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Jade Mage posted:Holy absolute poo poo Hungry, you could have this latest chapter of Katalepsis stretch for like the next dozen chapters and I would still be hanging off every word. The downtime just in the hallway house for monsters or attempting interdimensional conquest are both great. Hey, thank you very much! I'm always really happy whenever anybody's enjoying the story, glad you're having so much fun. And it's nice to know that the current downtime parts are working well too. Ever since I mishandled the pacing back in the middle of arc 10, I've been very cautious about drawing any one section out for too long, but I suppose there's a big difference between fighting some random weirdo and resolving(?) the intersection between three of the main character arcs.
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Apr 20, 2021 10:01
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It's super good.
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Apr 20, 2021 10:03
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LLSix posted:First four books of Mage Errant are free. Wish people wouldnt refer to kindle unlimited as "giving away", a term which implies you own the thing now.
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Apr 20, 2021 11:35
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Josh Christ posted:Wish people wouldnt refer to kindle unlimited as "giving away", a term which implies you own the thing now.
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Apr 20, 2021 11:40
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Cicero posted:Earlier they were free just on the regular Kindle store. That worked for me. I decided to buy the most recent book for four bucks after I realized the first four were free.
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Apr 20, 2021 15:48
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Hungry posted:Hey, thank you very much! I'm always really happy whenever anybody's enjoying the story, glad you're having so much fun. Yeah, this arc is "downtime" in the sense that they're going shopping rather than fighting stuff but there's been some significant developments in every chapter and one of the long-running arcs is clearly progressing.
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Apr 20, 2021 16:51
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LLSix posted:First four books of Mage Errant are free. It doesn't look free to me, did I miss the window?
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Apr 20, 2021 18:30
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Bremen posted:It doesn't look free to me, did I miss the window?
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Apr 20, 2021 18:31
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Larry Parrish posted:I too started to hate Pith's helplessly naive cast but it appears that Anabelle has finally learned some stuff. It just seems like she really should have toughened up sooner. But what do I know? If I'm honest my world view largely hasnt changed like hers did. Maybe I would take a while to adapt too. It always confuses me when people get upset at protagonists having actual flaws. Like some people just can't even consume media unless they personally identify with the protagonist and all PoV characters (that aren't explicitly villainous) are good/correct (or gradually become more good/correct by the end of the series) I'm not referring to you there (like you sort of mention/imply, it's not really strange for Anabelle to have the sort of mindset she has, since her response to a terrible life was fantasize about the grass being greener elsewhere), but this attitude seems pretty endemic among most popular media (I was going to say YA stories and web serials, but honestly this applies to most major movies and TV shows as well). vvv To me it heavily depends on the ideology of the work as a whole, which can sometimes be a subtle distinction, but there's definitely a tendency for nearly all PoV or otherwise "good-aligned (from the perspective of the plot)" characters to either be good or be bad in ways that are remedied within the scope of the story. It's also one thing to say "I don't want to read this kind of story" (which is completely fine) and another to say that "the protagonist being bad/dumb is a reason this story isn't good and I don't recommend it because of this." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 20:31
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Some people are mad at flawed protagonists, other times it's just that the particular flaw in question makes a story annoying or lovely to read to a reader. To use an example probably everyone here can relate to: historically, people have had plenty of lovely ideas about race and sex (and still do, obviously). Having a protagonist who's a huge bigot is very realistic, but that doesn't mean I wanna read that story. Or for an actual example: I don't think Ryoka being misanthropic in early TWI was necessarily bad writing, but it did make some of her parts rather painful to read. If you imagine a TWI that was just Ryoka all the time, it seems probable that such a version would've lost a lot of readers early.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:01
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Cicero posted:Some people are mad at flawed protagonists, other times it's just that the particular flaw in question makes a story annoying or lovely to read to a reader. Agreed. Also if I wanted to read about clueless people that relitigate the same dilemma hundreds of times without changing anything, D&D is just a few forums away.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:04
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I only read book one of TWI, and I did find Ryokas sections somewhat grating. I did really enjoy the meta conceipt that Ryoka is the stereotypical wish fulfillment self insert isekai character (beautiful, brilliant, independent, yadda yadda) and the story is fully aware she is a buffoon. The exchange where the main character talks about voting for bernie in the primary and Ryoka reflects on how her vote as an Ohio resident was for the libertarian candidate? Delicious.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:32
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Ytlaya posted:It always confuses me when people get upset at protagonists having actual flaws. Like some people just can't even consume media unless they personally identify with the protagonist and all PoV characters (that aren't explicitly villainous) are good/correct (or gradually become more good/correct by the end of the series) My experience, and I haven't read Pith to comment on that in particular, is the author gives the reader information and situations that would suggest a character would be or grow into being "good" or "correct" but then intentionally doesn't on the basis of a flaw or no one being perfect. Writing a character into situations where they should know better or change but don't is bad writing not the reader having unrealistic expectations.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:35
