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Roth posted:I wonder how many times the MCU can use "Well meaning villain with good and reasonable leftist points, who just so happens to be a completely evil psychopath willing to murder for no reason" before people starting thinking about it. As long as their main audience cheers for the boot to crush dissent The conservative ghoul Sonny Bunch is right (from the point of view of most of population, unfortunately) https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/01/03/environmentalists-make-good-movie-villains-because-they-want-make-your-real-life-worse/ Ruling parties in India and China enjoy overwhelming broad popular support for ethnic cleansings under the guise of restoring law and order, millions of americans vote for concentration camps, frankly it is surprising that superhero blockbusters chasing more and more mass audience are not more vile in their preserving status quo narratives.
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May 5, 2021 12:20
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Everyone posted:Because this particular character is a bad-faith actor who is clearly using revolutionary rhetoric without giving any real shits about the oppressed people he theoretically champions. Note that in almost every scene in the "Spirit World" Erik Stevens appears as the little boy instead of as a man. That's showing that in his heart he's still the angry little boy whose father was murdered. He's essentially playing a gambit similar to what Zemo used in Civil War, trying to get Wakanda and the White Patriarchy to destroy each in a war he provoked. "Killmonger is a disingenuous prick using revolutionary struggle as a cover for self-glorification" isn't a particularly compelling argument on behalf of the film even if (probably) true, because the political framing the movie creates is still repellent--it's effectively erasing the reality of modern colonialism/capitalist exploitation, conflating resistance against this horrifying, blithely normalized "post-historical" status quo with both bloodthirsty tyranny and some truly contemptible "but they would do it to US too if they could" bullshit, and then presenting insulting near-comically thin reformism as the way forward. We just gotta make some minor tweaks on the system, guys! And maybe they don't even fully reach the level of "tweaks". The CIA will help us figure that out. Killmonger Was Right even if Snidely Whiplash-tier evil, and collapsing opposition to violent global hegemony under the banner of personal grudge-seeking is *picks nose, eats bug* pure ideology. A read of his character copying the CIA playbook can probably open some interesting conversations about revolutionary praxis, but, also, we then need to consider Black Panther's use of that same playbook and literal cooperation with the CIA. POWELL CURES KIDS fucked around with this message at 12:50 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 12:48
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The American government agency that I find gets the weirdest treatment in the MCU is the FBI. Despite 90% of the MCU involving law enforcement/crime problems in the United States, it took 9 years for the FBI to be mentioned in the MCU. Even after SHIELD (which was supposed to be an international defense group and not local) collapsed, the FBI are never involved. Alien attack on New York? International finance crimes in America? Interstate arms dealing? Performing investigations for congress? Investigating American corporations? All of those are handled by different fictional agencies. Then, in Wandavision we see a single FBI agent again and he appears to be subservient to another fictional agency that is supposed to be for combating alien threats? Even when supervillains are getting taken to the raft, they are arrested and transported by local police or private citizens.
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May 5, 2021 13:15
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The Flag Smashers do Killmonger one better by making it impossible to tell if they're anarchists (OK), pro genocide reactionaries (!!!) or insufferable D&D goons with a gym membership and a HGH hookup.
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May 5, 2021 13:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The American government agency that I find gets the weirdest treatment in the MCU is the FBI. Leaving the FBI and CIA out of the Disney-industrial circlejerk of the MCU was one of it's few mitigating virtues, and then they hosed it all up by introducing (in order) Randall Park and Martin Freeman as emissaries of Good Fascism. There should be laws against using actors that likeable to front for the government. LesterGroans posted:This was something that was really annoying when Wonder Woman and even Captain Marvel came out. Patting themselves on their backs for having a black or female lead for the first time in the specific universe the studio made up is such low-stakes nonsense that it's insulting. A happy byproduct is that they also, in effect, denied the existence of all hitherto minority representation in film. From a certain standpoint, Black Panther actually set back civil rights in Hollywood 20+ years. Nice work, guys! And the flames of my rage at them memory-holing Geena Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight will never cool.
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May 5, 2021 13:27
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sean10mm posted:The Flag Smashers do Killmonger one better by making it impossible to tell if they're anarchists (OK), pro genocide reactionaries (!!!) or insufferable D&D goons with a gym membership and a HGH hookup. 'anarchist' is pretty much a wildcard as far as pop culture is concerned for any form of violence, terrorism and things that make suburban white middle class people scared and angry.
