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poonchasta posted:So since we can't see each other's faces, how many people in this thread are black or part black and offended by Awkafina's minstrel act? And also, does dropping her black accent on a dime when it suits her mean that maybe she was forced to work with a vocal coach during pre production in one of her mainstream movie roles? Also lol thinking she was born doing AAVE. Look at eddie huang for someone at least trying. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 15:21
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First up, go gently caress yourself with this "exasperated facepalm" bullshit. I'm asking questions in good faith, don't be an rear end in a top hat. FilthyImp posted:But the video was her donning a false rap persona. So there's a very incongruous clash between the two going on. "Rap persona" is not racially coded by itself, you need to show that Awkwafina has been doing more than that if you want to push the 'racial appropriation' angle. It's not enough to say "I think there's a fine line with "I make music with an exaggerated persona for fun" that gets kind of messy", you have to actually shown that the line has been crossed. If the best you've got is "In part of the video she sings, in another part she talks" you got nothing. E: assuming that she just makes music just "for fun" is also pretty dismissive, according to her wikipedia page she'd been rapping for over a decade by the time 'My Vag' went viral. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 15:25
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:First up, go gently caress yourself with this "exasperated facepalm" bullshit. I'm asking questions in good faith, don't be an rear end in a top hat. Once again It seems black folks cannot be listened to they must be explained to about what is racism. The fact that she can take off and put on a culture whenever she wants to for profit when those same people She mimics are not allowed that same upward mobility just by doing the basic stuff that she's doing is appropriation. Black people get poo poo on for talking with any kind of accent, we can't have weird letters in our names, but she's a movie star now. Ludacris goes by chris bridges now... Again, if any other person, not even a comedian, came out using a hyperbolic Asian accent as their thing. No one would loving believe them. Because it's a black accent everybody's fine with putting it on. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 15:33
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The earliest interviews I can find are from 2015. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFmSto_vm4Y I understand frustration about cultural appropriation and racism. But if you are going to accuse someone, I would just want some more explicit examples. From my limited knowledge of her career, all I can see is she sometimes uses AAVE, but I haven't seen an example of her mimic anything black in an offensive way. I just would like to understand what she has done that is offensive because I would like to learn more.
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Apr 21, 2021 15:43
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Hoop Dreams posted:she sometimes uses AAVE, but I haven't seen an example of her mimic anything black in an offensive way Read what you wrote again. Does she need to use the n word to be offensive now?
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Apr 21, 2021 15:44
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bushisms.txt posted:Read what you wrote again. Does she need to use the n word to be offensive now? I mean that's not helpful. I'm just asking for an example or more detailed description and you keep dodging it? Like using AAVE if you are not black is not inherently racist is it? People's vocabulary is a very personal thing?
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Apr 21, 2021 15:48
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Hoop Dreams posted:Like using AAVE if you are not black is not inherently racist is it? People's vocabulary is a very personal thing? You keep writing things that you keep answering your own self. How does she get to apply an obvious stereotypical voice for success. Are we cool with Mickey Rooney now?
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Apr 21, 2021 15:53
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bushisms.txt posted:You keep writing things that you keep answering your own self. How does she get to apply an obvious stereotypical voice for success. Are we cool with Mickey Rooney now? How is her voice stereotypically black?
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Apr 21, 2021 15:54
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This feels like one of those arguments that absolutely everyone involved is worse off for having
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Apr 21, 2021 15:55
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bushisms.txt posted:The fact that she can take off and put on a culture whenever she wants to for profit when those same people She mimics are not allowed that same upward mobility just by doing the basic stuff that she's doing is appropriation. Black people get poo poo on for talking with any kind of accent, we can't have weird letters in our names, but she's a movie star now. Ludacris goes by chris bridges now... It’s very good that people are strongly against racism and such, but you gotta be factual or it undermines the cause. You don’t think Asian women get discriminated against for having accents and “weird letters in their names”? Having a stage name didn’t seem to have held back DMX, or LL Cool J, or Prince, or whoever. Outside the music sphere, we have The Rock and Vin Diesel and countless of other examples. Obviously they were certainly been held back in other ways, but the stage names were a selling point and often served as cross promotion for whatever latest album or single (deepest, bluest...). When we zero on your actual issue, it’s that black people in general don’t have enough upwards mobility. I agree with that. But, if we remove that specific issue, then we’re left with a complaint that rappers are performing music for profit(!)- and many of them are not ‘authentic’(!!!).