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Ytlaya posted:It always confuses me when people get upset at protagonists having actual flaws. Like some people just can't even consume media unless they personally identify with the protagonist and all PoV characters (that aren't explicitly villainous) are good/correct (or gradually become more good/correct by the end of the series) I enjoy things better when protagonists are at the very least intelligent, rational, and make consistently good decisions based on the information they have. I'm not going to claim it's realistic or anything, but it's much more enjoyable for me, in the same way a game is more enjoyable if I can make reasonably easy progress and frustrating if I can't accomplish anything. I don't demand they be powerful, but I guess "smart" is sort of my preferred power fantasy? And yes, this is the reason I bounced hard off TWI, which early on seemed to be the story of two characters who both consistently made poor choices but were rewarded anyways.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:23
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there definitely is a thing where web serial readers claim they don't want perfect protagonists but then get pissed whenever one of them isn't perfect lol. Although it's kind of understandable considering how many crappy stories have characters who's decision making process is entirely plot-based, so it makes them seem dumb as hell and incapable of learning. which is even worse writing than having someone be an ubermensch who never makes mistakes. I can see how you could confuse ryoka etc for this
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Apr 21, 2021 18:24
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ryoka sucks at first because it seems like she's not going to face the consequences of acting the way she does, things go right for her. but the thing is, and i think i can say this without really spoiling anything - she does eat poo poo eventually and has to grow as a person. erin does, too, although not to the same extent because she's not as out of touch as ryoka. this is probably the most frustrating thing about encouraging people to read TWI to me - volume 1 sets up a lot of cliche characters which drives people away, but part of the point of the story is to take an entire setting that is almost defined by its derivativeness and take it ten steps beyond its origin. that's why there are so many words
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Apr 21, 2021 19:36
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I don't mind characters making mistakes as long as it is relevant to their character and not just blatant stupidity to make a plot event happen. I thought these were done well: Zuko from avatar siding with his sister rather than his uncle then later regretting. Fits his character and motivations. Lindon from cradle (bloodline spoiler) going to the wei clan himself as a savior with unsouled badge instead of delegating to someone else they might respect and listen to.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:08
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Mistakes by a viewpoint character are fine, and in fact good. A perfect character that is always correct is boring. But at the same time, growth is important in any story of length. If the person makes a mistake then makes the same mistake again and this repeats for the entire length of the story, it can get frustrating.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:15
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The worst is when the narrative tells us that the character has learned from their mistake and developed as a person and then that turns out to be a lie.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:39
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For Pith in particular, the weirdest thing to me is a strange but very setting-specific moral stance one character has. It's needed to make a lot of the plot go, but it's weird and other characters in the story specifically call it out as weird. Plot details: The story has people's souls being movable between bodies (either natural or factory-made). Because of  , Anabelle is in a falling apart body that's going to die from a stroke/heart attack at some point in the next few months. She's willing to kill people, including in active ways with plans like "break into this building, kill the guards, then search the place", but is unwilling to swap bodies with those same guards instead of/before killing them. Eventually it gets resolved by the plot maneuvering her into a situation where a swap more directly keeps one of her friends safe, then she's fine with it. (as opposed to before when she's just indirectly endangering them by doing stuff while semi-crippled and potentially dropping dead at any moment)
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Apr 21, 2021 22:14
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Yeah I never really got that one either. I just chalked it up to her giving up on herself, but not her friends.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:24
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Foxfire_ posted:For Pith in particular, the weirdest thing to me is a strange but very setting-specific moral stance one character has. It's needed to make a lot of the plot go, but it's weird and other characters in the story specifically call it out as weird. Agreed, it felt artificial and plot driven.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:50
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unless im wildly misremembering, it doesn't even take the entirety of vol 1 for ryoka to eat poo poo over her idiotic misanthropy right? she tries to fight yvlon and then goes full freakout to the point that all the horns realize she's a huge idiot. then they go die to skinner so the last time she ever saw all her friends she acted like the biggest idiot ever
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Apr 24, 2021 04:32
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I felt Ryoka took way too long to learn (I had other issues with her chapters as well but they weren't really about her). It was around the introduction of Laken that I dropped TWI iirc, and while Ryoka was certainly not the only reason it was still during one of her chapters that I got so fed up with the way she thought about people (specifically when she befriended some fairy) that I just gave up on the story.
