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RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

He would demand a moustache be digitally added to Gollum.

That sounds like a positive imo

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MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007
Out dated now, but comic book film researcher BoobMarley settled this debate years ago

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
I'm glad someone saved that.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008


"THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"

This title contains sponsored content.

Man, remember Kick-rear end?

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



AccountSupervisor posted:



(Once again the first 4 DCEU movies were more profitable than the first 4 MCU movies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudnMLzZjTg

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

josh04 posted:

Man, remember Kick-rear end?

I 'member

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

AccountSupervisor posted:

(Once again the first 4 DCEU movies were more profitable than the first 4 MCU movies)

Even if you want to push back on this for being reductive: the "phase 1" of MCU up through the original Avengers versus the same phase for the DCEU through JL2017 looks like this:

MCU
6 movies
$1 billion dollar budget total
$1,747,317,409 domestic box office
$3,813,212,481 worldwide box office

DCEU
5 movies
$1.099 billion dollar budget total
$1,588,093,469 domestic box office
$3,768,298,638 worldwide box office

Like, the MCU spent a little less to make a little more but this wasn't the crushing, sweeping defeat that became the meme. And of course you can point to the MCU's wild success after Phase 1 but then for the DCUE it's very next film after the disappointment of Josstice League was Aquaman, their first billion dollar breaker and their most successful movie to date. From there they only had two movies pre-COVID, and those were not hyper successful but they also had incredibly modest budgets compared to movies from either studio (I think BoP is literally the only one made for less than 100 mil)

WB's biggest problem with the DCEU was not getting out of their own loving way and just making movies. Literally the biggest strength of the MCU was whenever they had a stumble, like with The Incredible Hulk being a weak performer or First Avenger not doing great internationally, they didn't loving immediately panic and they kept trucking forward until they built a brand on sheer momentum. They recast Bruce Banner and retconned a bunch of poo poo from those early movie but basically nobody cares because it's silly to look back on the early days and go "well they didn't make all that much money" since what they did do was have their loving eye on the prize and move steadily forward like a loving bulldozer. The idea that WB should constantly listen to the internet and second guess themselves is the exact loving opposite lesson they should've learned.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Remember when WB was trying to distinguish themselves with "we let our artists make *their* movie, we dont restrict them like Marvel" type rhetoric? Its pretty funny in hindsight, with the Justice League rolling SNAFU, butchering Suicide Squad, saturating Aquaman, canceling New Gods (either because they stole the script, or because it would remind people of SCJL's existence too much), and whatever's going on with Flash.

As restrictive as Marvel can be, AFAIK they haven't thrown someones movie to a team of trailer editors (or worse, Joss Whedon) to chop up after it's finished. Most directors seem to understand going in that they wont be directing the action scenes, and the color grading will be bad.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

Neurolimal posted:

Remember when WB was trying to distinguish themselves with "we let our artists make *their* movie, we dont restrict them like Marvel" type rhetoric? Its pretty funny in hindsight, with the Justice League rolling SNAFU, butchering Suicide Squad, saturating Aquaman, canceling New Gods (either because they stole the script, or because it would remind people of SCJL's existence too much), and whatever's going on with Flash.

As restrictive as Marvel can be, AFAIK they haven't thrown someones movie to a team of trailer editors (or worse, Joss Whedon) to chop up after it's finished. Most directors seem to understand going in that they wont be directing the action scenes, and the color grading will be bad.

The biggest difference seems to be that Marvel will let you know who's in charge super early into production, which is how you get Edgar Wright leaving Ant-Man well before it derailed things or Lurecia Martel just turning down Black Widow outright. WB presumably starts with a hands off approach, bragging about how independent it's letting its directors be, then has a loving panic attack at the 11th hour and does the equivalent of pulling an all-nighter redoing their kid's science project while weeping on the kitchen floor

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

Guy A. Person posted:

WB's biggest problem with the DCEU was not getting out of their own loving way and just making movies. Literally the biggest strength of the MCU was whenever they had a stumble, like with The Incredible Hulk being a weak performer or First Avenger not doing great internationally, they didn't loving immediately panic and they kept trucking forward until they built a brand on sheer momentum. They recast Bruce Banner and retconned a bunch of poo poo from those early movie but basically nobody cares because it's silly to look back on the early days and go "well they didn't make all that much money" since what they did do was have their loving eye on the prize and move steadily forward like a loving bulldozer.
It's strange how this narrative emerged that Kevin Feige or whoever was masterminding the MCU so that everything fit together. They're all in the same continuity, but there are retcons and loose ends all over the place.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice
Y'all can talk about Pink Raytheon or Fountainhead Iron Man, but Black Panther has the worst politics in all of modern film-making because it literally enshrines a modern white supremacist revision of a Puritan American founding myth as a central pillar of the movie.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso
And what is that?