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May 5, 2021 13:37
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:Leaving the FBI and CIA out of the Disney-industrial circlejerk of the MCU was one of it's few mitigating virtues, and then they hosed it all up by introducing (in order) Randall Park and Martin Freeman as emissaries of Good Fascism. There should be laws against using actors that likeable to front for the government. The weird thing is that the FBI in the MCU doesn't appear to do anything except act as Ant-Man's parole officer for a year or two and act as a random employee of a different agency. I can't even see why they bothered to make him FBI other than to just not have to explain a different fictional agency. There also appears to only be one FBI agent in the entire country. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 13:42 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 13:40
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"We're a small band of reactionary terrorists"
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May 5, 2021 13:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'anarchist' is pretty much a wildcard as far as pop culture is concerned for any form of violence, terrorism and things that make suburban white middle class people scared and angry. Yeah but they actually say some approximation of what anarchism actually is for a hot second... but then they're explicitly nostalgic for half the world being murdered and are pissed that FILTHY IMMIGRANTS from the comic book disappearing thing TOOK ARE JERBS  It's hilariously sloppy even by MCU villain standards. Having Captain Actually Bad America be done so well by Russell just made it stand out even more.
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May 5, 2021 13:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The weird thing is that the FBI in the MCU doesn't appear to do anything except act as Ant-Man's parole officer for a year or two and act as a random employee of a different agency. I can't even see why they bothered to make him FBI other than to just not have to explain a different fictional agency. There also appears to only be one FBI agent in the entire country. Yeah, there's definitely some uncanny valley poo poo going on there, I'm not sure what the thought process was. Also: The MSJ posted:"We're a small band of reactionary terrorists" Goddrat.
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May 5, 2021 14:11
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Everyone posted:Because this particular character is a bad-faith actor who is clearly using revolutionary rhetoric without giving any real shits about the oppressed people he theoretically champions. Note that in almost every scene in the "Spirit World" Erik Stevens appears as the little boy instead of as a man. That's showing that in his heart he's still the angry little boy whose father was murdered. He's essentially playing a gambit similar to what Zemo used in Civil War, trying to get Wakanda and the White Patriarchy to destroy each in a war he provoked. 
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May 5, 2021 14:18
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I brought up the One Piece example because the racist minority rebels are actually pointed out as being terrible for their cause and the protagonists still need to keep optics in mind to beat them, contrasting the utter thoughtlessness of MCU villains where vaguely left-wing causes are utterly and thoroughly demonised with the thinnest veneer of 'maybe they kinda had a point, once. But they want to kill all the puppies, so they must die'. Picture the Inglorious Basterds being the villains of a movie where the OSS teams up with the Waffen-SS to wipe them out.
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May 5, 2021 14:26
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Lord_Magmar posted:Actually no you’re right I was being overly generous, it’s still an attempt at global equality and life improvement which could lead to cultural or industrial style revolutions, but from the perspective of actual revolution against existing power structures it’s mostly shaking up with the new super power. It is however worth noting Nakia and Killmonger are intended to be saying similar things, Nakia wants outreach and improvement to help those who have been oppressed, Killmonger wants to arm and provide military support to them. We're continuously told over and over that we all want the same things (Abstract notions of truth, justice, equality), so we need to unify by looking deep into peoples' hearts to find their true goodness. But this really just distracts us from analyzing the truth of their actions, i.e. the straightforward liberal interventionism embodied by Nakia (Exposition says she's leadership of the coding camps established at the end of the film). KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 14:48 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 14:26
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Everyone posted:Because this particular character is a bad-faith actor who is clearly using revolutionary rhetoric without giving any real shits about the oppressed people he theoretically champions. Note that in almost every scene in the "Spirit World" Erik Stevens appears as the little boy instead of as a man. That's showing that in his heart he's still the angry little boy whose father was murdered.
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May 5, 2021 14:32
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Halloween Jack posted:Like Everyone who wants to dismiss black people as dumb and so goddamn crazy, you're psychoanalyzing Erik Stephens and attributing bad attitudes to him, instead of just considering his actions and any possible rational motivations for those actions. Yes, he's angry. Who gives a poo poo? Toussaint Louverture was angry. All the liberal defenses of Black Panther are like, you see the villain was really a boy, not a man, and was too angry to take seriously, and incontrovertibly deranged because he didn't have a dad, and a violent monster who wouldn't stop attacking women, and was so stupid he was doomed to fail regardless, and...
