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sponges
Sep 15, 2011

There was no real reason to write the Jedi as these easily duped cretins.

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DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

ˇHola SEA!


sponges posted:

There was no real reason to write the Jedi as these easily duped cretins.

What do you mean?

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

I can think of lots of conceivable reasons to have the characters be easily duped cretins, including that being a pretty common type of person in reality.

I'm not really a prequel liker so I can't really speak to what they feel like that choice accomplishes though. I guess my issue would be not with the characters being cretins in general but rather that palpatine gets an unjustified pass on being a cretin

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...
Can't believe that the sentinels of the liberal order were easily duped cretins! That would never happen in real life.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
I wouldn't even call the Jedi of the prequels easily duped, I think it's more accurate to say that they're arrogant and overconfident. But it still took a fairly complex plan enacted over the course of two decades for Palpatine to supplant them. It didn't seem all that easy.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Can't believe that the sentinels of the liberal order were easily duped cretins! That would never happen in real life.

Yeah sure, but I guess the issue is why would a turbo fascist hopped up on evil insanity magic be the only extant non cretin? My lived experience with fascists at least doesn't exactly satisfy there

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

Yeah sure, but I guess the issue is why would a turbo fascist hopped up on evil insanity magic be the only extant non cretin? My lived experience with fascists at least doesn't exactly satisfy there

Palpatine isn't really a fascist, at least in the films. He has a lust for power, but there isn't much talk about blood and soil.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Palpatine isn't really a fascist, at least in the films. He has a lust for power, but there isn't much talk about blood and soil.

Is it fair to say in your view he's still a lib, perhaps in some sense the arch lib? I mean I can kinda buy that, but that too doesn't explain his conspicuous lack of cretinousness

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

No Mods No Masters posted:

Is it fair to say in your view he's still a lib, perhaps in some sense the arch lib? I mean I can kinda buy that, but that too doesn't explain his conspicuous lack of cretinousness

He's using the dark side to fog everyone else's mind, bam there's your answer

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Basebf555 posted:

He's using the dark side to fog everyone else's mind, bam there's your answer

If it were that, I would expect to see everyone else being a turbo cretin and him being only a normal level cretin. I think if done that way it would be an improvement but I don't think that's really what the movies show

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

ˇHola SEA!


He’s just Satan

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin
you know, as racist as the character designs were in TPM, they had nothing on some of TNG's aliens. Like the Space Jews.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzyMZtypT2w

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

Is it fair to say in your view he's still a lib, perhaps in some sense the arch lib? I mean I can kinda buy that, but that too doesn't explain his conspicuous lack of cretinousness

No, I don't think he's liberal at all. He's quite clearly authoritarian. It just so happens that liberals are vulnerable to authoritarianism when they feel the status quo is threatened -- Hannah Arendt wrote about this.

Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Apr 29, 2021

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

No, I don't think he's liberal at all. He's quite clearly authoritarian. It just so happens that liberals are vulnerable to authoritarianism when they feel threatened by collectivism.

I'd be fine with a story where the kind of cretinousness that rides with authoritarianism proves well suited to overcoming the kind of cretinousness that rides with the libs. I just don't think that's what the prequels achieve with the palpatine character. Shrug, enough said

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006
The whole "Ferengi are Jews" thing always catches people showing their rear end because it's a show with an alien race that has ridged noses, famous for their ancient religion, who spent years in concentration camps, spend the whole series recovering from the trauma of it. And then people are like, "IT'S THE MONEY OBSESSED GREMLINS! THEY'RE THE JEWS!"

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

I'd be fine with a story where the kind of cretinousness that rides with authoritarianism proves well suited to overcoming the kind of cretinousness that rides with the libs. I just don't think that's what the prequels achieve with the palpatine character. Shrug, enough said

"I didn't actually come here to free slaves."
-Qui-Gon Jinn

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

"I didn't actually come here to free slaves."
-Qui-Gon Jinn

Can you explain what quoting this to me is supposed to signify? I'm not sure I understand your point

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Why are the Jedi easily duped? Well, leaving aside that "easily" is a pretty relative term here, they were deceived because of their arrogance. Why are they arrogant? The main thing we know about them from later on is that they fell. What precedes a fall?