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Apr 21, 2021 15:58
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quote:Like, remember when Miley Cyrus was all about twerking and living her freedom and now she's, like, some kind of pseudo country-pop stay at home mom type? I guess I learned something today 
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Apr 21, 2021 15:58
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Hoop Dreams posted:How is her voice stereotypically black? Notice how Eminem, a literal Oscar winner, still talks in AAVE outside of his art. I'm not going to try to define the hairline where black culture begins and ends in that video, this is cineD, y'all should be able to pick up on the basics. multijoe posted:This feels like one of those arguments that absolutely everyone involved is worse off for having Absolutely. This is one of the few decent spaces still left on the internet for a black trans woman, I will try to educate and fight for it. SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s very good that people are strongly against racism and such, but you gotta be factual or it undermines the cause. You don’t think Asian women get discriminated against for having accents and “weird letters in their names”? More white nonsense. The model minority is a thing for a reason. Please don't try to start a who has it worse discussion, it never goes the way folks think it will. Smg you're great for playing devil's advocate for films, but that doesn't fly on issues of race, so maybe stop. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:00
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RBA Starblade posted:I guess I learned something today Nah, Miley Cyrus has a whole "classic rock" thing going on now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ir1qkPXPVM
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Apr 21, 2021 16:04
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josh04 posted:Nah, Miley Cyrus has a whole "classic rock" thing going on now. lol I guess I didn't learn something today
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Apr 21, 2021 16:06
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bushisms.txt posted:More white nonsense. What is this racist poo poo?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:18
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She's a drat good singer too.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:18
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PeterCat posted:What is this racist poo poo? Lol no this forum has a clause for saying the n word, y'all can't pull this.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:24
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bushisms.txt posted:Smg you're great for playing devil's advocate for films, but that doesn't fly on issues of race, so maybe stop. Is this because you think SMG is white?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:39
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PeterCat posted:What is this racist poo poo? hahahahahah "white nonsense" is not racist, let's at least assume a baseline of good faith here Snowglobe of Doom posted:First up, go gently caress yourself with this "exasperated facepalm" bullshit. I'm asking questions in good faith, don't be an rear end in a top hat. Hoop Dreams posted:I mean that's not helpful. I'm just asking for an example or more detailed description and you keep dodging it? I intend this in the most polite way* but maybe the Comic Book movie thread is not the best place to educate yourself on these issues. I totally understand that the topic came up and certain things about it weren't clear and it felt natural to continue the discussion and ask questions, but in case you don't know "just asking questions" is a common racist tactic for poking holes in people's philosophy, and when people are already worked up (since this is an emotionally charged issue) they are not going to necessarily have the patience to politely explain things to you (nor is it any POC's job to do so). *I have the luxury of being calm and polite because I am a straight white dude and none of this directly effects me, understand not everyone has this luxury and they are not just being a dick to you for no reason
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Apr 21, 2021 16:50
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You don't have to be able to enumerate something to refer to it - whether or not you can provide a definite description of 'racist' such that Awkwafina falls into it has no bearing on anyone's ability to look at that act and go "huh, that's racist". The obstacle to productive discussion here is the train of posters fixated on the idea that the most important thing is to determine whether or not Awkwafina has "done nothing wrong", even though by definition living in a racist society we are all in ways culpable for the racism in that society - in a practical way, not in a self-flaggelating way. Her act can be racist without us agreeing that she has to be struck from the register of the acceptable! First and foremost, someone should be able to say "that's a bit racist" without getting mobbed by an army of miniature Socrates.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:53
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Guy A. Person posted:hahahahahah "white nonsense" is not racist, let's at least assume a baseline of good faith here If you are going to join in the lecture you really should examine your supa-hot-fire-derived avatar and the use of black imagery in memes.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:56
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Please gently caress off.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:57
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poonchasta posted:Is this because you think SMG is white? No, i assume they're a chat bot. But what they're espousing has a direct line to White supremacy.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:05
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FilthyImp posted:There's nothing inherently wrong about black weebs or Japanese cholos or whatever.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:23
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bushisms.txt posted:No, i assume they're a chat bot. But what they're espousing has a direct line to White supremacy. I'm not sure I follow. The 'Model minority' sledgehammer is certainly real, but bringing up how other groups have similar struggles isn't meant to create a competition, nor exasperation at the futility of it all, but to produce a point of solidarity against white supremacy (Which we can't win without white people). What does success look like once the demand is achieved where only authentic people are able to exploit black culture for profit? KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 17:23
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KVeezy3 posted:
Wait so you're suggesting black people are exploiting their own culture?
