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Too bad Hange died, she was the only smart one left
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Apr 28, 2021 16:21
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Hange's death really was kind of the signal that no truly happy ending was possible anymore, huh? Just kill the embodiment of both human hope and ingenuity before the final battle.
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Apr 28, 2021 16:32
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No more Titans in the real world anymore though, at least in the afterlife she can study titans.
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Apr 28, 2021 16:34
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Long term the planet recovers, but not before the existing biodiversity is largely pushed into extinction including the humans. We're talking cosmic scale it might recover, there is no feasible path to saving the planet for the life that exists there now without them literally banding together to replant huge swaths of greenery. That probably wouldn't even do it because all the animal mechanisms required to support those greenery surviving and spreading are gone too. As we continue to murder it irl, I've become a fan of discussing what actually kills and doesn't kill the planet, in-between domeposting. I'll reiterate: destroying two-thirds of forests is bad, but not global ecological collapse bad. True mass extinctions begin in the ocean. Yes, a great deal of biomes will have been irrecoverably ravaged, and yes, entire regions will become uninhabitable for generations, but as far as humans are concerned the worst effects of both of these are mitigated by the fact that the people who'd inhabit them were also flattened in the process. Can't have mass starvation if all the people who'd have starved are already loving dead. Rapidly mowing down the Amazon for timber and unsustainable ranching? I sleep. Expanding zones of aragonite undersaturation in the southern ocean? Thiamine deficiency detected across the trophic chain, and we have no idea what's causing it? We are so very hosed.
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Apr 28, 2021 20:13
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Yeah the Earth can survive just fine after titans stomp 80% of the forests to smithereens. Assuming they don't have carbon dioxide concentration and microplastics like we do in real life the AoT Earth likely has a much longer time to live than we do lol
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Apr 28, 2021 20:41
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Conspiratiorist posted:As we continue to murder it irl, I've become a fan of discussing what actually kills and doesn't kill the planet, in-between domeposting. Homie they stomped the fuckin oceans to get to the land mass. Paradis is an island they have to go out through the ocean to reach any landmass. Oceans have forests too, I think you could expand his statement to include coral & kelp etc in which case the extinction in the ocean is going to rapidly impact the life on land. I don't believe that the aquatic world pulled a Hithchiker's and magically said "thanks for the fish" and avoided getting stomped. I'm assuming the biodiversity there is hosed too. Immediately no I don't think humanity collapses, but the trickle down effect of the oceans slowly dying if they aren't hosed along with the massive temperature and climate shifts that will come with the lost trees and grass etc...I appreciate the approach but that world is hosed for a long enough time that it's hard to see that version of humanity making it long enough to come out the other side. Eventually the planet is fine, it will out do us all. vvv way less about how many fish swam out of the way than their habitats being smooshed into oblivion just like the land surface The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 21:30
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I'm confident that even after the Rumbling, AoT's world has a healthier ocean ecosystem than ours which has endured a century of trawl and deep sea fishing.
