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Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

Jar Jar was fine

Not all of his scenes were fine

But Jar Jar was fine

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006
Jar Jar is kind of a weird character when you draw the parallels between TMP and ANH. Because he is taking the position of Luke Skywalker as this hapless rube whose path crosses with two people who just escaped a space adventure and need to find a Princess. Except he also knows where to find this Princess and sets them up with their transportation, so he's also being positioned as Obi-Wan and Han Solo in different ways.

Anyway, he's still not the protagonist because the functionally a mystery story with Jedi Sherlock and Holmes against Palpatine who ends up being a real Dr. Moriarty like figure --but it's also a sword and sandals movie and political thriller sometimes.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Timeless Appeal posted:

Jar Jar is kind of a weird character when you draw the parallels between TMP and ANH. Because he is taking the position of Luke Skywalker as this hapless rube whose path crosses with two people who just escaped a space adventure and need to find a Princess. Except he also knows where to find this Princess and sets them up with their transportation, so he's also being positioned as Obi-Wan and Han Solo in different ways.

Anyway, he's still not the protagonist because the functionally a mystery story with Jedi Sherlock and Holmes against Palpatine who ends up being a real Dr. Moriarty like figure --but it's also a sword and sandals movie and political thriller sometimes.

Quigon is just a focal character. He gets mistaken for the protagonist because he's a white dude.

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012



I love the scene where Qui Gon uses the Jedi mind trick on Boss Nass. From Qui Gon's perspective he's gotten one over on the dumb primitive, but from Boss Nass' view he's sent the most annoying Gungan and two racist intruders into certain death and only has to give up one crappy shuttle in order to do it.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso
Hey, nobody likes an armed missionary.

Blood Boils posted:

Ani + Obi shouldn't even be considered friends from work, they've never had voluntary employment. They're warrior monks who were recruited as children!

If you want comparable relationships you need to look at soldiers and clergy
Indeed, they're monks and Anakin is Obi-Wan's novice. Their relationship isn't quite father and son, or older and younger brother, or boss and employee, it's a weird and dysfunctional thing of its own. It has very straightforward historical analogues, just not ones that immediately make sense to someone raised in a modern nuclear family.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Quigon is just a focal character. He gets mistaken for the protagonist because he's a white dude.

What defines a protagonist?

Glottis
May 29, 2002

No. It's necessary.
Yam Slacker

2house2fly posted:

What defines a protagonist?

well I recently watched Tenet, so I'm pretty sure it's when the character is literally named "Protagonist"

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The worst Star Wars movie was released in 1983, and the best/last one was released in 2005.

You have this interesting juxtaposition of steadfast confidence in your opinion and a remarkable bad taste in cinema. It’s kinda fascinating to see.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Quigon is just a focal character. He gets mistaken for the protagonist because he's a white dude.
Eh, I don't fully agree with this because like I said there's a mystery aspect to the plot and he's probably the most driving force there.

But when Jar Jar Binks is read in racial or ethnic terms--not to unpack design or voice--some of it does come from his Friday like role in the film. He is incredibly helpful and our Jedi heroes would be lost without him, but he's never acknowledged as such. The Jedi take his support for their adventures as a given. I don't think he necessarily drives the plot, but he's more active in its movement than at least the majority of the characrers. So, I think there is definitely something to your statement.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 21, 2021

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

sponges posted:

You have this interesting juxtaposition of steadfast confidence in your opinion and a remarkable bad taste in cinema. It’s kinda fascinating to see.

That's everyone in CD.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
Actually I have good taste but no confidence

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The worst Star Wars movie was released in 1983, and the best/last one was released in 1984.
:hmmyes:

TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

Timeless Appeal posted:

Eh, I don't fully agree with this because like I said there's a mystery aspect to the plot and he's probably the most driving force there.

But when Jar Jar Binks is read in racial or ethnic terms--not to unpack design or voice--some of it does come from his Friday like role in the film. He is incredibly helpful and our Jedi heroes would be lost without him, but he's never acknowledged as such. The Jedi take his support for their adventures as a given. I don't think he necessarily drives the plot, but he's more active in its movement than at least the majority of the characters. So, I think there is definitely something to your statement.