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Apr 21, 2021 17:25
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bushisms.txt posted:Wait so you're suggesting black people are exploiting their own culture? We are all conscripted and coerced by existing structures -- ideological and material -- to participate in the exploitation of basically every aspect of our existence and culture.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right, but if the actual issue is white supremacy under capitalism, then why not just say that? As you yourself note, her rap parody is just "fairly offensive" and she maybe could have, like, helped her career by issuing an apology. But there's nothing particularly anticapitalistic in that. The unstated assumption is that, if she had just politely 'sung Asian', and made money for her corporate masters that way, it would be good. It can be an issue on both a macro and micro level? If you acknowledge and understand that systems are exploitative and oppressive no matter how positive the intentions of the actors who operate within it then the framing you're pushing is somewhat obtuse. It's not about if she had made her money and fame the "right" way but that doesn't excuse the larger effects of her actions. And her actions amount to way more than just "tastelessness". SuperMechagodzilla posted:When we zero on your actual issue, it’s that black people in general don’t have enough upwards mobility. I agree with that. But, if we remove that specific issue, then we’re left with a complaint that rappers are performing music for profit(!)- and many of them are not ‘authentic’(!!!). Let's talk about that authenticity piece. The initial rap parody "My Vag" is more corny than anything but her way to capitalize on that attention was to adopt a public persona that overtly leaned on stereotypical views of how Black people (particularly rappers) dress or behave. Which doesn't even make sense in this day and age - Jidenna suits up like a Harlem Renaissance dandy, Drake and others dress out of a J. Crew catalogue for the most part, etc - so there's no need to pull the "hood" aesthetic along with the blaccent besides attempting to leverage a very narrow view of what Black American identity is so as to be seen as more authentic in her performance. Except that said authenticity is meant to appeal to average middle white Americans whose only Black (or other minority) friend is their coworker or dorm mate from college. Minority communities, Black and Asian alike, called this poo poo out from almost day one asking for accountability so that they could more enthusiastically support her. https://twitter.com/its_willyu/status/1162522897589477378 Compare her normal persona in that video to how she raps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-taYShNaPU So clearly it's an act and something that relies on a tradition of minstrelsy, which she could've avoided. That doesn't make her responsible for all racism everywhere ever in the history of the US, however there is an obvious impact in that it reinforces negative stereotypes about Black people in addition to the fact that she's able to capitalize on that image whereas the trappings of (clothing, language, culture, etc) are used as rationale to label Black and minority communities as lazy, unintelligent, unprofessional, etc. I've not used "appropriation" in any of my posts because while you could argue that it is a relevant frame to the discussion at hand it narrows the focus down to the intent behind individual action, which is not helpful. People keep bringing up the Lonely Island because Awkwafina's stuff is supposed to be comedic to some extent (supposedly) but the obvious corollary here is Iggy Azalea. Which, again, people of all stripes pegged as bullshit from the jump. So what's the difficulty in identifying a similar situation in this case? Hoop Dreams posted:I mean that's not helpful. I'm just asking for an example or more detailed description and you keep dodging it? Like using AAVE if you are not black is not inherently racist is it? People's vocabulary is a very personal thing? This got answered several times over: bushisms.txt posted:Once again It seems black folks cannot be listened to they must be explained to about what is racism. The fact that she can take off and put on a culture whenever she wants to for profit when those same people She mimics are not allowed that same upward mobility just by doing the basic stuff that she's doing is appropriation. Black people get poo poo on for talking with any kind of accent, we can't have weird letters in our names, but she's a movie star now. Ludacris goes by chris bridges now... Basically. Anyway we should probably take this to the music forum or TGRS or something, sorry for the extended derail. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Blade is casting more people and moving into pre-production. I've not seen Hunters or Watchmen but people seemed to like them so maybe it's a good pick? Is Goyer involved in the writing at all? Also in looking up stuff about this I just realized that Mahershala Ali is 47 years old. Obviously he's a great choice for the dramatic portions of the role but I am keeping my expectations super super low for any fight scenes. There's only so much training and "supplements" Marvel/Disney can put an actor through and Snipes set such a high bar on the physicality that I don't think anyone could measure up short of like...one of the guys from The Raid movies.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:27
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Mechafunkzilla posted:We are all conscripted and coerced by existing structures -- ideological and material -- to participate in the exploitation of basically every aspect of our existence and culture. You folks never disappoint. I'll see myself out.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:29
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bushisms.txt posted:You folks never disappoint. I'll see myself out. 
