex should signal to the party to approach and they should not be noticed yet. The party needs to get setup in one of the towers which should serve as a great choke point, while Mikhail sets up some escape ropes at the top of the tower incase things go wrong, while the rest should barricade the door leading to the battlements (If he only needed to use one sleep spell he can still help out, but if this is pretty much the end of his role.) Alex should then sneak over to the Wolves pen and unlock it before going back to the tower. The Wolves should cause some chaos and if they do the rest of the party should set up. Magda and Adventurine at the top of the stairs ready to chop any heads that pop up. Colin and Alex on the roof sniping the guys while they are dealing with the wolves. If it starts to the look like the guys are thinning out or routing then it's time to go on the attack, and head through the base.
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Apr 19, 2021 08:41
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Okay, now that I think about, I think a Bechdel style self-awareness test for a writer should be "If you suddenly revealed that the entire plot and world building up to this point was an extremely convoluted plan by a bald alien to catch a ride home, would it make the setting less dumb? If so, rethink the design process up to this point."
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Apr 19, 2021 08:47
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The Tiberian Sun time line was fun though, extremely silly but fun.
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Apr 19, 2021 09:13
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Ronwayne posted:Okay, now that I think about, I think a Bechdel style self-awareness test for a writer should be "If you suddenly revealed that the entire plot and world building up to this point was an extremely convoluted plan by a bald alien to catch a ride home, would it make the setting less dumb? If so, rethink the design process up to this point."
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Apr 19, 2021 09:14
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By popular demand posted:The Tiberian Sun time line was fun though, extremely silly but fun. Precisely, it insulted the players intelligence but in a way not homophobic, racist, or etc. Platonic stupidity.
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Apr 19, 2021 09:22
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I like the idea of mankind actually fighting back at the cosmic horrors for once. And mechs are cool as well. But beyond that point? Nah, I'll just go back dream. (Unintentional pun totally intended.  )
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Apr 19, 2021 11:36
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Hipster Occultist posted:I'm very sorry if I've besmirched Slaanesh's good name with all of this. Slaanesh looks at Degenesis and says "You guys might be going a little overboard with all the rape."
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Apr 19, 2021 14:42
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So, That Scene in Black Atlantic got me to go back and actually read all the Degenesis stuff over the last couple of days. There is in fact stuff I like here. The art is good. The Hellvetics being exactly as hosed up and useless as you'd expect military turbofash to be is funny and good (if perhaps not what the writers intended). A lot of the Psychonaut poo poo is legitimately creepy. I genuinely like the idea that after Europe (and presumably North America and East Asia) gets blown to hell, Africa would escape lightly touched and be the center of reemerging civilization. But then you get all the fash worship, the racism, the misogyny, the extreme misogynistic violence used for shock value, the railroaded plot, the VtM metaplot, and, well. I've raised this question before in these threads with other RPGs, and I'll raise it again here: what are the PCs supposed to do? The only purpose they seem to serve in these adventures is moving the plot coupons from one place to another, and doing anything else with the setting is flatly presented as impossible. You could of course take an ax to the setting but the game clearly doesn't expect or want you to do that and is proceeding on the assumption that PCs do nothing of consequence. This is one of the most 90s games I've ever seen, and it was released in the 00s.
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Apr 19, 2021 14:56
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Cythereal posted:So, That Scene in Black Atlantic got me to go back and actually read all the Degenesis stuff over the last couple of days. You answered your own question basically. Deviating from canon is widely mocked by the game's small community.
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Apr 19, 2021 15:28
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Hipster Occultist posted:You answered your own question basically. Deviating from canon is widely mocked by the game's small community. Thankfully, the game's small community is widely mocked here, too!
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Apr 19, 2021 15:30
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Why would people get this into a game that seemingly doesn't care about making anything interesting or fun? Was this a big hit at any point?
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Apr 19, 2021 15:33
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Josef bugman posted:Why would people get this into a game that seemingly doesn't care about making anything interesting or fun? I think the basic premise of the game is evocative enough. I could see taking the basic setting as presented, applying the DM's hatchet, and doing something interesting. Hell, even part of the metaplot: the PCs are unwittingly gathering the components to let an anti-orbital laser target and shoot down the space station where the capitalist rear end in a top hat from the pre-apoc age watches and plans to one day be king poo poo over the ruins of humanity, a ruin he caused or at least made significantly worse than it had to be. That's not a bad plot idea! Biotech Elon Musk gets blown to bits by the 'savages' he thought were just sheeple! Surprise motherfucker!