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal
Even when I try to put myself in the shoes of an exec and not a fan, I totally get WB getting worried by a 69% BO drop for the 2nd weekend of BvS, that's a huge percentage and its something to definitely be weary of.

The problem is that they were already shooting JL, the money was spent, the budget was locked and they had already started down this path of the Snyderverse and if they wanted to pivot after Justice League, had it been received with as much critical scorn as BvS, I wouldnt have faulted them. It just makes absolutely no sense they thought doing what they did with JL was the right move. They had no idea what they were doing with their filmmakers, threw a ton of money at these movies assuming the IPs alone would deliver them immediate billions and were shocked when a very challenging take on the DC mythos(that they reportedly loved themselves) wasnt a mainstream smash in the same sense The Avengers was. Theres a myriad of time and place factors that also have to be accounted for when looking at the two approaches.

I dont know how you can argue this when we are in 2021 having debates that by all means should have been happening 4 years ago. Thats nobodies fault but WB.

It legitimately feels like a cultural conversation was transplanted from 2017 to 2021 and

AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 30, 2021

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
The thing that wilds me out was the new information from Terrio that the OG BvS script they gave him was even darker and more vicious. That was not something we knew before about a month ago and it's one of those "everything you thought you knew about the situation was wrong" moments for me. Like most people I had assumed that it was Snyder and Terrio who went for more grit in the script; the fact is that they were the ones softening up the movie!

Alexander Hamilton
Dec 29, 2008

Guy A. Person posted:

The biggest difference seems to be that Marvel will let you know who's in charge super early into production, which is how you get Edgar Wright leaving Ant-Man well before it derailed things or Lurecia Martel just turning down Black Widow outright. WB presumably starts with a hands off approach, bragging about how independent it's letting its directors be, then has a loving panic attack at the 11th hour and does the equivalent of pulling an all-nighter redoing their kid's science project while weeping on the kitchen floor

It's hilarious that WB had a thing going where they were the Director's StudioTM and, through Justice League, managed to isolate 3 of their bigger directors in Christopher Nolan, Zack Snyder and Ben Affleck.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Halloween Jack posted:

And what is that?

Even aside from the Cosby-ish respectability politics and whatever else.

Puritans launched their colonization effort of America citing a Christian sermon with the phrase "city upon a hill". They used it to refer to their religious piety, but it's since been repurposed as a rallying call for all sorts of colonialism and in the modern era as a justification for white supremacy--that white people, white civilization, in general are the shining pinnacle. Black Panther eagerly accepts this framing and says that a bunch of brutal isolationist monarchists are the ones who can follow in the white people's footprints in delivering colonialism to an Africa depicted as tribal hunter-gatherers.

It is loving gross.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 30, 2021

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
I'd like to retract my previous post on this topic and instead put forward a plea that Wakanda furnish the LAPD with vibranium weaponry.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Y'all can talk about Pink Raytheon or Fountainhead Iron Man, but Black Panther has the worst politics in all of modern film-making because it literally enshrines a modern white supremacist revision of a Puritan American founding myth as a central pillar of the movie.

The new Captain Falcon show is even worse in this regard, insanely dire politics to the point where you really wish they wouldn't have bothered.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

The new Captain Falcon show

If only

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

josh04 posted:

Man, remember Kick-rear end?

Kick-rear end is one of my favorites so yes

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
I get that a lot black nerds are just happy to see an mostly-black superhero cast touting afrofuturistic designs in an african setting, but I definitely wish it hadn't come in the form of a movie where a CIA asset quells a revolution while preaching pragmatism.

I would have been interested in a Netflix or Fox adaptation of The Crew getting those warm regards, personally.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Even aside from the Cosby-ish respectability politics and whatever else.

Puritans launched their colonization effort of America citing a Christian sermon with the phrase "city upon a hill". They used it to refer to their religious piety, but it's since been repurposed as a rallying call for all sorts of colonialism and in the modern era as a justification for white supremacy--that white people, white civilization, in general are the shining pinnacle. Black Panther eagerly accepts this framing and says that a bunch of brutal isolationist monarchists are the ones who can follow in the white people's footprints in delivering colonialism to an Africa depicted as tribal hunter-gatherers.
I was gonna say that Wakanda is somewhere between America and "Modern progressive Saudi Arabia under MBS", but then I realized the latter is literally casting itself as a mini-America to sell itself to the imperial core, so it's almost a distinction without a difference.