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Apr 28, 2021 21:34
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The Notorious ZSB posted:The rumbling given the consequences that were thrown out in the final chapter looks REALLY loving dumb since it cannot accomplish what he wants it to "setting his people free". He's just doomed them and the rest of humanity to extinction in a few generations barring massive technological advancement beyond anything shown as possible in the story. Also seconding the the-world-is-hosed view of this. Imagine if the modern day amazonas was suddenly nuked. We would be an order of magnitude more hosed from a climate perspective. And that's 4% of the world's land. The rumbling destroyed 80%, and also presumably flattened all mountains and destroyed all ground, plus as someone mentioned has the same effect underwater. For disasters, take your picks from loss of oxygen, massive carbondioxide spike, severe global food shortages due to disrupted wildlife, unexpected second-order events like toxic algae blooming on all the waste products of massive global death and killing majority of fish, deserts spreading across the remaining 20% of earth, climate change gone nuts, wild weather pattern changes due to land feature changes such as mountains being flattened, etc etc. It's not impossible for the species to survive but it will be impossible to maintain a civilized society and most humans will starve, drown or choke to death. Bisse fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 21:56
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lmao 5km high
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Apr 28, 2021 22:00
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And isn’t the mass of Titans supposed to be really light for their size? I think I remember this being talked about by Hange in the first two seasons at some point but at the same time they don’t seem to be lacking any momentum to show it. Armored Titan plows through the gate all the same. If the mass was comically low, maybe the Rumble Titans would float? Either way everything is dumb and every thought process trying to understand it feels bad
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Apr 28, 2021 22:01
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No, really: why are we reading strict scientific accuracy into the series on this one plot point? Why can we suspend our disbelief for humans instantly poofing into immortal giants, but can't take the text's word for it that humanity is able to rebuild after the Rumbling? I don't understand why this is different.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:02
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I think this is something to chalk up to author error, if only because I'm pretty sure Isayama didn't want the ending to be "welp, basically everything is dead and anything that isn't will be in ten years"
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Apr 28, 2021 22:03
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Also should mention that I forgot to read AoT after about the point where Eren gained titan powers. (it was super good and fun, it's just that life happened) At this point the series was just a fun Humans vs Large Zombies deal. And now saw the series is ending, and decided to check in and uh what uh wow uh - the rumbling - nazis running jew concentration camps - time loops - the whole ymir torture rape love thing what the fuuuck - seeing all possible futures - world hosed because dumb teenage love angst emotions 
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Apr 28, 2021 22:07
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Tenkaris posted:And isn’t the mass of Titans supposed to be really light for their size? I think I remember this being talked about by Hange in the first two seasons at some point but at the same time they don’t seem to be lacking any momentum to show it. Armored Titan plows through the gate all the same. We actually see the Titans swimming. It's not something you have to speculate on. It's a lovely ending, yes, but that doesn't mean the response has to be even shittier takes.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:07
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Pththya-lyi posted:Because it sounds dramatic. This is a fair point to make and I get it. Other unrealistic stuff like titan magic and 3D gear gets glossed over, why make a fuss now? Isayama probably did only have "this sounds dramatic" as his reason to include that line about the forests. But the whole ecology question could have been so easily avoided by not bringing that up at all, or by just not going so far on one throwaway line right at the end. And reducing the scale of the rumbling would probably make a lot of other things about the ending make more sense too. (why did most of the rest of the world get destroyed, but not Marley yet? Why are people giving such wishy-washy responses to such a massively apocalyptic genocide event, when maybe Eren coulda murdered "just" 20% of all humanity for his plan to maybe look like a less ridiculous tradeoff?) So this dissatisfaction with the question about the forests really becomes symbolic of the wider problems with the ending overall.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:09
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GimmickMan posted:There's a nonzero chance Isayama is going for a different kind of anthropocene mass extinction event only he isn't making it explicit because no one is even aware it could happen??? Flesnolk posted:I think this is something to chalk up to author error, if only because I'm pretty sure Isayama didn't want the ending to be "welp, basically everything is dead and anything that isn't will be in ten years" Bifauxnen posted:But the whole ecology question could have been so easily avoided by not bringing that up at all, or by just not going so far on one throwaway line right at the end.   I could believe that a mass extinction event was one of the intended themes of the series but ending changes left it as a vestigial mention at best Assepoester fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 22:11
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Pththya-lyi posted:No, really: why are we reading strict scientific accuracy into the series on this one plot point? Why can we suspend our disbelief for humans instantly poofing into immortal giants, but can't take the text's word for it that humanity is able to rebuild after the Rumbling? I don't understand why this is different. I realize at this point with futuresight, time loops and magic slugs, that this is no longer the case, but there's still that element to the series of real-world humans fighting a supernatural threat that's what makes it exciting. So casually mentioning that 80% of the world is ruined triggers all those thoughts of "wait, is this a real world or cartoon land".