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Apr 19, 2021 15:39
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Josef bugman posted:Why would people get this into a game that seemingly doesn't care about making anything interesting or fun? I think the art/production values resulted in a bit of a spalsh when Rebirth first came out in like 2016, but beyond that not really. The game has never even broke even for the creator.
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Apr 19, 2021 15:39
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So this aside: thoughts from folks on what can be salvaged? I don't have my book on hand to go in depth, but some thoughts:
e: Cythereal made a good point while I was writing that the broad-strokes parts of the metaplots have some great ideas to them too. Also Cernunnos. Robot druid please show up elsewhere.
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Apr 19, 2021 15:51
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I don't think Degenesis can be saved. So much of it is just  that don't provide hooks. My brain bounces off it, even just trying to read about it. The whole thing feels shot through with racism and stereotypes. When it isn't obviously awful stuff like Islamophobia and treating Africa as a Dark Continent, it's the kind of weird intra-European racism that seems quaint from my American POV. (Germans are...crusading Anabaptists? I still have no idea why they call themselves Anabaptists.) It bothers me in a way that Warhammer's not-Vikings and not-Spaniards do not.To make a playable setting, I think I'd have an easier time taking a crayon to the Mystara Gazetteers and scrawling "but Mad Max" after everything.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:28
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Perhaps my biggest problem with Degenesis' metaplot and setting, aside from the misogyny and racism that don't appear to serve any actual plot point, is the 'memes as mind control' poo poo. I didn't realize until the big metaplot summary just how much Degenesis leans on what's basically magic to avoid having to explain why people would do obviously selfish, self-destructive, and foolish things. It's not like a lot of those things would even be hard to explain! But nope, memetic mind control for everyone! It's the same problem as Chaos in Warhammer (Fantasy and 40k): writing believable motivations can be challenging, so here's a crutch to summarily dismiss those problems of 'So why are the villains doing what they're doing?' and 'Why do they continually have hordes of mooks ready to die for their cause?' If I were to try to salvage Degenesis without completely dismissing it, I'd probably roll with something like this kind of memetic mind control being possible in the Bygone era because of the super-internet. Post-Eschaton, it's breaking down fast and hard because the tools and psychological environment that made it really work are simply not present anymore. I think you could get some real mileage out of Elon Musk causing the apocalypse, then his plans to rule the world afterwards breaking down because he was so thoroughly indoctrinated in the techbro mindset that he never really thought about how people and society would change in a completely different world, and being wholly unprepared for the ensuing threat of the people he thinks of as mere barbarians. Sure, a redevelopment of Degenesis' setting that de-emphasizes the Chtorr in favor of Elon Musk causing the apocalypse because he thinks he'll be the god-king of all the world, go gently caress that guy up would be a major departure from the setting as presented, but the setting as presented is crap and Elon Musk is an identifiable, 'realistic' adversary you could easily spin a story about discovering, learning about, opposing, and ultimately killing. It wouldn't be an original story, but a good group could easily make a satisfying game out of that. The not-Chtorr are harder to salvage, I think, because SVG has confused opacity for mystery. Securing any kind of real, lasting success against this threat means making a leap into the unknown because the setting and metaplot as presented is not interested in telling you how to do that. Fight the creepy bug people, yes sure. But the setting, so far, appears wholly uninterested in the question of 'So how do we make genuine, fundamental progress against this threat?' and its attendant question of 'What is it in fact trying to do?'