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May 5, 2021 14:36
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Captain America and The Falcon: The Moynihan Report
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May 5, 2021 14:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:I did. The People Could Fly which I cited in my original post. Everyone posted:Erik Stevens's "revolution" doesn't end with Wakanda conquering the world and a rousing cry of "Black People (literally) Rule!" It ends with Wakanda conquered and colonized, overwhelmed by sheer numbers. It ends with Wakadans lost and displaced like he was lost and displaced when they murdered his father. The truth, then, is that black people need to get over imperialism and unite with the US military to defeat Intergalactic Jewry. Lord_Magmar posted:He explicitly, in the text, does not actually care about the future of Wakanda, it's people, or the world at large, that's why he destroys the Heart Shaped Herb, he intends to be the only person with the power of the Black Panther, and possibly for there not to be a king after him (because Wakanda will be destroyed, not because he's abolishing the monarchy). Lord_Magmar posted:Black Panther does have the revolutionary who is earnest in their beliefs, it’s Nakia, and her revolution does in fact occur at the end. Whether you think it’s enough or not is a separate discussion, but the end result of the movie is T’challa and Wakanda performing a global revolution (hopefully) with zero bloodshed. Lowering the labour costs for companies that hire STEM graduates is not a black liberation movement.
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May 5, 2021 15:09
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it would do so much more for black liberation to empower the weak in Africa to throw out colonial interests and the actors that propagate them than instituting an afterschool coding program in Chicago
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May 5, 2021 15:17
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Roth posted:I wonder how many times the MCU can use "Well meaning villain with good and reasonable leftist points, who just so happens to be a completely evil psychopath willing to murder for no reason" before people starting thinking about it. How many times have they done it? I feel like the answer is going to be "In all the Marvel films I didn't watch" lmao
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May 5, 2021 15:20
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Halloween Jack posted:Lowering the labour costs for companies that hire STEM graduates is not a black liberation movement. Ah, but per Marx this is how the bourgeoisie constantly revolutionizes production, so technically-
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May 5, 2021 15:20
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Halloween Jack posted:Killmonger doesn't care about black people because he destroyed the royal family's super-drugs? Killmonger doesn't care about the Wakandan people or their culture (hence destroying the super-drugs of their cultural super hero who they believe to be their great protector). Which means he doesn't particularly intend for Wakanda to win the war, because he doesn't care about the liberation of black people he cares about destroying Wakanda. It's the same thing as Baron Zemo, he presents one thing whilst planning another to hurt the people he holds responsible for the destruction of his family and life (as his entire motivation is the death of his father at the hands of T'chaka). I also admitted that I mis-spoke on that second bit, it's not a liberation movement, it's an outreach and life improvement initiative, which admittedly your actual valuation of it is up to yourself. My belief is that it's a strong step towards undoing inequality, and not a step towards global war (which I'd rather like to avoid regardless of the reason, which is not to say that violent revolution is never the answer). grieving for Gandalf posted:it would do so much more for black liberation to empower the weak in Africa to throw out colonial interests and the actors that propagate them than instituting an afterschool coding program in Chicago See, this is something I actually agree with, and it's a shame that no sides of the argument seem to consider this for a second, I guess it's likely that Wakanda doesn't send War Dogs to other parts of Africa, only internationally, in the modern era believing it unnecessary? From memory the goal of the War Dogs is espionage and to help keep Wakanda Isolated. Perhaps the change from Isolation will also cause Wakanda to do more local initiatives as well. RBA Starblade posted:How many times have they done it? I feel like the answer is going to be "In all the Marvel films I didn't watch" lmao By my count twice according to this thread, Eric (Killmonger) and Karli (Flagsmasher). There might be more though, not that I really agree either of those are that, Karli is not presented as a psychopathic murderer but someone pushed to the brink and brought low (hey look, it mirrors Walker, pity they don't fully commit by keeping them both alive and atoning/working towards a better future with less personal murder) and Erik is not actually presenting leftist ideals at any point, it's just easy to ascribe to him an anti-supermacist angle (when even his most positive interpretation involves Wakanda becoming a global empire). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:25 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:23
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RBA Starblade posted:How many times have they done it? It almost makes me nostalgic for the first couple Marvel movies where the bad guy could just be an rear end in a top hat. Obadiah Stane, Red Skull, Loki, all just some fuckers.