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Apr 28, 2021 22:12
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Omg THAT'S how Isayama coulda fixed the ending, have the Rumbling be colossal T-Rex Titans then everyone would think its all way too cool to care about the details of humanity's genocide I'm not entirely joking 
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Apr 28, 2021 22:14
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Pththya-lyi posted:No, really: why are we reading strict scientific accuracy into the series on this one plot point? Why can we suspend our disbelief for humans instantly poofing into immortal giants, but can't take the text's word for it that humanity is able to rebuild after the Rumbling? I don't understand why this is different. It's because it makes for a better ending if we assume Eren was full of poo poo and genocide on a global scale is actually bad. See: The post above with the 3rd opening screencaps.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:19
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Bifauxnen posted:Omg THAT'S how Isayama coulda fixed the ending, have the Rumbling be colossal T-Rex Titans then everyone would think its all way too cool to care about the details of humanity's genocide I ... I can't argue with that.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:22
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Bisse posted:To give a bit of a personal answer, this series was very interesting from the start because there was one, and only one, supernatural element: The titans. Ooh this said it a lot better than I did, this is a good post.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:26
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Bisse posted:To give a bit of a personal answer, this series was very interesting from the start because there was one, and only one, supernatural element: The titans. Everything else was strictly bound to the laws of the real world. 3DMG The Walls.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:28
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Bisse posted:To give a bit of a personal answer, this series was very interesting from the start because there was one, and only one, supernatural element: The titans. Everything else was strictly bound to the laws of the real world. You didn't have magic, or anime powers, it was all just real people dealing with a supernatural threat in an otherwise believable situation with no real tools other than hookshots and little dinky swords. So for me the fun of the series was how the titans fit into an otherwise realistic world. Tangential to your point but the hookshots were always as fantastical as the Titans tbf. It has been years and i still don't understand the concept for these visuals. Conspiratiorist posted:3DMG The walls were quickly explained to be Titans.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:29
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The United States posted:Hmmmm Monkey Trouble will always be the best titan. Just love the way he casually strolls around, snatching horses. Too bad about Zeke, he should have stayed a monkey forever. new kind of cat fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 22:32
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Frionnel posted:It has been years and i still don't understand the concept for these visuals. All the shifter powers represent either a trait of Ymir's or of the worm's. In the case of the Beast, it's of the worm as being a progenitor of the Cambrian Explosion and the diversity of animal lifeforms from it. The Beast in general was rather confusing until the Worm/Ymir origin reveal and the reveal that past Beast titans were all sorts of animal forms. It that sense, it makes sense from a somewhat cliched evolutionary fiction writing perspective that the last Beast titan was that of a great ape.
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Apr 28, 2021 23:03
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Frionnel posted:Except they aren't extremely powerful, because they have no way of becoming titans by themselves. Any eldian who isn't a shifter is just a completely normal human being, until their free will and humanity is taken away by someone else, through titan serum and/or Zeke's scream. And once titanized not only they can only act on basic titan instinct, the process is completely irreversible unless they eat a shifter or a mystical ancient worm is killed through convoluted means. They are extremely powerful because of the shifters, yes, who we are repeatedly shown aren't really treated any better than regular Eldians. Plus in the process of raising new generations of shifters the Eldian units of Marley's military have got to be the people with the best combat experience in the country. So between them receiving elite warrior training, and the best of those elite warriors turning into living superweapons, the dynamic at play becomes nonsense. Yeah, there is the Eldian resistance, but it's extremely impotent. Judging by the state of Paradis, all it has really accomplished (aside from Grisha's rescue) is getting all of its members captured by Marleyan intelligence. So yeah, I'm willing to call the Eldians under Marley broadly docile as a result, they are not putting up meaningful resistance. It would have been more believable had the titan warriors and the warrior candidate units been shown to paradoxically be in a position of privilege despite being marginalised, so that we could buy that Marleyan society is making some effort to maintain the loyalty of its living nukes. Instead we are just told that there's something to gain by becoming honourary Marleyans and only ever shown that turning out to be bullshit.