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Apr 24, 2021 06:03
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PracGuide: I'm genuinely curious how Black's goals will be in conflict with Catherine's. I can't think of how this would be the case. I guess it's possible that he's opposed to helping the West for some reason? edit: It's also interesting that Arthur seems to have something similar to Ranger's Learn, though in a transitive Name so it's not quite the same broken long-term thing. Bremen posted:And yes, this is the reason I bounced hard off TWI, which early on seemed to be the story of two characters who both consistently made poor choices but were rewarded anyways. I think this sort of thing is where the attitude of the author can come through and be relevant, because it *is* bad when characters are dumb but the attitude of the story clearly doesn't think they are. That being said, I don't think this is really a big problem with TWI. I don't really like TWI for other reasons that are a bit more abstract - something about the characters and writing in general makes it impossible for me to fully "buy into" what's happening. Foxfire_ posted:For Pith in particular, the weirdest thing to me is a strange but very setting-specific moral stance one character has. It's needed to make a lot of the plot go, but it's weird and other characters in the story specifically call it out as weird. I can sort of understand a potential reasoning here. From her perspective, making people live in bodies that they aren't comfortable with might be an exceptionally bad thing, to the extent that she'd be even less willing to do it than kill people. Though I'm not sure if that's actually the reason in the story (can't remember if it's ever made clear) Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 07:48
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Ytlaya posted:PracGuide: I'm genuinely curious how Black's goals will be in conflict with Catherine's. I can't think of how this would be the case. I guess it's possible that he's opposed to helping the West for some reason?
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Apr 24, 2021 08:22
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Also in twi it's canon that at least some of Erin's being dumb is an act because it's easier for her to get away with poo poo if everyone just thinks she's some dipshit lunatic human, which is kind of great.
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Apr 24, 2021 13:00
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I feel like that's the TWI equivalent of Rothfuss fans excusing Kvothe on the basis of him being an unreliable narrator
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Apr 24, 2021 14:30
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So...completely accurate and relevant to some things, but not some miracle defense against any possible criticism?
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Apr 24, 2021 15:01
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Absum posted:I'm pretty sure Black intends to destroy the Tower rather than become Emperor. See "If the song refused to leave him, then he would silence it." and more recently "I would like every last drop of goblinfire in possession of the Tribes." Catherine may not need an Emperor/Empress per se, but she's definitely going for one and probably still would if Black talked to her about this because it's a safer and easier way of getting those mages she needs.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:26
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Sorry for the double post, but SA wouldn't let me edit the prior post and I think I found the chapter that might echo what we are talking about in Practical Guide to Evil https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/02/26/chapter-69-swan-song/comment-page-1/
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Apr 24, 2021 15:37
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Josh Christ posted:Also in twi it's canon that at least some of Erin's being dumb is an act because it's easier for her to get away with poo poo if everyone just thinks she's some dipshit lunatic human, which is kind of great. Only some of it. She is genuinely ignorant of a lot of things, and has a tendency to get stuck in her beliefs until she's forced.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:16
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THE DEVIL'S LETTUCE IS BEING SMOKED IN YOUR INN ERIN
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Apr 24, 2021 20:20
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Erin being the kid who believed everything that DARE class told her is hilarious and an example of a good character flaw.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:28
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One other PracGuide comment from the most recent chapter - I'm pretty sure that Catherine explicitly revealing her plan for Akua basically guarantees it won't work. I'm not sure which alternative outcome is likely, though. Catherine is also being kind of irrational about that whole situation, though in a way that's understandable. From a sheer "utilitarian" perspective, one that she's usually willing to adopt in most other situations, forgiving Akua would be the best decision, since recent events made it clear that Akua would have remained a genuine ally if they accepted her. But I think that the main reason Catherine is doing this isn't for "long prices" revenge reasons, but because Catherine blames herself for what Akua did and feels like she has an obligation to execute such a perfect punishment. To be clear, Catherine is totally correct that Akua doesn't deserve forgiveness; it's just that having Akua as an ally vs having her as an enemy almost certainly translates to her campaign going better and having fewer allies killed. edit: A prediction - if Catherine and company end up in a direct conflict with Nim/Black Knight, there will be some sort of significant casualty/casualties from it. Villains who lean into their role may guarantee their own defeat, but it also means they'll probably do more damage on the way out. Absum posted:I'm pretty sure Black intends to destroy the Tower rather than become Emperor. See "If the song refused to leave him, then he would silence it." and more recently "I would like every last drop of goblinfire in possession of the Tribes." Catherine may not need an Emperor/Empress per se, but she's definitely going for one and probably still would if Black talked to her about this because it's a safer and easier way of getting those mages she needs. Ohh yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right. Don't know how I missed that. I think this upcoming conflict is likely going to come down to the fact that at the end of the day, Black cares most about the future of Praes specifically. So "will this make it harder/impossible to close the Hell gates in the West" won't factor into his consideration. Catherine might agree with destroying the Tower otherwise, but unfortunately a relatively unified Praes is necessary in order to accomplish the goal she set out to do. avoraciopoctules posted:Sorry for the double post, but SA wouldn't let me edit the prior post and I think I found the chapter that might echo what we are talking about in Practical Guide to Evil I'm not sure if the situations here are really similar. The current Catherine would probably agree with Black's reasoning from this chapter. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 22:12
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Josh Christ posted:Also in twi it's canon that at least some of Erin's being dumb is an act because it's easier for her to get away with poo poo if everyone just thinks she's some dipshit lunatic human, which is kind of great. To give an example, the last thing that was happening where I stopped was Erin ended up in another town, decided she wanted to stay a bit, and sent a few messages back to friends in her town. Except she either forgot or completely ignored the barmaid she left in the inn without money or food in a freezing winter, and who was not allowed to enter the only nearby town. It wasn't like I put it down there and said "no, this is a step too far" but it was just one more thing. And that was shortly after she nearly burned down an alchemist shop because she just started throwing ingredients together while completely ignoring the alchemist trying to stop her, or decided to convert a possibly crazy antman to Christianity and never take any precautions that this wouldn't backfire spectacularly, drove a soulbonded skeleton to trying to murder her by treating him like dirt despite the fact he was clearly a thinking being, and so many other things that makes it clear she never, ever imagines anything she does might have consequences. And of course they almost never do (at least that hurt her), because... well, I was going to say because the author apparently loves her, but honestly it's probably simpler than that in that she probably would have died within a few days and it wouldn't have made for much of a story. I mean, maybe the author writes her that way intentionally and other readers consider it an interesting character flaw or whatever, but it's just makes the story frustrating for me. And somehow she's still a less frustrating character than Ryouka.
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Apr 25, 2021 00:08
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Ryoka sucked at the start but she got a lot better, eventually. Erin didn't really seem to improve though. The Mary Sue-ness of (mid-late TWI spoiler) only Erin thinking of using the magical teleportation door as an ambush tool for the not-Gnoll invasion despite there being myriad super experienced adventurers and strategists and soldiers around was incredibly dumb. Also how she managed to attack Garen's force and not die despite not having a combat class was really stupid. Other characters in TWI, the plot armor isn't so in your face, but with Erin it's insane how much she gets away with.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:30
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Bremen posted:To give an example, the last thing that was happening where I stopped was Erin ended up in another town, decided she wanted to stay a bit, and sent a few messages back to friends in her town. Except she either forgot or completely ignored the barmaid she left in the inn without money or food in a freezing winter, and who was not allowed to enter the only nearby town. It wasn't like I put it down there and said "no, this is a step too far" but it was just one more thing. And that was shortly after she nearly burned down an alchemist shop because she just started throwing ingredients together while completely ignoring the alchemist trying to stop her, or decided to convert a possibly crazy antman to Christianity and never take any precautions that this wouldn't backfire spectacularly, drove a soulbonded skeleton to trying to murder her by treating him like dirt despite the fact he was clearly a thinking being, and so many other things that makes it clear she never, ever imagines anything she does might have consequences. And of course they almost never do (at least that hurt her), because... well, I was going to say because the author apparently loves her, but honestly it's probably simpler than that in that she probably would have died within a few days and it wouldn't have made for much of a story. All of those things end up having severe consequences, most of them near-imminently, to be fair. But yeah I can see why it would get extremely frustrating to see stuff like that keep happening and the book being so long that you aren't reasonably gonna see the payoffs until hundreds of thousands of words later.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:35
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The Shortest Path posted:All of those things end up having severe consequences, most of them near-imminently, to be fair. But yeah I can see why it would get extremely frustrating to see stuff like that keep happening and the book being so long that you aren't reasonably gonna see the payoffs until hundreds of thousands of words later. yes, this is what i meant before...very few of Erin's bad decisions are without consequences, but they aren't immediate and it's really easy to conclude early on that none of those decisions are ever going to come back to bite her because she feels like a character that can do no wrong in the early chapters.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:41
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Cicero posted:Ryoka sucked at the start but she got a lot better, eventually. No one thought of it because it required the goblins to set up the ambush, and Erin is the only person that actually thinks goblins are worthy of trust.
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Apr 25, 2021 02:03
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