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Apr 19, 2021 16:32
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I think some of that is the Not-Vikings are being used as shorthand instead of tons of detail. "They're Not-Vikings, so you can picture their daneaxes and what their gear looks like and what their language sounds like. That's out of the way, now let's talk about the magic stuff and the places they break from being vikings." Same with the Brets being French or the Imperials being the HRE. They're kinda there so you can fill in a bunch of background detail and then the books spend time on how they're different, instead of like 'all Germans are crusading Anabaptists!'.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:34
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Cooked Auto posted:I like the idea of mankind actually fighting back at the cosmic horrors for once. Have you seen Eldritch Skies? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/125678/Eldritch-Skies-Savage-Worlds-Edition
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Apr 19, 2021 16:37
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think Degenesis can be saved. So much of it is just Oh, I should definitely clarify - Degenesis itself can't be saved. Just thinking on design elements that could work outside its context; the game is a lost cause, but being able to pull something out of it might make our poor reviewers' experience worth the pain in the rear end that is figuring the whole thing out. Cythereal posted:Perhaps my biggest problem with Degenesis' metaplot and setting, aside from the misogyny and racism that don't appear to serve any actual plot point, is the 'memes as mind control' poo poo. I didn't realize until the big metaplot summary just how much Degenesis leans on what's basically magic to avoid having to explain why people would do obviously selfish, self-destructive, and foolish things. Never gonna not find it funny that Metal Gear played the memetics card and wildly succeeded while SMV completely missed the mark. Would be a hell of a way to redirect the plot to something more "playable". I'd be entirely on board with that, not least because it's depressingly realistic (at this point I need to start paying the New Yorker royalties for how much this seems to show up in my posts, but they outline it pretty well - Getrell did what Musk and co. want to do, and the memetic approach is a less overt alternative to some of what's actually getting explored). Plus who doesn't want to shoot a big ol' space laser and watch the fireworks? It is more than a little ridiculous that the memetics keep working so well on the Apocalyptics in particular (Palers are... complicated; the systems shut down for no good reasons, but the lack of outside influence means maybe once they're engrained the system doesn't matter any more?). Just an excuse to keep them going I guess. e: Medium post was the wrong one and can't find the right one atm
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Apr 19, 2021 16:44
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Cooked Auto posted:I like the idea of mankind actually fighting back at the cosmic horrors for once. The thing is, most fiction of humanity fighting back against an overwhelming force like that tend to come from bullshit HUMANITY gently caress YEAH reactionary poo poo. When you see things about cthulu or angels getting blown up with missles you can almost loving hear the "In this moment, I am euphoric..." coming from the background.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:44
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Have you seen Eldritch Skies? Pretty sure that was covered in the thread in the past so I might have heard about it yeah. Ronwayne posted:The thing is, most fiction of humanity fighting back against an overwhelming force like that tend to come from bullshit HUMANITY gently caress YEAH reactionary poo poo. When you see things about cthulu or angels getting blown up with missles you can almost loving hear the "In this moment, I am euphoric..." coming from the background. Yes, I am all too loving aware of that genre of fiction. And I'm not a fan of it either I would like to add before you get any ideas. That "Humans are so superspecialawesome" wankery quickly becomes samey and boring. But that still doesn't mean I can't enjoy the idea of humanity banding together and spitting the great evil in the eye out of sheer "No, gently caress you" stubbornness because I'm a sucker for believing in the human spirit and such like that. Hell, it doesn't even have to be humans that do it. It could be a motley band of aliens and others that join together. It's the core theme that I enjoy, the one of showing defiance and a will to fight despite going up against a force older than the universe itself.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:57
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Have you seen Eldritch Skies? By popular demand posted:We're not unaccustomed to self aggrandizing edgelords ITT who expect the players to sign up for an abusive relationship gameplay. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Apr 19, 2021 |
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Apr 19, 2021 17:00
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Halloween Jack posted:I will go back and finish my F&F sooner or later. Hah, my hunch was right.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:01
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Which reminds me - playtest of Never Going Home started yesterday and wraps up in a week or two for the one-shot (whether we continue or not is currently an unknown). My condensed rules sheet fit on one page (and the whole book, art + adventures + a lot of filler included, is under 120 pages compared to Red Markets' 500ish if I'm remembering right), so I might try to hammer out a short review at some point between Red Markets posts. Which... I'll try and get another of out soon, too. preliminary tldr notes: janky mechanics but good game.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:03