One of the things that makes TPM such a dysfunctional mess is that five characters partake in the form of protagonist, but none of them consistently do it for the whole story. Anakin is the blessed child lifted out of obscurity who saves the day by disabling the enemy army, but he has no agency for basically the entire film. Qui Gon Jim drives the plot on Tatooine, but is also the mentor who can no longer protect the hero in the final act. Obi Wan defeats the black knight and avenges his mentor, but makes few decisions and generally acts as Qui Gon's Watson for the vast majority of the film. Jar Jar is the plucky underdog who gets by on heart and luck, but he also is unbearable. Padme is the dispossessed royal who refuses to abandon her people and insists on taking action, but also basically doesn't have an arc. The lack of a focal point character whose arc anchors the story makes the story janky and awkward. This helps to explain why the the climax is so fractured and tonally dissonant - the story doesn't know who matters, so the audience is pulled in five directions.

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The worst Star Wars movie was released in 1983, the best one was released in 2002 and the last one was released in 2005.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

You need to let go of these ideas that there has to be a protagonist, or that characters have to have arcs, or that the audience needs someone to relate to. Other kinds of movie are possible

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Padme does have an arc

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

TheLoquid posted:

One of the things that makes TPM such a dysfunctional mess is that five characters partake in the form of protagonist, but none of them consistently do it for the whole story. Anakin is the blessed child lifted out of obscurity who saves the day by disabling the enemy army, but he has no agency for basically the entire film. Qui Gon Jim drives the plot on Tatooine, but is also the mentor who can no longer protect the hero in the final act. Obi Wan defeats the black knight and avenges his mentor, but makes few decisions and generally acts as Qui Gon's Watson for the vast majority of the film. Jar Jar is the plucky underdog who gets by on heart and luck, but he also is unbearable. Padme is the dispossessed royal who refuses to abandon her people and insists on taking action, but also basically doesn't have an arc. The lack of a focal point character whose arc anchors the story makes the story janky and awkward. This helps to explain why the the climax is so fractured and tonally dissonant - the story doesn't know who matters, so the audience is pulled in five directions.
Eh, I don't think any of those choices are really the secret reason TPM is not a great movie. When we think of protagonist as a character whose wants and desires trigger the movement of the story, OG Star Wars has R2-D2 as the film's clear protagonist until Obi-Wan shifts in and really takes the role, and then he dies and Luke has to step up.

Funny enough, I do think you could get a much cleaner movie of actually just making Jar Jar Binks Anakin. Anakin is part of a tribe of outlanders on the poor side of Naboo who hate the stupid royal family, yadda yadda. So to support SMG's point, you could imagine a version of the movie where Anakin takes a pretty similar role, and many would call him the protagonist or at least the main character.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

The second act of Return of the Jedi sags a bit. Nothing in the prequels is quite so sloppy.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

The "Episode I has no protagonist" argument seems weird to me, since it completely ignores the existence of ensemble films. Like, even just sticking with genre schlock, who's the protagonist of Ghostbusters, or The Avengers?

Even the RLM-type arguments for why none of the characters count as a protagonist don't really stand up to scrutiny.

The Jedi aren't protagonists because they're "just on some mission" and aren't personally invested, and are "boring".
Tons of movies have protagonists who are motivated by their occupation. James Bond certainly doesn't have a personal connection to every mission he undertakes, but nobody would say he isn't a protagonist.
And being a "boring' character doesn't preclude someone from being a protagonist - one of RLM's examples of Acceptable Protagonists is Neo from The Matrix, and that guy is the platonic ideal of a Blank Slate character.

Amidala isn't a protagonist, because she's "just some foreign queen" that the movie isn't specifically about.
This is pretty dumb - the entire conflict of the movie revolves around the planet she's the Queen of. I guess her personal investment in the situation doesn't count because...?

Anakin isn't a protagonist because he's introduced too late in the movie and he doesn't understand the situation or world he's brought into.
A character being brought into an unfamiliar world is literally what they say a genre movie protagonist should be, so Anakin fits that pretty well.
Also, Han Solo's not introduced until nearly 50 minutes into A New Hope, but he's certainly one of the protagonist characters there.