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Apr 28, 2021 23:15
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chiasaur11 posted:We actually see the Titans swimming. It's not something you have to speculate on. Okay I’m sorry I guess I forgot about Titans swimming at some point? but that makes it a bad take somehow while at the same time everyone is talking about the rumbling as if the Titans walked on the sea floor? Are those takes also bad? I guess I gotta go back and see the Titans swimming, where did it occur?, a lot of the last two years’ chapters I caught on early scans where maybe I didn’t parse the visuals correctly, idunno 
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Apr 28, 2021 23:24
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Tenkaris posted:Okay I’m sorry I guess I forgot about Titans swimming at some point? but that makes it a bad take somehow while at the same time everyone is talking about the rumbling as if the Titans walked on the sea floor? Are those takes also bad? Back in 130, maybe 131, when they crushed the fleet. We see panels of swimming Titans getting blasted by boats. I was more referring to all the arguments about human extinction from lack of trees going into obsessive detail, honestly. Didn't mean to sound like I was targeting you.
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Apr 28, 2021 23:35
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Swimming or not once they get close to the coast as we saw they start walking. So sure plenty of deep ocean life is maybe fine, but bye bye reefs and kelp forests. The more I think about it the more I would have enjoyed a completely bleak ending where Eren's entire answer was "humanity was a mistake, we can only break the cycle by removing ourselves from it entirely. enjoy the rest of your lives as you wait for extinction, i'm headed out first" The only freedom to be found is in death now, but noooooooooo The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 23:44
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Swimming or not once they get close to the coast as we saw they start walking. So sure plenty of deep ocean life is maybe fine, but bye bye reefs and kelp forests. Marine ecosystems adjacent to cities the titans might've directly landed upon had long since been devastated. It's peanuts.
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Apr 28, 2021 23:49
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Conspiratiorist posted:Marine ecosystems adjacent to cities the titans might've directly landed upon had long since been devastated. The world of AoT is basically right on the back end of the industrial revolution. I guess maybe, but there is plenty of coastline around THE WORLD that likely hasn't been ruined and developed yet. My point is swimming titans doesn't absolve the ocean from having been damaged. It's a dumb debate, but it's spawned from the poo poo writing in a poo poo finale so there you have it. Also amazingly those things aren't IMMEDIATELY ruined by humans being near by them see a ton of the Cali coast and until global warming killed the Great Barrier Reef that one too. Humanity does do a number on the ecology of the planet but even we haven't managed what was thrown out in the last chapter which is magnitudes beyond the damage we've done to our planet. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 23:52
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Oh. Oh, I get it now. You're thinking that the titans spread outwards from Paradis, like a single marching wall fully encircling the globe, including their traversal across the oceans. Yes, I can see why you'd reach those conclusions, if that's what you're thinking happened.
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Apr 28, 2021 23:58
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Swimming or not once they get close to the coast as we saw they start walking. So sure plenty of deep ocean life is maybe fine, but bye bye reefs and kelp forests. That's just the state of the real world though
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Apr 28, 2021 23:59
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Swimming or not once they get close to the coast as we saw they start walking. So sure plenty of deep ocean life is maybe fine, but bye bye reefs and kelp forests. Perhaps something like both Zeke gets his Eldian Sterilization and Eren gets his rumbling mass extinction, both trying to "fix" the world in massive genocidal ways, but resulting in an ending where everyone is dead or unable to reproduce and massive ecological devastation means there's ultimately there's no point in surviving anyway. And then he saw Guardians of the Galaxy and changed it to something... more hopeful
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Apr 29, 2021 00:03
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Conspiratiorist posted:Oh. That is the impression I had. I don't see how his claim could possibly be true otherwise. If it's only what we're literally shown on the pages, the rumbling barely got going. So his statement is either an obvious lie or a bunch of the rumbling happened off screen. I've been assuming that most of it has been happening off screen and we're seeing a fraction of a percent of it on the page.