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Ronwayne posted:The thing is, most fiction of humanity fighting back against an overwhelming force like that tend to come from bullshit HUMANITY gently caress YEAH reactionary poo poo. When you see things about cthulu or angels getting blown up with missles you can almost loving hear the "In this moment, I am euphoric..." coming from the background. I'm the opposite. Whenever I see cthulhu or angels or whatever just shrug off missile barrages and heavy artillery I roll my eyes. If it's established how they are doing it, that's one thing but giant monsters being immune to harm is boring. Sure, most fiction about fighting them tends to be poorly written, but the premise itself is more interesting than yet another "nope, we're helpless against this" depression wank
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Apr 19, 2021 17:05
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Ronwayne posted:The thing is, most fiction of humanity fighting back against an overwhelming force like that tend to come from bullshit HUMANITY gently caress YEAH reactionary poo poo. When you see things about cthulu or angels getting blown up with missles you can almost loving hear the "In this moment, I am euphoric..." coming from the background. It's not difficult to strip reactionary military fetishization out of stories about blowing up space cthulhus with lasers, but it takes, at the very least, the recognition that if you don't do that, you open the door to chuds projecting their reactionary military fetishization fantasy onto the property
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Apr 19, 2021 17:07
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Froghammer posted:This is a fine line that Pacific Rim of all things nails really well? The Kaiju aren't framed (at least initially) as an unknowable malevolent invaders but as quasi-sentient forces of nature, ranked identically to the way we categorize hurricanes. The Jaeger program is explicitly not a military outfit, with very the few members that actively outrank others having names based off of specialized and niche federal enforcement programs (pilots are rangers, their handler is a marshal). At the other extreme of the spectrum you have Salvation War (web fiction where God abandons Earth and Satan declares himself the new ruler. Humans fight back against both with extreme force), which is 90% reactionary military wank by volume, 9% terrible characterization, and 1% genuinely cool moments. I wanted to like it so much, the premise is 100% my jam, but drat is it poorly written and filled with way too much reactionary military fetishization.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:14
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Cooked Auto posted:Pretty sure that was covered in the thread in the past so I might have heard about it yeah. I didn't mean to acuse you of being said assholes, I apologize. I'm a fan of the idea itself its just so hard to tear away from the aforementioned chortling fuckers. I guess its the difference between banding together to fight a threat vs smugly wanking over the inevitable destruction of anything that opposes white guy world order. I think its kind of related to the "magic is just tech that hasn't been industrialized and engineered by IT STEM guys like me" folks that try to turn all magic systems into peasant railgun bullshit. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 19, 2021 |
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Apr 19, 2021 17:15
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SkyeAuroline posted:Would be a hell of a way to redirect the plot to something more "playable". I'd be entirely on board with that, not least because it's depressingly realistic (at this point I need to start paying the New Yorker royalties for how much this seems to show up in my posts, but they outline it pretty well - Getrell did what Musk and co. want to do, and the memetic approach is a less overt alternative to some of what's actually getting explored). Plus who doesn't want to shoot a big ol' space laser and watch the fireworks? I think the problem with the Sepsis/Primer/Psychonauts as major adversaries is that they're faceless. There's no singular adversary to overcome, and a story without a specific enemy to defeat, a specific thing to destroy, *something* to wreck in a big climactic showdown, is a much tougher story to tell. Yes, there are individual Psychonauts, but they're just symptoms of a problem. Why would you go into Souffrance, or the Reaper's Blow? How do you stop them, neutralize the infection, or burn them out? It's just faceless spooky 'the plot says you die here' nonsense that there's zero reason to engage with unless it's actively threatening people or places that your characters care about. Degensis' head is stuck so far up its own rear end with the Chakra and ancient humans poo poo that it can see daylight, and fighting back against Sepsis is clearly not the actual point of the game or the story to be told here. It's just a background threat, like rad-whatevers in Fallout or terminators or what have you. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Just look at Red Markets, the zombies are not in fact the main attraction narratively and the setting is very aware of this fact. Degenesis does not appear similarly aware that it's written an uninteresting background threat that there is zero presented reason to engage with because there's no narrative to be had here. Sepsis is also so toxic and hostile that there isn't really a story to be told here about humanity adapting to an increasingly alien world. Sepsis kills you or turns you into magic bug monsters. End of story. Degenesis is just misery porn.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:21
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Halloween Jack posted:I will go back and finish my F&F sooner or later. It was released at a time (which I suppose never really ended) where there was a huge glut of stuff using the Lovecraft mythos for stuff other than CoC, and people didn't take as much interest in it since it didn't have the same production values as e.g. Cthulhutech. I actually backed the original Eldritch Skies kickstarter when it was using the Cinematic Unisystem Rules set (used in the Buffy:The Vampire Slayer RPG and the Army of Darkness RPG) which was a cut down version of the Eden Studios Unisystem first used in CJ Carella's Witchcraft game and then in All Flesh Must Be Eaten.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:31