I mean, hell, Palpatine himself lays it out explicitly: "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda."

When they say that the Dark Side has clouded their vision, that's a metaphor. Whether or not there's literally some evil magic fogging up their psychic clairvoyance, what really is going on is that they are refusing to see their circumstances for what they are: that they have become the enforcers of an unjust social order.

The existence of the clone army - the possibility that the Republic might go to war - caught them by surprise. But in order to begin to understand the reason why they didn't see it, they would have to honestly confront their own idea of what the Republic is and what exactly they have done by attaching themselves to it. To a dark place this line of thought will carry them.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

Can you explain what quoting this to me is supposed to signify? I'm not sure I understand your point

The Republic is pretty okay with atrocity, and their complacency doesn't lead them to question their sense of righteousness for even a moment.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

you know, as racist as the character designs were in TPM, they had nothing on some of TNG's aliens. Like the Space Jews.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzyMZtypT2w

I watched 90 seconds of that video and turned it off. Those seem like trash people.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

The Republic is pretty okay with atrocity, and their complacency doesn't lead them to question their sense of righteousness for even a moment.

Okay, I'm still confused why you thought I needed to be told that, but yeah :agreed:

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

Okay, I'm still confused why you thought I needed to be told that, but yeah :agreed:

I think the crux of it is that you were insinuating that there's a conflict between the liberal cretins of the Republic and Palpatine's authority, but there is no conflict there. Palpatine notably isn't a cretin, and seizes power with a coup, not an uprising. It isn't even a coup, really, since he's granted power constitutionally. His plan centered around convincing liberals to sign off on increasing defense spending with private contractors, which it turns out isn't very difficult.

Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Apr 29, 2021

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Mechafunkzilla posted:

I think the crux of it is that you were insinuating that there's a conflict between the liberal cretins of the Republic and Palpatine's authority, but there is no conflict there. Palpatine notably isn't a cretin, and seizes power with a coup, not an uprising. It isn't even a coup, really, since he's granted power constitutionally. His plan centered around convincing liberals to sign off on increasing defense spending with private contractors, which it turns out isn't very difficult.

Right there with you on the cretinousness of the libs and the description of the events of the plot. My contention from the outset was that I find it implausible for palpatine to be a non-cretin, and basically the only one we are shown in the galaxy at that. Authoritarianism rides with its own fair share of ideological blinders and pathologies which are not generally any more conducive to non-cretinousness than the ones that ride with the libs, I would say.

So to summarize I guess I would say I would find an interplay between two kind of cretins with different relative advantages to be a little more interesting and true to life than one where cretins are effortlessly piloted by the magical sui generis non cretin

No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 29, 2021

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

No Mods No Masters posted:

Authoritarianism rides with its own fair share of ideological blinders and pathologies which are not generally any more conducive to non-cretinousness than the ones that ride with the libs, I would say.

So to summarize I guess I would say I would find an interplay between two kind of cretins with different relative advantages to be a little more interesting and true to life than one where cretins are effortlessly piloted by the magical sui generis non cretin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKm4ueVuxpY

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

No Mods No Masters posted:

Right there with you on the cretinousness of the libs and the description of the events of the plot. My contention from the outset was that I find it implausible for palpatine to be a non-cretin, and basically the only one we are shown in the galaxy at that. Authoritarianism rides with its own fair share of ideological blinders and pathologies which are not generally any more conducive to non-cretinousness than the ones that ride with the libs, I would say.

So to summarize I guess I would say I would find an interplay between two kind of cretins with different relative advantages to be a little more interesting and true to life than one where cretins are effortlessly piloted by the magical sui generis non cretin

You should read up on Lee Kuan Yew and his path to power.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
Although the films are extremely adept at pointing out the various characters' ideological failures, none of them are particularly bone-headed. It's not, like, "if only Yoda were even more smarter! Then this wouldn't have happened!"

To a certain extent, they are all extremely successful at pursuing their goals, and simply fail to 'be careful what they wish for'.

As for Palpatine, he's literally Satan - and even he isn't that smart. Like, he's a gifted manipulator, but what's he really doing with all that power he's amassed?