They don't even mention Jar Jar, who fits all of their alleged criteria:
  • An "every day kind of schlub"
  • Down on his luck / in a bad place in his life / nothing goes right for him
  • Confronted with an obstacle or struggle (his planet is invaded by robots)
  • Finds himself at a low point, where it seems like all is lost (Realizes that the gungans will be killed too if the Trade Federation wins)
  • Grows and makes a change (bridges the Naboo and the Gungans, becoming a general in the army)

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

Basebf555 posted:

Actually I have good taste but no confidence

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

My opinions are all the correct ones.

Kharn_The_Betrayer
Nov 15, 2013


Fun Shoe
I have confidence because i have no taste.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Basebf555 posted:

Actually I have good taste but no confidence

Yeah? Well I have no confidence too, but also have bad taste!

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008
I have good taste and confidence and I can safely say that the Disney Sequels are Bad Movies

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!


I’ve never eaten a movie what do they taste like. How do you you tell when it’s a good one

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

DeimosRising posted:

I've never eaten a movie what do they taste like. How do you you tell when it’s a good one
The Gentlemen
Review by demi adejuyigbe ★★ 53

GUY RITCHIE: hey man, i made that pizza you wanted
ME: ah righteous, thank y–
GUY: a bup bup bup– before you eat it, i should apologize
ME: what? why, your pizzas are always pretty good
GUY: yeah well i was worried the recipe was getting a little stale
ME: yeah
GUY: so i tried to mix it up a bunch
ME: yeah
GUY: and i got a liiiiittle self-indulgent
ME: yeah
GUY: then i threw in a little playful racism in there
ME:
GUY: and a dash of rape from– which was honestly not necessary
ME:
GUY:just wanted to see what would happen
ME: you–
GUY: and then i told jeremy to set the oven
JEREMY STRONG: yeah and i set it too high
GUY: oh, waaaaay too high
JEREMY: haha yeah. thought it would cook faster, i dunno
GUY: here's the kicker, the lid on my playful racism shaker was loose! so a BUNCH got in there. like, so much
ME:
GUY: basically, it's gonna taste weird
ME:
GUY: don't be mad at meeeeee
ME:
GUY:
ME:
GUY: colin helped too
COLIN FARRELL: i made the pepperonis
GUY: dude, he killed it, the pepperonis are so good
ME: why do you have a playful racism shaker

TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

Timeless Appeal posted:

Eh, I don't think any of those choices are really the secret reason TPM is not a great movie. When we think of protagonist as a character whose wants and desires trigger the movement of the story, OG Star Wars has R2-D2 as the film's clear protagonist until Obi-Wan shifts in and really takes the role, and then he dies and Luke has to step up.

Funny enough, I do think you could get a much cleaner movie of actually just making Jar Jar Binks Anakin. Anakin is part of a tribe of outlanders on the poor side of Naboo who hate the stupid royal family, yadda yadda. So to support SMG's point, you could imagine a version of the movie where Anakin takes a pretty similar role, and many would call him the protagonist or at least the main character.

I agree, but its one of the things that detracts from the story. If it made up for it in other, more interesting ways then I wouldn't care. But, regrettably, it doesn't.

quote:

You need to let go of these ideas that there has to be a protagonist, or that characters have to have arcs, or that the audience needs someone to relate to. Other kinds of movie are possible

This seems like a cope to me. Other kinds of movies can and should exist, but TPM is very clearly gesturing at having a traditional narrative. It falls flat because the execution was bad. If it tried to do something completely different, it would be a different conversation.

quote:

The "Episode I has no protagonist" argument seems weird to me, since it completely ignores the existence of ensemble films. Like, even just sticking with genre schlock, who's the protagonist of Ghostbusters, or The Avengers?

Sure, you can absolutely have an ensemble film where a group of people are working towards a common end. The problem is that TPM is a bad movie, so when people brainstorm ways to fix it they typically bring in movies that center around a specific protagonist because it's an easy comp.