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Apr 21, 2021 17:33
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bushisms.txt posted:Wait so you're suggesting black people are exploiting their own culture? I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Black Panther film.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:33
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Mat Cauthon posted:Minority communities, Black and Asian alike, called this poo poo out from almost day one asking for accountability so that they could more enthusiastically support her.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:37
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bushisms.txt posted:More white nonsense. The model minority is a thing for a reason. Please don't try to start a who has it worse discussion, it never goes the way folks think it will. I have not been saying "Asians have it worse". My point from the beginning, has been that minorities of all stripes 'have it worse' under white supremacy, and it's not really progressive to pit black men against asian women against trans women (and so-forth) when what you're actually talking about is class: Aquafina and Vin Diesel are both millionaire Hollywood celebrities with 'weird names', while average people are living in poverty and getting shot dead by cops. Again, I agree on that. Inequality is bad. And it can be argued that a rich person 'pretending to be poor' adds insult to that injury. (So why don't we take things to a logical conclusion and forbid actors from playing characters beneath their income level? Why is your criticism limited to the sphere of culture? In other words: why not address inequality within cultures and across cultures, in search of new forms of solidarity?) In that case, I would say goal is not to drag Vin Diesel down by pressuring him to change his name back to the 'classier' Mark Sinclair (or the opposite? I've seen contradictory claims in the thread), but to simply uplift others so that they can experience a similar level of security. Right? Otherwise, we're getting into dicey territory where the name Nora Lum and the song WAP are "authentic" but the name Belcalis Almánzar and the song My Vag are "inauthentic" or whatever, and it's all but completely divorced from progressive struggle. None of it is "authentic". What is "authentic womanhood" or whatever? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 17:39
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Paolomania posted:If you are going to join in the lecture you really should examine your supa-hot-fire-derived avatar and the use of black imagery in memes. Not an unfair point, I will educate myself further and change my avatar if necessary
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Apr 21, 2021 17:39
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Halloween Jack posted:That's absurd. It's absurd to have standards for popular celebrities?
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Apr 21, 2021 17:43
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Mat Cauthon posted:It's absurd to have standards for popular celebrities? I mean, kinda of, but not in the way I think either of you are talking about 
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Apr 21, 2021 17:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I have not been saying "Asians have it worse". My point from the beginning, has been that minorities of all stripes 'have it worse' under white supremacy, and it's not really progressive to pit black men against asian women against trans women (and so-forth) when what you're actually talking about is class: Aquafina and Vin Diesel are both millionaire Hollywood celebrities with 'weird names', while average people are living in poverty and getting shot dead by cops. Again, I agree on that. Inequality is bad. And it can be argued that a rich person 'pretending to be poor' adds insult to that injury. (So why don't we take things to a logical conclusion and forbid actors from playing characters beneath their income level? Why is your criticism limited to the sphere of culture? In other words: why not address inequality within cultures and across cultures, in search of new forms of solidarity?) You might want to check your autocorrect around her name
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Apr 21, 2021 17:48
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Mat Cauthon posted:It's absurd to have standards for popular celebrities? That's the standard of accountability? Like, who's grading this? What if some people aren't convinced? I'm white, and I think imitating an AAVE accent to make money (among other reasons) is racist. I would still think this if a thousand black people told me it wasn't.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I have not been saying "Asians have it worse". My point from the beginning, has been that minorities of all stripes 'have it worse' under white supremacy, and it's not really progressive to pit black men against asian women against trans women (and so-forth) when what you're actually talking about is class: Aquafina and Vin Diesel are both millionaire Hollywood celebrities with 'weird names', while average people are living in poverty and getting shot dead by cops. Again, I agree on that. Inequality is bad. And it can be argued that a rich person 'pretending to be poor' adds insult to that injury. (So why don't we take things to a logical conclusion and forbid actors from playing characters beneath their income level? Why is your criticism limited to the sphere of culture? In other words: why not address inequality within cultures and across cultures, in search of new forms of solidarity?) The problem isn't that the act is inauthentic; I'm sure you know that any attempt to fix down a notion of authenticity goes to hilarious places very quickly. Similarly, one cannot grade the racisms against each other. The problem isn't inherent at all. It's that right now, in actually-existing US society which is universally acknowledged to be extremely racist, there are a handful of things that are recognised to have a historical context that means exploiting them for entertainment if you are not black (although sometimes even then) is impolite and insulting to black people, and so racist. The problem is in hearing the word "racism" and immediately wheeling out the big rhetorical guns. We say "that's capitalism!" five times a day on this forum without accosting each person to determine whether they'd be better off joining a worker's council than complaining at CNN. Awkwafina's brain is not necessarily a site of struggle.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:57
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Halloween Jack posted:It's an absurd standard. So this woman has enthusiastic black fans, who want to continue enthusiastically supporting her singing with a blaccent. But in order for their fandom (and more importantly, her profit) to be ethical, she needs to issue a public statement of contrition/indebtedness to black culture. She has fans who want to support her but feel that they can't because she won't acknowledge the harm done in reinforcing stereotypes that harm Black people. She has fans who want to support her because of the importance of AAPI representation but can't because the way she got famous inflames tension between minority communities as well as reinforcing a model minority myth. That's criticism levied by people of all races but obviously Black and Asian people have been the most prominent voices because the impact affects them more heavily. No one is asking for her to grovel - simply saying "I realize that what I did was harmful, in the future I'm going to do better to listen and work to make space for all minorites who embody their culture to be embraced" would do wonders. That's not the standard of accountability, that's the aspiration. People are still going to support her and hope she does well but with reservations. No one is getting "cancelled". It's great that you understand the issue, broadly speaking. Gold stars all around. Not everyone does and this larger discussion speaks to why it's so difficult to get accountability or change anything.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:02
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