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

generally speaking authoritarians don't come to power because of their innate strengths(?), let alone their weaknesses

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
It's worth noting that Palpatine does gently caress up a number times throughout the PT. He loses his enforcer and apprentice in TPM and has his whole plan delayed several years because he didn't account for Amidala triumphing over the Trade Federation. His recklessness nearly gets himself killed more than once in RotS: overplaying his hand with Anakin leads to Mace Windu nearly taking him out, and his duel with Yoda finds him overpowered. He also has his second enforcer and apprentice critically injured.

He succeeds because his understanding of the galactic institutions as fallible and corrupt is ultimately correct.

Shiroc
May 16, 2009

Sorry I'm late

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

As for Palpatine, he's literally Satan - and even he isn't that smart. Like, he's a gifted manipulator, but what's he really doing with all that power he's amassed?

Based on how he was cackling at Yoda falling at the end of their battle while still clinging for dear life to not fall himself, I think he was primarily interested in joyfully owning the libs and everything else was a bonus.

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

Shiroc posted:

Based on how he was cackling at Yoda falling at the end of their battle while still clinging for dear life to not fall himself, I think he was primarily interested in joyfully owning the libs and everything else was a bonus.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-conservatives-love-the-galactic-empire
“Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator—but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet,” Last wrote. “It's a dictatorship people can do business with…In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel Alliance, we never hear of their governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial universe. All we see are plots and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy—it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.”

:thunk:

Assepoester fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Apr 30, 2021

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Although the films are extremely adept at pointing out the various characters' ideological failures, none of them are particularly bone-headed. It's not, like, "if only Yoda were even more smarter! Then this wouldn't have happened!"

To a certain extent, they are all extremely successful at pursuing their goals, and simply fail to 'be careful what they wish for'.

As for Palpatine, he's literally Satan - and even he isn't that smart. Like, he's a gifted manipulator, but what's he really doing with all that power he's amassed?

The man has a hobby, and that hobby is building death stars

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin

Jewmanji posted:

I watched 90 seconds of that video and turned it off. Those seem like trash people.

lol

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!

Timeless Appeal posted:

The whole "Ferengi are Jews" thing always catches people showing their rear end because it's a show with an alien race that has ridged noses, famous for their ancient religion, who spent years in concentration camps, spend the whole series recovering from the trauma of it. And then people are like, "IT'S THE MONEY OBSESSED GREMLINS! THEY'RE THE JEWS!"

That and the fact Trek goes over and over again in multiple series how the Ferengi are supposed to be Americans. The characters literally turn to the camera at one point and say "The Ferengi are bad because they are Americans". Individual Ferengi cultural traits are over and over examined in the context of how they relate to modern American cultural traits. The series that has the most most Ferengi screen time by an order of magnitude has them sharing the screen with the actual Space-Jew aliens who were Holocausted by the actual Space-Nazi aliens.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
One of the first episodes introducing the Ferengi has them compared to 'Yankee traders' and the name is based on 'Farhang', an Asian term for Westerners (based on 'Frank') with the whole point being their capitalism is contrasted against the vague socialism of the Federation.

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog
Under normal circumstances the blunt methods the Jedi use are extremely effective because they can essentially bully anyone into submission. It's mostly because the bad guys have Force users of their own reassuring them that it's gonna work out that they don't fold like expected.

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017



That's quite the random hodgepodge

Where's the Mando rep?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Schwarzwald posted:

Honestly, KVeezy3, what is holding you back?

Skill & cowardice.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Ferengi got giant dongs

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Schwarzwald posted:

He loses his enforcer and apprentice in TPM
Revenge of the Sith kind of confirms that Palpatine doesn't really care about any of his heavies. Maul always seemed to be invested in the notion of the Sith as a culture and an order in a way that Palpatine doesn't really care.

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Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs
Whatever beef Maul has with the Jedi is really interesting. It's not "at last, we will own these dumbasses and personally grab a bunch of power", it's "at last, we will have revenge".
It's possible that Sheev has just indoctrinated him against them with a bunch of liesabout the persecution of the sith, but I think exploiting an existing grievance is much more his thing. What did the Jedi do to Maul or his people?

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