The problem with treating TPM as an ensemble film is that there isn't a whole lot of time spent giving each character something valuable to do that is specific to their skillset. Padme is a great example; her role in the climax is to capture Nute Gunray at gunpoint for some reason, which is completely unrelated to her role in the rest of the movie. Anakin is the hotshot pilot, but he's also a little kid whose role in the climax is completely accidental. Obi Wan and Qui Gon have conflicting ideas about the role of the Jedi etc, but there is a clear master/student relationship that deflates any interesting tension about what course the group will take. In other words, it doesn't work as an ensemble film because the characters don't really work as an ensemble. They don't complement each other in interesting ways or have to learn to accept each other's unique skills and values. I guess the closest thing you could point to is the Jedi eventually trusting Jar Jar to lead the Gungan army, but he doesn't work as a character for reasons unrelated to a high-level description of his arc/story role.

TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Apr 21, 2021

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

2house2fly posted:

What defines a protagonist?

Grabbing an easy summary of “focal character” off of Wikipedia:

“[The focal character is] almost always also the protagonist of the story; however, in cases where the "focal character" and "protagonist" are separate, the focal character's emotions and ambitions are not meant to be empathized with by the audience to as high an extent as the protagonist (this is the main difference between the two character terms). The focal character is mostly created to simply be the "excitement" of the story, though not necessarily the main character about whom the audience is emotionally concerned.”

I would of course add that intention has nothing to do with it, while it’s also not purely subjective. The question is how the film‘s narrative is structured.

In the case of Phantom Menace, the Jedi are pretty much the first characters onscreen, and we’re told that they’re diplomats sent by Valorum on behalf of the Republic, etc. But what does that mean to us? How do we feel about Valorum or the Republic at this point in the narrative? It’s of course possible for someone to have an intense empathic reaction to seeing these guys in brown robes, but they would be working against the film here.

On the other hand, Jar Jar was just chilling in the woods when all this poo poo started going down. He knows about as much as the audience does, and we’re brought up to speed on his own story within minutes of his introduction: he’s from the underwater city but the boss hates him, and the Gungan army treats him like poo poo, etc. This puts all the emphasis on Jar Jar’s feelings, even though the Jedi are performing these violent spectacles.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Apr 21, 2021

Shiroc
May 16, 2009

Sorry I'm late
The Jedi have nothing to do with Jar Jar becoming a general. Boss Nass makes him the general because helping bring peace between the Naboo and the Gungans earns Nass' respect.

Padme leads the battle in the palace herself because the trip to Coruscant taught her that trusting the system is a mistake and that direct action gets the goods.

TheLoquid posted:

Obi Wan and Qui Gon have conflicting ideas about the role of the Jedi etc, but there is a clear master/student relationship that deflates any interesting tension about what course the group will take.

This is identifying the exact thing the movie is doing but saying that its wrong. The conflict between different opinions and the master/student role is what drives the relationship between Anakin and Obiwan in the next two movies.

TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

It’s of course possible for someone to have an intense empathic reaction to seeing these guys in brown robes, but they would be working against the film here. On the other hand, Jar Jar was just chilling in the woods when all this poo poo started going down. He knows about as much as the audience does, and we’re brought up to speed on his own story within minutes of his introduction: he’s from the underwater city but the boss hates him, and the Gungan army treats him like poo poo, etc. This puts all the emphasis on Jar Jar’s feelings, even though the Jedi are performing this violent spectacles.

This is all true unless you've seen literally any other star wars movie prior to TPM, which would tend to make you feel very differently about the Jedi and the Republic. Beyond that, the movie constantly centers the Jedi and being a Jedi; Jedi are the guardians of peace, Jedi protect the weak, Jedi intervene on behalf of the sympathetic deposed queen, Jedi do cool poo poo with laser swords, Jedi defend our "protagonist" Jar Jar from the black robed demon, Anakin is set down the path of being a Jedi, and so on. Jar Jar, by contrast, is sidelined and basically is along for the ride until the last act, when he inexplicably is trusted with responsibilities that are manifestly beyond his capabilities as the audience understands them at that point. The movie spends much more time on the conflict between Obi Wan wanting to obey the council and Qui Gon going against them to take Anakin under his wing, which in turn motivates the plot of the rest of the series. Both the text and what the audience is probably going to the bring to the text center the Jedi and make Jar Jar a secondary character who also happens to be deeply annoying.

quote:

Padme leads the battle in the palace herself because the trip to Coruscant taught her that trusting the system is a mistake and that direct action gets the goods.