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May 5, 2021 15:25
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LesterGroans posted:It's very strange to me to paint the opinion "monarchies are bad" as pearl-clutching. Bridgerton and Meghan Markle showed us that monarchies are good as long as they have Black people in them.
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May 5, 2021 15:25
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RBA Starblade posted:How many times have they done it? I feel like the answer is going to be "In all the Marvel films I didn't watch" lmao At least 4: Iron Man 2, one of them Spider-Man movies, Capt. America TV show and Black Panther. Endgame and Infinity War are exceptions because they take the radical position of just agreeing with the villain.
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May 5, 2021 15:26
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:At least 4: Iron Man 2, one of them Spider-Man movies, Capt. America TV show and Black Panther. Endgame and Infinity War are exceptions because they take the radical position of just agreeing with the villain. I don't recall Whiplash being leftist, just him and his father personally done dirty by the Starks Otherwise lol it is in the stuff I didn't watch
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May 5, 2021 15:28
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:At least 4: Iron Man 2, one of them Spider-Man movies, Capt. America TV show and Black Panther. Endgame and Infinity War are exceptions because they take the radical position of just agreeing with the villain. Who is the leftist in Iron Man? And the business owner whose motive is that he wants a lucrative contract is an example of leftist ideology being crushed?
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May 5, 2021 15:29
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Iron Man 2 is impossible for me to remember except for Sam Rockwell acting goofy and sniffing a defective smart bomb like it was a fine cigar.
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May 5, 2021 15:30
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Lord_Magmar posted:
it's just very insultingly liberal. black people in America or elsewhere don't need opportunity, they need the money and power that has been denied them for generations as their labor and natural resources have been exploited by colonial powers
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May 5, 2021 15:31
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:At least 4: Iron Man 2, one of them Spider-Man movies, Capt. America TV show and Black Panther. Endgame and Infinity War are exceptions because they take the radical position of just agreeing with the villain. Whiplash wants to hurt Tony Stark because Tony Stark's father hurt his father, he's never shown any interest in anything leftist he just wants to be the one with the money and fame. Neither Spider-Man villain works for this, one is explicitly upper-middle class who thinks he deserves money and power and is willing to do whatever he can for them and the other is an embittered ex-employee (which yeah not a good look) who thinks he should be the next Tony Stark. Also I really don't think Endgame or Infinity War agree with Thanos, they just don't think that it's okay to undo 5 years of life to save the people he killed. grieving for Gandalf posted:it's just very insultingly liberal. black people in America or elsewhere don't need opportunity, they need the money and power that has been denied them for generations as their labor and natural resources have been exploited by colonial powers I agree, as someone from a people who have been denied culture and history myself. I just think that Wakanda doing outreach is a much better solution to the inequality than just arming people with super weapons and saying go wild, their outreach could be better and they could throw their political weight around pretty heavily to tear down institutional issues, but the idea that the only successful way to create revolution is violence is something I think we can agree is pretty dismissive. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:37 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Who is the leftist in Iron Man? And the business owner whose motive is that he wants a lucrative contract is an example of leftist ideology being crushed? Not saying he was leftist per se but that the film's framing that you have to kill people who violate your copyrights is both insanely reactionary and followed up on in a couple of movies.
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May 5, 2021 15:32
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Not saying he was leftist per se but that the film's framing that you have to kill people who violate your copyrights is both insanely reactionary and followed up on in a couple of movies. I'm pretty sure it's if someone is trying to kill you you're allowed to use equal rights. I don't think Tony would give a poo poo if Ivan had made a successful armour/arc reactor and used it to make money, or maybe he would, that's not what Ivan does. Ivan attempts to murder Tony Stark the second they meet.
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May 5, 2021 15:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'm pretty sure it's if someone is trying to kill you you're allowed to use equal rights. I don't think Tony would give a poo poo if Ivan had made a successful armour/arc reactor and used it to make money, or maybe he would, that's not what Ivan does. Ivan attempts to murder Tony Stark the second they meet. Lord_Magmar posted:Whiplash wants to hurt Tony Stark because Tony Stark's father hurt his father, he's never shown any interest in anything leftist he just wants to be the one with the money and fame. Lord_Magmar posted:You don't get to use cinematic analysis to twist around what the movie portrays directly. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:38 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:35
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Halloween Jack posted:Whiplash tells Stark to his face that his assassination attempt was instrumental: he wanted to foster resistance to the American military industrial complex. Wait seriously, I do not remember this. That's super fair if so and I retract my statement, I just remember Ivan wanting to kill Tony and have the money and fame denied to his father. Which are understandable goals especially wanting what your family was denied by the actions of a rich rear end in a top hat. Tearing apart Tony's life because of it seems kind of a dick move is all. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:40 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:37
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Vanko does frame this in terms of holding Stark, specifically, accountable for his crimes. Then he ends the interview by telling Tony that he knows he's dying painfully--meaning simple revenge is not his goal.