But yeah, the movie is all about how great "progressive" imperialism is, and how any challenge to the American empire is villainous. Which isn't exactly an unusual combo, trying to associate their mass murderers and other ghouls with progressiveness is like the rule for the liberal side of American politics.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
Killmonger is almost literally just an ugly caricature / smear job of Kwame Ture lol

Black Panther sucks so goddamn bad

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

Neurolimal posted:

I get that a lot black nerds are just happy to see an mostly-black superhero cast touting afrofuturistic designs in an african setting, but I definitely wish it hadn't come in the form of a movie where a CIA asset quells a revolution while preaching pragmatism.

A lot of black nerds are happy about Kamala Harris. Doesn't mean much.

Its Chocolate
Dec 21, 2019

A Buttery Pastry posted:

But yeah, the movie is all about how great "progressive" imperialism is, and how any challenge to the American empire is villainous.

is there a Marvel movei that's not about this

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Its Chocolate posted:

is there a Marvel movei that's not about this

Dr. Strange is about how Gnosticism is just a con job by Cthulhu and if you really know what's good for you you'd listen to the Demiurge and never mind all the blatant signs that reality is a prison and they're your jailer

which is... still basically the same schema as liberal imperialism, just applied to religious mysticism :v:

Its Chocolate
Dec 21, 2019

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Dr. Strange is about how Gnosticism is just a con job by Cthulhu and if you really know what's good for you you'd listen to the Demiurge and never mind all the blatant signs that reality is a prison and they're your jailer

which is... still basically the same schema as liberal imperialism, just applied to religious mysticism :v:

you have no idea how angry this makes me

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Its Chocolate posted:

you have no idea how angry this makes me

oh no i'm right there with you, Dr. Strange is the movie that convinced me to stop even watching MCU movies. even doing adversarial readings or ideological criticism isn't interesting when it's the exact same message every time

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

doing adversarial readings or ideological criticism isn't interesting

:v:

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Its Chocolate posted:

is there a Marvel movei that's not about this

Thor 3, I guess.

Oh never mind, here comes Thanos.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Its Chocolate posted:

is there a Marvel movei that's not about this
They cover a wide range of topics, from the importance of standing up to government to protect private property, the virtue of putting your faith in great men, and a general end of history mindset.

I mean, it's the same ideological construct they're all portraying, but they do point the camera at different bits.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
It’s honestly really fuckin’ wild that Marvelverse began with a Batman parody.

It’s like if we had 25 increasingly-serious Airplane! sequels, including a full supernatural relationship drama miniseries based on the “Otto the Inflatable Autopilot” blow-job joke.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I was gonna say that Wakanda is somewhere between America and "Modern progressive Saudi Arabia under MBS", but then I realized the latter is literally casting itself as a mini-America to sell itself to the imperial core, so it's almost a distinction without a difference.

But yeah, the movie is all about how great "progressive" imperialism is, and how any challenge to the American empire is villainous. Which isn't exactly an unusual combo, trying to associate their mass murderers and other ghouls with progressiveness is like the rule for the liberal side of American politics.

It also presents a comforting liberal vision of racial injustice - yes, dear viewer, it's all very unfortunate and you're a good person for feeling bad about it, but never fear, nothing actually needs to be changed to do anything about it. The movie presents racial injustice as something with no tangible effects, that isn't perpetrated by anybody. In the world according to Black Panther there is no wrongdoing to be stopped, no malefactors to be brought to justice, no institutions that need to be reformed or abolished - just a vague and nonspecific sense of unfairness that we wish wasn't there. The most immediate example of racial inequity that the movie cares to demonstrate is some cultural artifacts being on display in the British Museum, and by the end of that scene it's revealed that Killmonger doesn't actually care about anything that he said and was just appropriating the language of justice to get what he wanted just like those SJWs who want to control everything.

Then the movie's uplifting finale has T'challa solving racism by opening what amounts to a coding bootcamp in Oakland. Yes, we're very sorry about the inconvenience - due to an unfortunate oversight, a little oopsie-doodle in the otherwise-perfect system, the prosperity wasn't being distributed as optimally as it could be, but now at long last there's a black billionaire among those at the top and at long last prosperity can come trickling down to poor black kids the same way it does so successfully to everyone else. And just think! By paying to see this movie, you - yes, you, dear viewer - could be helping to create a black billionaire, which means you helped solve racism by coming to the theater today!

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost
Also, much ado was made about the movie taking place in Africa, but Wakanda may as well be another planet like Asgard and the movie's only actual use for Africa beyond aesthetics is as a source of generic bad guys for T'challa to kill in an early scene.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Puritans launched their colonization effort of America citing a Christian sermon with the phrase "city upon a hill". They used it to refer to their religious piety, but it's since been repurposed as a rallying call for all sorts of colonialism and in the modern era as a justification for white supremacy--that white people, white civilization, in general are the shining pinnacle. Black Panther eagerly accepts this framing and says that a bunch of brutal isolationist monarchists are the ones who can follow in the white people's footprints in delivering colonialism to an Africa depicted as tribal hunter-gatherers.
I agree! But homologizing the Wakandans to white Puritan settlers feels unnecessary given that the movie is hosed up in even more obvious ways. Like, the literal plot is that a black revolutionary wins control of Wakanda fair and square, and the "hero" overthrows him in a CIA-backed coup.