Eesh I guess. It's still pretty out of nowhere that she's suddenly leading the charge into the palace as part of like an infiltration special forces op. Considering that she's, you know, the queen.

Also to be clear, I'm not saying that the Master/student thing is "wrong," I'm saying that it detracts from TPM working as an ensemble film because there's no tension about whether Obi Wan will go against Qui Gon. Ensemble movies typically use interpersonal conflicts to deepen the characters and make their final coming-together more emotionally satisfying; in TPM, the closest we get is Obi Wan agreeing to follow Qui Gon's dying wish, but it's not like he's ever threatening to quit the mission because Qui Gon is disobeying the council. It's thematically appropriate to the later films, but that doesn't mean it's interesting in this film.


e: VV The fact that the Nabooians take great pains to hide Padme's true identity throughout the movie makes it even more preposterous that she would suddenly be on the front lines of battle!

TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Apr 22, 2021

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

A Queen who lives half her life in disguise and subterfuge to throw off assassins and political enemies. Padme’s seen some poo poo.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

ruddiger posted:

A Queen who lives half her life in disguise and subterfuge to throw off assassins and political enemies. Padme’s seen some poo poo.

When you think about it, she's basically Hannah Montana.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

TheLoquid posted:

This is all true unless you've seen literally any other star wars movie prior to TPM, which would tend to make you feel very differently about the Jedi and the Republic.

That has nothing to do with who is, formally, the protagonist of Phantom Menace.

That’s basically like concluding that Newt Gunray’s assistant is the protagonist because you enjoyed a bunch of erotic fan-art of that character prior to watching the film.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

Shiroc posted:

The Jedi have nothing to do with Jar Jar becoming a general. Boss Nass makes him the general because helping bring peace between the Naboo and the Gungans earns Nass' respect.

I remember him being impressed by Amidala's willingness to humble herself, but Jar Jar? I'm pretty sure Nass makes Binks a leader in the coming battle in an attempt to get rid of him

TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That has nothing to do with who is, formally, the protagonist of Phantom Menace.

That’s basically like concluding that Newt Gunray’s assistant is the protagonist because you enjoyed a bunch of erotic fan-art of that character prior to watching the film.

No, I don't think it's basically like that at all, actually.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

TheLoquid posted:

No, I don't think it's basically like that at all, actually.

He's saying character type depends on their role within in the story's structure, not how anyone irl feels about them

TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

Blood Boils posted:

He's saying character type depends on their role within in the story's structure, not how anyone irl feels about them

I'm saying that the prequels explicitly play with imagery from the original trilogy throughout the movies, and pretending like that doesn't impact the audience is farcical at best.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
If you're coming in from the original trilogy then you'll recognise the structure of episode 1 as being the same as episode 4, in which two side characters are the focus of the story for a short while before meeting the true protagonist

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS
No one is pretending that? That would be pretty silly, they're prequels after all, it's right there in the name!

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TheLoquid
Nov 5, 2008

Blood Boils posted:

No one is pretending that? That would be pretty silly, they're prequels after all, it's right there in the name!

It would indeed be silly to suggest that using imagery like lightsaber-wielding guys in brown robes in a Star Wars movie would have no bearing on how the audience reacted to those characters! And yet -

quote:

In the case of Phantom Menace, the Jedi are pretty much the first characters onscreen, and we’re told that they’re diplomats sent by Valorum on behalf of the Republic, etc. But what does that mean to us? How do we feel about Valorum or the Republic at this point in the narrative? It’s of course possible for someone to have an intense empathic reaction to seeing these guys in brown robes, but they would be working against the film here.

quote:

If you're coming in from the original trilogy then you'll recognise the structure of episode 1 as being the same as episode 4, in which two side characters are the focus of the story for a short while before meeting the true protagonist

Comparing Luke to Jar Jar is so obviously self-defeating that I feel silly typing anything more than this.

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