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Apr 29, 2021 00:15
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Pththya-lyi posted:No, really: why are we reading strict scientific accuracy into the series on this one plot point? Why can we suspend our disbelief for humans instantly poofing into immortal giants, but can't take the text's word for it that humanity is able to rebuild after the Rumbling? I don't understand why this is different. I mean, no one is disputing the fact that Marley specifically is able to rebuild because for some ungodly reason, Eren apparently chose to flatten the direct antagonistic nation to Paradis absolutely last. The key question at this point is "how long can this possibly last" and I am not alone in the thought of "not long lmao"
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Apr 29, 2021 00:21
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YF-23 posted:They are extremely powerful because of the shifters, yes, who we are repeatedly shown aren't really treated any better than regular Eldians. Plus in the process of raising new generations of shifters the Eldian units of Marley's military have got to be the people with the best combat experience in the country. So between them receiving elite warrior training, and the best of those elite warriors turning into living superweapons, the dynamic at play becomes nonsense. Yeah, there is the Eldian resistance, but it's extremely impotent. Judging by the state of Paradis, all it has really accomplished (aside from Grisha's rescue) is getting all of its members captured by Marleyan intelligence. So yeah, I'm willing to call the Eldians under Marley broadly docile as a result, they are not putting up meaningful resistance. It would have been more believable had the titan warriors and the warrior candidate units been shown to paradoxically be in a position of privilege despite being marginalised, so that we could buy that Marleyan society is making some effort to maintain the loyalty of its living nukes. Instead we are just told that there's something to gain by becoming honourary Marleyans and only ever shown that turning out to be bullshit. If you're limiting yourself to the shifters, then that leaves 5 (excluding the 4 shifters who have their own agendas) 10-ish year old child soldiers (at the beginning of the show, probably 20 at the end of the series) who have all been carefully indocrinated and probably selected from loyal families to begin with. Not the people most apt to have a complete understanding of their oppression, and the ones that start to understand realize that any disloyalty would result in death for their families and themselves. Plus, there are things to gain from becoming honorary marleyans. I'm pretty sure Reiner mentions at some point that he could live outside of the internment zone if he wanted and they seem to be treated marginally better by Marleyans. Plus, the State does carefully maintain the illusion that eldians can be redeemed, that's the point of the Tybur family, and people really believe in that illusion. Yes, maybe the story could have elaborated more on this, but i think what's there is enough. Also, it is an age where technology is catching up to Titans in power, so it's questionable what a single shifter could really achieve by openly rebelling before being taken down and eaten by the next warrior candidate. There is a discussion to be had about AoT depicting a minority as actually able to become monsters because that can reflect actual real world racial prejudices. Which is why the story would always have to be really carefully with the depiction of eldians (And why i think the armbands were a disastrous use of imagery by Isayama, a lot of people understandably concluded that Eldians and Marleyans were specifically Jewish and Nazi analogues). But as far as the actual racial relationships in the story go, i think you're really missing the point here. Frionnel fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 29, 2021 |
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Apr 29, 2021 01:10
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MechaX posted:I mean, no one is disputing the fact that Marley specifically is able to rebuild because for some ungodly reason, Eren apparently chose to flatten the direct antagonistic nation to Paradis absolutely last. Where is it mentioned in the story that Marley survived?
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Apr 29, 2021 03:21
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The Notorious ZSB posted:That is the impression I had. I don't see how his claim could possibly be true otherwise. If it's only what we're literally shown on the pages, the rumbling barely got going. So his statement is either an obvious lie or a bunch of the rumbling happened off screen. I've been assuming that most of it has been happening off screen and we're seeing a fraction of a percent of it on the page. I think you're really overestimating how many wall titans there were. It's more likely they dispersed in groups to attack specific areas before moving on to the next settlement. If they just spread radially like that there'd be a huge distance between each titan pretty quickly.
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Apr 29, 2021 03:24
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McConnell posted:Where is it mentioned in the story that Marley survived? Well, their absolute last redoubt did, since that's where the final battle took place, but yeah. Rest of Marley got stomped flat. It's other countries that survived with varying levels of damage, since we saw Titans only reached them right as Armin and company attacked Eren.
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Apr 29, 2021 03:25
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