The other main sticking point for me is that it's a fantasy of empowered Africans that is, well, pure fantasy. Wakanda doesn't show any traces of any actual African liberation movement I've ever heard of. They say that colonialism happened and it was very bad, but they didn't draw on any anti-colonial movements or condemn any colonial projects that actually existed, because that would be too controversial for Marvel. Wakanda doesn't need Pan-Africanism because they have Hogwarts houses and magic metal.

And like you said, Africa outside of Wakanda (i.e. real Africa) is depicted as a depleted wasteland whose people have no identity or agency.

Seyser Koze posted:

In the world according to Black Panther there is no wrongdoing to be stopped, no malefactors to be brought to justice, no institutions that need to be reformed or abolished - just a vague and nonspecific sense of unfairness that we wish wasn't there.
Imperialism isn't anybody's fault, so violent attempts to resist it are Going Too Far and definitely have to be stopped.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 30, 2021

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Halloween Jack posted:

I agree! But homologizing the Wakandans to white Puritan settlers feels unnecessary given that the movie is hosed up in even more obvious ways.

Yeah I think the obvious ways are the more superficial ways, those are ways in which Black Panther is merely Just As Bad as the rest.

It's not exactly homologizing, I think. The idea of the city upon a hill has certainly evolved in 400 years, and it is the modern white supremacist conception of the phrase that Black Panther ultimately adopts for Wakanda. That makes it worse than every other right wing leaning MCU slobjob, on what is a fundamental level.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 30, 2021

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I was gonna say that Wakanda is somewhere between America and "Modern progressive Saudi Arabia under MBS", but then I realized the latter is literally casting itself as a mini-America to sell itself to the imperial core, so it's almost a distinction without a difference.

But yeah, the movie is all about how great "progressive" imperialism is, and how any challenge to the American empire is villainous. Which isn't exactly an unusual combo, trying to associate their mass murderers and other ghouls with progressiveness is like the rule for the liberal side of American politics.

Julius Nyerere posted:

Yes, we have one party here. The United States is also a one-party state. But with typical American extravagance, they have two of them!

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Halloween Jack posted:

I agree! But homologizing the Wakandans to white Puritan settlers feels unnecessary given that the movie is hosed up in even more obvious ways. Like, the literal plot is that a black revolutionary wins control of Wakanda fair and square, and the "hero" overthrows him in a CIA-backed coup.
I mean, I think it's fair to say that the movie has layers of bad messages, from the surface level plot ones you mention, to the ones white supremacists had no problem identifying and embracing over the objection of liberals who really did not want to go beyond the aesthetic of black super hero.

Seyser Koze posted:

The most immediate example of racial inequity that the movie cares to demonstrate is some cultural artifacts being on display in the British Museum, and by the end of that scene it's revealed that Killmonger doesn't actually care about anything that he said and was just appropriating the language of justice to get what he wanted just like those SJWs who want to control everything.
Yeah, even the smallest concession to left-wing criticism is immediately undermined and reversed in the movie. The movie comes off worse than the others because it approaches these issues head on, and immediately starts explaining why actually everything is fine and you're the real cause of racial animosity if you care about them.

Seyser Koze posted:

Also, much ado was made about the movie taking place in Africa, but Wakanda may as well be another planet like Asgard and the movie's only actual use for Africa beyond aesthetics is as a source of generic bad guys for T'challa to kill in an early scene.
Yeah, it's not exactly a great cultural victory for Africa. The most generous interpretation you can come up with is that it's allowing African-Americans to feel like an equal partner in American cultural imperialism, through this flattening of Africa into a long-lost homeland rather than a living continent home to more than a billion people.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

The thing that wilds me out was the new information from Terrio that the OG BvS script they gave him was even darker and more vicious. That was not something we knew before about a month ago and it's one of those "everything you thought you knew about the situation was wrong" moments for me. Like most people I had assumed that it was Snyder and Terrio who went for more grit in the script; the fact is that they were the ones softening up the movie!

That was huge news to me as well. I'd be interested to know how on board Snyder was with the original grimdark version; Terrio gave the impression that basically everything he contributed Snyder was enthusiastic about. I don't know anything about the industry, but if you're a director and your lead actor has problems with the script, you could presumably just say "no, the script is fine" and not bring on another writer unless you actually agreed

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Wasnt the darker script stuff like a quip about Superman killing african warlords? Even if you want a dark and serious story, I can understand removing trash like that.

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