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May 5, 2021 15:43
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Halloween Jack posted:Vanko does frame this in terms of holding Stark, specifically, accountable for his crimes. Then he ends the interview by telling Tony that he knows he's dying painfully--meaning simple revenge is not his goal. Neat, I wonder if he's considered killing Tony Stark and tearing apart his legacy might empower the Military Industrial Complex, not weaken it, because Tony is currently refusing to share his knowledge and technology with the MIC. At least, outside letting Rhodey take a suit because Tony thinks he's dying. Thank you for reminding me of part of the story I forgot. I still don't particularly think Ivan Vanko has Leftist ideology, as you can frame/understand his actions around his desire to hurt and destroy Tony/Howard Stark and everything Tony/Howard Stark's legacy involves (including the Military Industrial Complex his family spent decades supporting), but it is fair to consider that he is doing things for reasons other than revenge and that those can include a general desire to destroy the MIC. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:46
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Lord_Magmar posted:Wait seriously, I do not remember this. That's super fair if so and I retract my statement, I just remember Ivan wanting to kill Tony and have the money and fame denied to his father. Which are understandable goals especially wanting what your family was denied by the actions of a rich rear end in a top hat. Tearing apart Tony's life because of it seems kind of a dick move is all. Ivan doesn't show or express any interest in money or fame. He is a super-genius, he built his own arch reactor under even worse conditions than Tony. He could swim in money if he wanted to. All Ivan wants is his berd.
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May 5, 2021 15:49
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Tony is the MIC, doofus. Raytheon refusing to share trade secrets with Boeing isn't a blow against the MIC.
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May 5, 2021 15:49
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Halloween Jack posted:Tony is the MIC, doofus. Raytheon refusing to share trade secrets with Boeing isn't a blow against the MIC. I guess, I feel like Tony categorically shutting down all weapon's development (except his personal suits) and choosing to focus entirely on what I want to say is clean energy production (it never really comes up what Stark Tech actually sells, except the BARF thing which seems to be for helping with therapy) kind of makes him no longer part of the MIC or even the MIC itself, especially when he's actively denying the Army and other weapon's development companies access to his personal suit technology. But, this is an angle I had not considered, still not sure I agree but I certainly feel like I've got some perspective on Ivan and why people feel about him this way. Grendels Dad posted:Ivan doesn't show or express any interest in money or fame. He is a super-genius, he built his own arch reactor under even worse conditions than Tony. He could swim in money if he wanted to. And hurting the Stark Legacy, but also fair point on this I was misremembering the movie and for that I apologise. Oh also doesn't Ivan basically use Hammer (who is definitely wanting to produce Iron Man suits for the American Military and his own immense profit) and his factories to make drone soldiers that he sells to Hammer as being superior operators than humans that can be sold to the military but intends to have them mass bomb the Stark expo out of a desire to hurt Strark's legacy, even though at that point he would believe that Tony is dead in a ditch? Honestly it's been such a long time I definitely don't remember every individual bit of minutae about the motivations besides the broad strokes, that as have been proven can be misremembered. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:58 on May 5, 2021 |
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May 5, 2021 15:54
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Just imagine that the Stark legacy is referring to like, the DuPonts. This is your hero? Some guy who inherited a fortune from raining ordinance on the third world? We're asked to care about his family legacy(???)
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May 5, 2021 15:59
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Halloween Jack posted:Stark interviews Vanko after the assassination attempt. He's baffled that Vanko didn't just sell his weapons for money, like he does. Vanko explains that the purpose of the assassination attempt was to foster resistance to the America military industrial complex. That's not what he says. He says that Stark and his family have stolen and ruined lives, then goes on to talk about how angry he is that his father's genius was lost to history and everyone only knows the name Stark.
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May 5, 2021 15:59
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