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Ronwayne posted:I didn't mean to accuse you of being said assholes, I apologize. I'm a fan of the idea itself its just so hard to tear away from the aforementioned chortling fuckers. I guess its the difference between banding together to fight a threat vs smugly wanking over the inevitable destruction of anything that opposes white guy world order. It's fine, I was probably a bit too harsh myself. To which I apologise as well. It's the tone in this case that sorta seals the deal if it's going to be interesting or just trite human wankery. The best example I can think of is one side being the Gurren Lagann anime and the other side being the previously aforementioned Salvation War. Where on one side you have people banding together in the face of adversity and manage to do it through grit and tenacity, and on the other side it's just "Humans kill demons with missiles pew pew, all hail our military industrial complex." Sorta related, I'm kinda curious to see where Sejic takes his new Achilles Shieldmaiden comic concept because it does kinda nudge somewhat close towards that story concept.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:33
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I do think the idea of Europe being colonized as a way to do a Puddenhead Wilson "now that it's happening to you, do you see why it is bad?" deal is interesting, but I can easy see that being hijacked by dumb racists who want to use it for "black people bad". When you strip out all the weird Aspiring Anime Bible Scholar poo poo and the fetish women torture poo poo from Degenesis I'm not sure there's anything left to it other than generic Post Apocalyptic land. The apocalypse being caused by a bad dude who wanted to rule in hell isn't even new or interesting, and I suspect the thread wouldn't even be talking about him if he didn't align with the loathed Elon Musk - and I'd argue he doesn't, as nothing ITT really captures Elon's cult of ineffectual scientific fetishization (see: Grimes renaming herself to c). poo poo, I'd rather play Torg.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:03
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LatwPIAT posted:Whenever I see this name I always wonder if Bad Hair Man was making a reference to a slightly different C. Torn.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:06
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I think if I take anything from Degenesis for my own purposes, it will be the concept of the Spitalians. I like the idea of an order of doctors who go into wastelands and warzones with flamethrowers and medkits to beat back plagues and tend to those in need no matter what the authorities say. Just, tone down the fascist elements. Like an idealistic and less mercenary version of DocWagon or Trauma Team.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:18
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Cythereal posted:I think the problem with the Sepsis/Primer/Psychonauts as major adversaries is that they're faceless. There's no singular adversary to overcome, and a story without a specific enemy to defeat, a specific thing to destroy, *something* to wreck in a big climactic showdown, is a much tougher story to tell. Yes, there are individual Psychonauts, but they're just symptoms of a problem. Well, spoilers for my future entries but there is a confrontation with the new type of Psychonaut at the end of BA. It's not interesting, but it's there. You are right though, for something that's on paper an existential threat to all of humanity, most of the books spend very little time on actually dealing with them in any meaningful way. The vast majority of the plot is somehow tied to GG or warring factions in the game world, and most of these conflicts just end up destroying whatever town/region that they took place in. There's instances of successful conflicts waged against the Psychonauts in the background, but nothing really that the PCs are involved in. Currently there's no reason to enter an impact site like Souffrance. I imagine that will change once they finally write whatever book Cairo ends up in, but eh. You want to know what's really infuriating though? Spoilers for the Justinian books, but it's harder to put down a Psychonaut than you might think. You see, the mind of a Psychonaut is actually bound with the Ether (psychic hive mind), and when they die the Precognetics pull together the various threads that contain their memories, personalities, skills, etc, and stitch their consciousness back together. Meanwhile, a new body is born, and once said body matures they stuff the mind back into it and voila! Reincarnation! Now, imagine you'd be running a game in which the PCs had pulled together, gathered resources, forged alliances, and led terrible armies that cast down a Pheromancer King or two. The you get this book, which tells you that it left out some pretty fuckin' important info for like 5 books and now all of that work is meaningless! The only way to permanantly kill a Psychonaut is to have an Anubian there at the time of death, and they can sever its link to the chakra or some poo poo. Only some of the Anubians know this though, and it's framed as a new discovery even for them.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:24
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Hipster Occultist posted:You want to know what's really infuriating though? Spoilers for the Justinian books, but it's harder to put down a Psychonaut than you might think. You see, the mind of a Psychonaut is actually bound with the Ether (psychic hive mind), and when they die the Precognetics pull together the various threads that contain their memories, personalities, skills, etc, and stitch their consciousness back together. Meanwhile, a new body is born, and once said body matures they stuff the mind back into it and voila! Reincarnation! Now, imagine you'd be running a game in which the PCs had pulled together, gathered resources, forged alliances, and led terrible armies that cast down a Pheromancer King or two. The you get this book, which tells you that it left out some pretty fuckin' important info for like 5 books and now all of that work is meaningless! The only way to permanantly kill a Psychonaut is to have an Anubian there at the time of death, and they can sever its link to the chakra or some poo poo. Only some of the Anubians know this though, and it's framed as a new discovery even for them. That would be the point where I take all the Degenesis books and chuck them out the window, tbh.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:27
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Ah, the grand old 'Nu-Uh' factor for major villains.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:28
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